"Sugar-coated Gospel" can only produce "Cheap Grace"

bcbsr

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Itis free og charge in terms of money only , It actually cost you this life !

It is not about "Work " but about "Will "

This is a decision first to have full repentance of our past sinful life and "want" (not "work ") to turns away from our old life to let Holy Spirit to complete the "Work ".

You see ,no " Work " involved .
We are saved because of our Decision ("Will " not "Work")
Then allow Holy Spirit to "Work " Our "Will" to allow Holy Spirit to control us.

We are not saved by Work , but we are not saved by nothing .

We are saved by the "Will " to repent and "willing" to be transformed by GOD.

Something cost you nothing is nothing to you.
I agree that it's about attitude rather than actual performance. We all fall short if measured by the standard of perfect performance.
 
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SaintCody777

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"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man boast."

Salvation has nothing to do with my performance and everything to do with what Jesus did for me. I trust that in him I have remission of sins, therefore I forsake my righteousness and receive freely his righteousness.

One cannot be saved if they go about to establish their own righteousness by being obedient, rather than submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God by faith (Romans 10:1-3). The Bible is clear that there is not a just man upon the earth that does good and does not sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20), for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Therefore we have peace with God through faith in Christ (Romans 5:1-2). It is what He did, not what we try to do, for it is by his obedience we have justification, not our obedience in the letter (Romans 5:18), that is to say, holiness by the putting away of the filthiness of the flesh. However, he that receives Christ by faith is obedient to the gospel (Romans 10:16-17). They have not all obeyed in that they have not believed Jesus.
While that's true, look at the very next verse Ephesians 2:9, the 10th verse says the God enables born again believers to do good works after they initially place their trust in Jesus. No amount of works after salvation count (Romans 4:4-5 and Ephesians 2:8-9), but the believer becomes a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 12:1-2). This means he will desire to not sin anymore, though it is inevitable that to at least some degree they will struggle with sin and stumble (2 Corinthians 5:1-6 and Romans 7), just like how believers in Earth can still get ill or wounded just like other Earthy human being. He will also love the things that God loves and hated the things He hates.
The false gospel that corrupts people is that you can just take Jesus as a ticket to heaven. What those who preach and where to this kind of gospel does not know, is that Jesus did not come just to save us from the PENALTY for our sins but also from our BONDAGE to sin.
 
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aiki

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Many Churchgoers are not born-again Christians because of sugar-coated Gospel.

Yes, I agree. Many attending churches are also false converts because they have been given a false Gospel that lays upon them burdens of performance and fear and diminishes the perfect atoning work of Christ at the cross. So, yes, the Gospel does get "sugar-coated" but it also gets coupled to legalistic things that have no part whatever in how a person is saved (ie. good works).

There are 2 parts in the true Gospel :
1. crucified and buried in Christ , died to old self , repent and turn away from old life ( inconvenient part of Gospel)
2. Regeneration by Holy spirit to a born-again life .

The Gospel, as I read of it in Scripture, looks like this:

Four Main Steps in sharing the Gospel:

1.) The Warning:

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death...

John 3:36 (NKJV)
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Romans 2:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds"


Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,


Matthew 16:27 (NKJV)
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


2.) The Message:

– God is perfectly holy. (Deut. 32:3, 4; 1Jn. 1:5)
– We are wicked sinners. (Jer. 17:9; Isa. 53:6; Ro. 3:23)
– Our sin separates us from God. (Ps. 5:4; Isa. 59:2; Ps. 1:5, 6)
– God offers to us reconciliation to Himself through Jesus Christ (Ro. 6:23; Jn.
3:16, 17; Col. 1:13-14; 1 Pe. 2:21-24; Isa. 53
)
– If by faith we receive Christ as our Saviour, we will be saved from the just
punishment of our sin and be reconciled to God. (Ro. 8:9, 10; 1Jn. 5:11-13
; Jn. 3:16
)
– Receiving Christ as one's Saviour involves a change of mind and behaviour, a
confessing of one's sins and a forsaking of them, and a turning to a life centered
upon Christ. (Matt 4:17; Mk. 1:15; Acts 2:38; 17:30; 1Jn. 1:8,9; Ja. 4:6-10)

3.) The Call:

2 Corinthians 6:2 (NKJV)
2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Matthew 9:12-13 (NKJV)
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."


2 Timothy 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called
us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Matthew 11:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."


Revelation 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

4.) The Counting:

Luke 14:25-33

Matthew 16:24-26 (NKJV)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


Colossians 3:2-10 (NKJV)
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ
who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,


However preachers want to increase the success rate of "conversion " , watering down the importance of crucified and buried the old self as the first step to salvation.

Yes, and others want to make the gift of salvation something that must be earned.

But what defines believe !
Not just "know" a historical person came to this world with a mission .
I believe aspirin is a good drug but I fear of the side effects of the drug and dare not to take it. Then the drug can't help you.

A saving faith is one that anticipates corresponding action; it is a faith that expects that what is believed will be manifested in how one thinks, feels and behaves; it is a faith that arises from the heart, not merely the head and steps out fully onto (and into) the "bridge of salvation" who is Christ, holding nothing back.
 
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Gideons300

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I think you are way too generous when you say "many churchgoers are not born again", I would say the vast majority are not born-again.

In the early days of Christianity, there was one passage of the Bible which held special significance for Christ's followers. This was Matthew chapters 5 through 7, which is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount. This sermon was used as a catechism for new believers, and it formed much of the foundation for early Christian doctrine and practice. These first Christians believed that this sermon was meant to be taken literally and obeyed explicitly, and it became a defining factor of the very essence of Christianity.

What do you think would happen if we would form a church which, rather than trying to follow the Sermon on the Mount, we would instead violate it? What would happen if we would look at each major issue discussed in this sermon and then do the exact opposite of what it teaches? How would such a church look?

Take a brief look at just a few of the topics discussed in the Sermon on the Mount and try to imagine what a deliberate violation would look like. Then, in light of this list, take an honest assessment of our own Christian lives, of our church, and of American Christianity as a whole.

When the Sermon on the Mount says that God's blessings belong to those who are poor in spirit, meek, and hungry after righteousness, we would fill our pews with proud, self-satisfied members.

When the Sermon on the Mount says we should be salt and light in this world, we would do our best to "fit in" with the unbelievers around us so as not to offend them.

When the Sermon on the Mount says that "he who looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery", we would put up with a high percentage of our church's leaders and members being addicted to inappropriate contentography and the filth that comes from the TV.

When the Sermon on the Mount condemns divorce as evil, the divorce rate in our church would be as high or higher than that of the non-Christians around us.

When the Sermon on the Mount forbids the remarriage of divorced persons, our church would both perform marriages of those who were previously divorced and also receive into membership remarried individuals with former spouses still living.

When the Sermon on the Mount says we should "swear not at all," we would willingly take oaths without a twinge of conscience and pledge allegiance to a flag.

When the Sermon on the Mount says "let your yes be yes and your no be no", we would tolerate blatant dishonesty whenever that was the most convenient path.

When the Sermon on the Mount commands us to love our enemies, our church would be among the strongest supporters of our nation's military power.

When the Sermon on the Mount commands us to "resist not evil", we would encourage our members to keep weapons in their homes for use in self-defense and to resist evil everywhere.

When the Sermon on the Mount says "when (not if) ye fast", members of our church would almost never practice fasting.

When the Sermon on the Mount forbids us to lay up treasures on earth, we would encourage our members to accumulate wealth in savings accounts, retirement plans, and other investments and even bring money gurus into the church to teach that it is okay.

When the Sermon on the Mount commands us to lay up treasures in Heaven (by giving to the needy), we would deny or ignore the fact that helping the poor is an integral part of true Christian faith and even complain about the person on the corner with their hand out.

When the Sermon on the Mount says that we cannot serve God and mammon (wealth), we would teach that God expects His children to be rich in earthly possessions.

When the Sermon on the Mount speaks of the road to Heaven being strait (difficult) and narrow, our church would teach that anyone who has ever prayed a sinner's prayer will certainly make it into Heaven.

When the Sermon on the Mount says that the difference between building on the rock and building on sand is obedience to Christ's commands, our church would teach that mental assent and verbal profession to a creed (with no real change in our life) would be all that was needed to be "on the Rock".

As you meditate on these thoughts and allow God to speak to you through them, please consider these words from His Holy Word:

Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and don't do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)

By these we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that says, I know him, and doesn't keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4)

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write . . . because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth. Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. (Revelation 3:14-17)

Therefore come out from among them, and be separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:17-18)
Excellent post. One thing I would like to add. It concerns those words of Jesus when He asked why we called Him "Lord, Lord" and not do those things He commands us.

He did not say "try to do those things I command you". Nor did He say "do those things 70% of the time." He said 'do'. So, we have to understand this is not a "try" situation. He actually expects us to do. And are we?

Even those who see the deep malaise affecting the church and who are sincerely seeking to obey our God need to ask themselves "Why are we not able to truly DO, even when we want to?"

We are even now being awakened to that answer and for those who truly long to be holy, to walk free from sin, free from the power that self holds over us, free indeed, they are about to discover the HOW of holiness.

And for those who have no inner desire to walk obediently to the Lord who died for them, who want His forgiveness, who want Him as savior but have no desire to lose their self life and no plans on walking with Him as their Lord, their darkness is about to grow with a vengeance.

We are all entering the valley of decision, and those who are truly His are about to discover God's promise to actually cause us to obey Him.

As Yoda says "No more try. Only do." ☺️ Glory!

blessings,

Gids
 
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BNR32FAN

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Many Churchgoers are not born-again Christians because of sugar-coated Gospel.
There are 2 parts in the true Gospel :
1. crucified and buried in Christ , died to old self , repent and turn away from old life ( inconvenient part of Gospel)
2. Regeneration by Holy spirit to a born-again life .

However preachers want to increase the success rate of "conversion " , watering down the importance of crucified and buried the old self as the first step to salvation.

Only mention you believe Jesus is the Saviour , then you will be saved and go to Heaven.

But what defines believe !
Not just "know" a historical person came to this world with a mission .
I believe aspirin is a good drug but I fear of the side effects of the drug and dare not to take it. Then the drug can't help you.

I agree, too many pastors fail to teach what it means to abide in Christ. The concept of receiving salvation by simply believing integrated with eternal security leads many to believe that once a person has believed they have been saved and no matter what they do afterwards they will still receive salvation. Abiding in Christ, being born again and becoming a new creation, and walking in the Spirit have all been completely removed as requirements for salvation. These are all now taught as optional behavior of a Christian. Many simply read one or two verses from the books of the gospel and epistles and build their theology based upon only bits and pieces of the message that these books are conveying, ignoring everything else that doesn’t fit into their theology. For example they might read John 3:16 and say I’m saved because I believe and I don’t need to do anything other than believe because it says right here in John 3:16 that believing is the only requirement for salvation. Then they either have to twist John 15 into saying what they need in order to fit into their theology or just disregard it completely. Another example would be Ephesians 2:8. Paul says I am saved by grace thru faith I don’t have to do anything else to receive salvation. Then they either twist Ephesians 5:1-5 to fit their theology or disregard it completely. I’ve often said this, that this kind of cherry picking scriptures is much like if someone were to read one sentence out of the driver’s license handbook and said “Look it says right here I can get my driver’s license at the age of 16.” Just because the statement says you can get it at the age of 16 doesn’t mean there are no other requirements. If you keep reading you will notice that you must be a resident of that state, you must have completed a driver’s education course, you must pass both a written exam and driving test, and you must pay the appropriate fee. Being of legal age is only the first requirement not the only requirement. In a similar way believing in Christ is simply the first requirement not the only requirement. We must also abide in Christ. This means we will bear much fruit and refrain from sin.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB
 
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BNR32FAN

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Excellent post. One thing I would like to add. It concerns those words of Jesus when He asked why we called Him "Lord, Lord" and not do those things He commands us.

He did not say "try to do those things I command you". Nor did He say "do those things 70% of the time." He said 'do'. So, we have to understand this is not a "try" situation. He actually expects us to do. And are we?

Even those who see the deep malaise affecting the church and who are sincerely seeking to obey our God need to ask themselves "Why are we not able to truly DO, even when we want to?"

We are even now being awakened to that answer and for those who truly long to be holy, to walk free from sin, free from the power that self holds over us, free indeed, they are about to discover the HOW of holiness.

And for those who have no inner desire to walk obediently to the Lord who died for them, who want His forgiveness, who want Him as savior but have no desire to lose their self life and no plans on walking with Him as their Lord, their darkness is about to grow with a vengeance.

We are all entering the valley of decision, and those who are truly His are about to discover God's promise to actually cause us to obey Him.

As Yoda says "No more try. Only do." ☺️ Glory!

blessings,

Gids

Bless you brother, I believe 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is very relevant to those who are seeking to bear fruit out of their desire to please God as well as their love for others. Even when they fail they are still building on the foundation of Christ. Whether or not their works have any value doesn’t play a factor in whether or not they will be saved only whether or not they will receive rewards in heaven according to their deeds.
 
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Yes, I agree. Many attending churches are also false converts because they have been given a false Gospel that lays upon them burdens of performance and fear and diminishes the perfect atoning work of Christ at the cross. So, yes, the Gospel does get "sugar-coated" but it also gets coupled to legalistic things that have no part whatever in how a person is saved (ie. good works).



The Gospel, as I read of it in Scripture, looks like this:

Four Main Steps in sharing the Gospel:

1.) The Warning:

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin
is death...

John 3:36 (NKJV)
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Romans 2:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds"


Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,


Matthew 16:27 (NKJV)
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



2.) The Message:

– God is perfectly holy. (Deut. 32:3, 4; 1Jn. 1:5)
– We are wicked sinners. (Jer. 17:9; Isa. 53:6; Ro. 3:23)
– Our sin separates us from God. (Ps. 5:4; Isa. 59:2; Ps. 1:5, 6)
– God offers to us reconciliation to Himself through Jesus Christ (Ro. 6:23; Jn.
3:16, 17; Col. 1:13-14; 1 Pe. 2:21-24; Isa. 53
)
– If by faith we receive Christ as our Saviour, we will be saved from the just
punishment of our sin and be reconciled to God. (Ro. 8:9, 10; 1Jn. 5:11-13
; Jn. 3:16
)
– Receiving Christ as one's Saviour involves a change of mind and behaviour, a
confessing of one's sins and a forsaking of them, and a turning to a life centered
upon Christ. (Matt 4:17; Mk. 1:15; Acts 2:38; 17:30; 1Jn. 1:8,9; Ja. 4:6-10)

3.) The Call:

2 Corinthians 6:2 (NKJV)
2 For He says:
"In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Matthew 9:12-13 (NKJV)
12 When Jesus heard
that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."


2 Timothy 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called
us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Matthew 11:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Come to Me, all
you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."


Revelation 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


4.) The Counting:

Luke 14:25-33

Matthew 16:24-26 (NKJV)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


Colossians 3:2-10 (NKJV)
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ
who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,




Yes, and others want to make the gift of salvation something that must be earned.



A saving faith is one that anticipates corresponding action; it is a faith that expects that what is believed will be manifested in how one thinks, feels and behaves; it is a faith that arises from the heart, not merely the head and steps out fully onto (and into) the "bridge of salvation" who is Christ, holding nothing back.

I’m curious friend what is your interpretation of these verses?

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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While that's true, look at the very next verse Ephesians 2:9, the 10th verse says the God enables born again believers to do good works after they initially place their trust in Jesus. No amount of works after salvation count (Romans 4:4-5 and Ephesians 2:8-9), but the believer becomes a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 12:1-2). This means he will desire to not sin anymore, though it is inevitable that to at least some degree they will struggle with sin and stumble (2 Corinthians 5:1-6 and Romans 7), just like how believers in Earth can still get ill or wounded just like other Earthy human being. He will also love the things that God loves and hated the things He hates.
The false gospel that corrupts people is that you can just take Jesus as a ticket to heaven. What those who preach and where to this kind of gospel does not know, is that Jesus did not come just to save us from the PENALTY for our sins but also from our BONDAGE to sin.
Good works and holy conversation are profitable unto the believer, but are not a requirement of salvation. Salvation is a free gift given by God; that means that there is nothing we can do to earn, and nothing can be done to lose it.

You say, "Jesus isn't a ticket to heaven." But Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, the only strait gate that men must enter to be saved. Few there are who find and trust in him. All who go to be with him when they die will owe all to him because he paid it all. Obedience to the letter and self-righteousness, while good, do not have any bearing upon our salvation. It can't, otherwise nobody could be saved. Nobody is good enough, except Jesus.
 
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aiki

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I’m curious friend what is your interpretation of these verses?

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What is my take on this passage from John 15? Well, there's a lot in it to talk about. Let's see...

I have come to see that John 15:2 is generally badly understood. The phrase rendered "takes away" in the verse is, in Greek, "airo," the primary meaning of which is to "lift up" or "take up" or "carry," not "takes away" or remove. The idea of lifting up an unfruitful branch accords far better with the viticultural practices of the time in which Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 15 than does the idea of pruning off the branch. Gary W. Derickson has written a very interesting article on this matter (Viticulture and John 15:1-6), showing that "takes away" is not an accurate rendering of "airo." I think he's right.

John 15:6 also does not refer to a saved person becoming lost but to an unsaved person and his final end. Nothing in the verse indicates that I must understand it to refer to a saved person. All believers are placed in Christ - and he in them - when they are saved. Being in Christ is virtually synonymous with being born-again. And so, when Christ speaks of one who is not in him, I understand him to mean one who has never been saved. Certainly, that such a person is "cast forth" from Christ (ie. "depart from me, I never knew you") and burned (aka. tormented in hell) appears to bear out this reading.

So, neither verse 2 nor verse 6 actually support the notion of being saved-and-lost.

Christ goes on to say that bearing fruit isn't the means of salvation but the manifestation, the fruit, of salvation (verse 8). By good works his disciples prove they are his, Jesus says, but he doesn't say that by good works they become or remain his disciples. And then Jesus gives a brief lecture on the centrality of sacrificial love to Christian living. I particularly appreciate his comment in verse 16 where he says,

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit..."

Here Jesus anchors what he has said, not to the disciples' ability to do perfectly what he has commanded, but to his choosing and appointing of the disciples to bear spiritual fruit. Their relationship with him was his doing, his work, his sovereign appointment, not the product of their effort or of their initiation.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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There is this same topic in another thread. I keep asking for clarification on how this works. We talk about living in sin and when Jesus said go and sin more....
He said that to a woman caught in adultery. He didn’t say that to anyone else. Surly never committing adultery again is not difficult. Many never do their whole lives.
Jesus taught not to sin so if we do sin we have failed. Doesn’t matter if it was once or 1000 times.
Where is it written that we mustn’t fail? And one time or 1000 times matters a whole lot to God and our victims.
We are simply law breakers who can only be saved by Jesus.
Time to think of someone besides ourselves.
So if it is true that it’s performance based unless a person has become perfection in their daily living then they don’t meet the criteria to be saved. That means nobody makes it
Its relationship based.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Good works and holy conversation are profitable unto the believer, but are not a requirement of salvation. Salvation is a free gift given by God; that means that there is nothing we can do to earn, and nothing can be done to lose it.
Every present we received in life is not earned but that doesn’t mean we can’t lose them. A man certainly can neglect his salvation to the point of losing it.
You say, "Jesus isn't a ticket to heaven." But Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, the only strait gate that men must enter to be saved. Few there are who find and trust in him. All who go to be with him when they die will owe all to him because he paid it all.
“if you love me you’ll keep (do) my teaching.”
Obedience to the letter and self-righteousness, while good, do not have any bearing upon our salvation.
It has direct bearing on knowing God. And knowing God IS eternal life. (I do notice that you’ve cleverly stuck in the high standard of “to the letter.” What about direct obedience to God without any self-righteousness? What obedience out of love?)
It can't, otherwise nobody could be saved. Nobody is good enough, except Jesus.
Salvation isn’t the goal. Walking with God is the goal.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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He said that to a woman caught in adultery. He didn’t say that to anyone else. Surly never committing adultery again is not difficult. Many never do their whole lives.
Where is it written that we mustn’t fail? And one time or 1000 times matters a whole lot to God and our victims.
Time to think of someone besides ourselves.
Its relationship based.
How words go and sin no more. Why does everybody keep reading between the lines and giving their opinion on scripture. He doesn’t specify. He says go and sin no more. If someone says go and lie no more, if someone says go get angry no more we would read between the lines. So why when Jesus says go and sin no more performance based people say he didn’t really mean no more? We can all start reading between the lines and some up with all kinds of stuff I guess.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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How words go and sin no more. Why does everybody keep reading between the lines and giving their opinion on scripture. He doesn’t specify. He says go and sin no more. If someone says go and lie no more, if someone says go get angry no more we would read between the lines. So why when Jesus says go and sin no more performance based people say he didn’t really mean no more? We can all start reading between the lines and some up with all kinds of stuff I guess.
We are reading what he says to whom, the only person he says that to, and you accuse us of reading between the lines. You seem to be failing to read the lines at all in my view. He told one woman caught in adultery she was forgiven and ought to not do that again. You want it to mean to everyone about every sin.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-22 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:1-22 - King James Version

You have believed in vain if Christ is not risen. You are yet in your sins. Nothing to do with what you are talking about.
Your interpretation makes no sense. If Christ is not risen, paul’s faith is in vain. Therefore if he meant what you say, he’d have said that Everyone’s faith including his own is in vain.

He wrote that they needed to keep the teaching they’d heard or THEIR faith would be in vain. Just their faith and not because there is no resurrection.

The subsequent paragraph is one example of how they weren’t keeping the teaching they’d heard and it made no sense. This is like the teaching many hold today that makes no sense. Not keeping to the teaching of scripture can make anyone’s faith in vain. Means believing the wrong things, even sincerely, can mean the faith was in vain.
 
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Your interpretation makes no sense. If Christ is not risen, paul’s faith is in vain. Therefore if he meant what you say, he’d have said that Everyone’s faith including his own is in vain.

He wrote that they needed to keep the teaching they’d heard or THEIR faith would be in vain. Just their faith and not because there is no resurrection.

The subsequent paragraph is one example of how they weren’t keeping the teaching they’d heard and it made no sense. This is like the teaching many hold today that makes no sense. Not keeping to the teaching of scripture can make anyone’s faith in vain. Means believing the wrong things, even sincerely, can mean the faith was in vain.
Okay if thats what you think, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. I'm not going to try to convince you, friend. That would be a waste of my time.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Okay if thats what you think, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
This is exactly how people’s faith is in vain. They think it’s OK to be firmly convinced of untruth. In the end Jesus says “depart.”

Paul loved people enough to want them to believe the truth and wrote many letters to that effect. We can all be very grateful he didn’t have your viewpoint.

I'm not going to try to convince you, friend. That would be a waste of my time.
Sure glad not a single writer of the Bible nor the Apostles thought like that. We’d have no NT if they had and the Gospel would have died with them since your view is not to try help others see the truth but leave others in deception for the sake of peace and friendliness.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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We are reading what he says to whom, the only person he says that to, and you accuse us of reading between the lines. You seem to be failing to read the lines at all in my view. He told one woman caught in adultery she was forgiven and ought to not do that again. You want it to mean to everyone about every sin.
I’m sorry if I’m coming across as failing to read the lines at all. I guess it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me when I read what everyone is saying and clearly the statements being made aren’t accurate. I really don’t worry much about agreeing or disagreeing more so I just like that things make sense. You keep saying Jesus only said that one time but in John 5:14 he tells a man to stop sinning after he had healed him earlier in Bethesda. So did he mean for the man to stop sinning or did he mean for the man to stop sinning sometimes?
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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While that's true, look at the very next verse Ephesians 2:9, the 10th verse says the God enables born again believers to do good works after they initially place their trust in Jesus. No amount of works after salvation count (Romans 4:4-5 and Ephesians 2:8-9), but the believer becomes a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 12:1-2). This means he will desire to not sin anymore, though it is inevitable that to at least some degree they will struggle with sin and stumble (2 Corinthians 5:1-6 and Romans 7), just like how believers in Earth can still get ill or wounded just like other Earthy human being. He will also love the things that God loves and hated the things He hates.
The false gospel that corrupts people is that you can just take Jesus as a ticket to heaven. What those who preach and where to this kind of gospel does not know, is that Jesus did not come just to save us from the PENALTY for our sins but also from our BONDAGE to sin.
Did Jesus say it’s inevitable that we would continue to sin or did he say don’t sin? Are we supposed to read between the lines to know he didn’t mean really stop sinning? Or did he mean try to it sin? Or did he mean exactly what he said which is don’t sin? I’m really curious and not trying to argue. I really don’t understand myself
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Excellent post. One thing I would like to add. It concerns those words of Jesus when He asked why we called Him "Lord, Lord" and not do those things He commands us.

He did not say "try to do those things I command you". Nor did He say "do those things 70% of the time." He said 'do'. So, we have to understand this is not a "try" situation. He actually expects us to do. And are we?

Even those who see the deep malaise affecting the church and who are sincerely seeking to obey our God need to ask themselves "Why are we not able to truly DO, even when we want to?"

We are even now being awakened to that answer and for those who truly long to be holy, to walk free from sin, free from the power that self holds over us, free indeed, they are about to discover the HOW of holiness.

And for those who have no inner desire to walk obediently to the Lord who died for them, who want His forgiveness, who want Him as savior but have no desire to lose their self life and no plans on walking with Him as their Lord, their darkness is about to grow with a vengeance.

We are all entering the valley of decision, and those who are truly His are about to discover God's promise to actually cause us to obey Him.

As Yoda says "No more try. Only do." ☺️ Glory!

blessings,

Gids
So you think there the expectation is perfection and not occasional sin that one would struggle with?
 
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