Sadducces : atheist priests

Even the term "born again" is rooted in a specific brand of radical reformation Protestant theology so the idea that it would make a good measuring stick for the overwhelming majority of Christians (that is, those who are Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican etc) makes no sense.

It seems to be just another self-referential platitude like "being slain in the spirit" is in Pentecostal circles that doesn't carry much weight outside of those religious in-groups. It's not exactly a metric for how devout a Christian is or how theologically well read they are.

crossnote said:

Not concerning the fundamentals, no.
Concerning non fundamentals, yes.

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So basically, are you saying that people who believe differently than you are horrible people who are going to hell?

It's real,

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Nah.

But it was not originally created for man but rather for the devil and his crew.

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By "crew", I assume you mean demons?

awitch said:

So basically, are you saying that people who believe differently than you are horrible people who are going to hell?

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(I like your questions, very pertinent). No, all have sinned, no matter how good a life they live and will go to hell apart from the free forgiveness found in Jesus Christ.
The only way God has provided is through His Son Jesus Christ. It is in His mercy that He even sacrificed His Son, when He didn't have to in the first place. He could have picked up His marbles and gone home (figuratively speaking).

crossnote said:

(I like your questions, very pertinent).

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They are sincere, and I appreciate your time to answer them.

No, all have sinned, no matter how good a life they live and will go to hell apart from the free forgiveness found in Jesus Christ.

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But you said liberal Christians were "the worst".

Just wanted to pursue that last line of questioning...the devil's crew referred to demons?

awitch said:

But you said liberal Christians were "the worst".

Just wanted to pursue that last line of questioning...the devil's crew referred to demons?

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By worst, I mean the theological liberal's deception runs deepest, and is hardest to discern, appearing like the authentic their deception easily entraps the unwary. At least an atheist or a pagan like yourself poses a marked contrast from what is true to Scripture,...tls have a lot of grey areas.

On that last point...
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41) ...so yes, demons.

crossnote said:

On that last point...
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41) ...so yes, demons.

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And demons are fallen angels of God? They rebelled?

awitch said:

And demons are fallen angels of God? They rebelled?

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yes.

crossnote said:

yes.

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How many do you speculate exist?
Do angels continue to rebel to this day?

awitch said:

How many do you speculate exist?

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I have no idea.

Do angels continue to rebel to this day?

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Only the ones who were in the original rebellion.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(Jud 1:6)

crossnote said:

I have no idea.

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Not holding you to any number in particular, just speculation. A dozen? A hundred? A thousand?

Only the ones who were in the original rebellion.

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Original implies there was more than one.

awitch said:

Not holding you to any number in particular, just speculation. A dozen? A hundred? A thousand?



Original implies there was more than one.

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Yes one rebellion.

Myriads...“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” (NASB) Rev. 5:10-12

crossnote said:

Yes one rebellion.

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And was hell a thing before the rebellion or was it created in response to it?

awitch said:

And was hell a thing before the rebellion or was it created in response to it?

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God being eternal and knowing the beginning and end of all things...
But speaking in finite terms I would imagine hell was created 'after'.
I don't recall that detail being mentioned in Scripture but maybe someone here may recall if it is.

crossnote said:

God being eternal and knowing the beginning and end of all things...

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Prior to the rebellion, these angelic entities' relationship with God would not have been based on faith, right? They "lived" in heaven and had direct contact with God. To them, God's existence was well established and unquestionable, and they had detailed knowledge of his nature and capacities, yes?

awitch said:

Prior to the rebellion, these angelic entities' relationship with God would not have been based on faith, right? They "lived" in heaven and had direct contact with God. To them, God's existence was well established and unquestionable, and they had detailed knowledge of his nature and capacities, yes?

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I'm not sure about the 'not have been based on faith' part, since God is eternal and invisible (apart from Jesus Christ) whereas angels are finite and created. Perhaps the main mode of 'faith' would be through God's Word. So they may have seen a manifestation of God but I highly doubt they actually 'saw' the Eternal One, Who is Spirit. John 4:24

crossnote said:

I'm not sure about the 'not have been based on faith' part, since God is eternal and invisible (apart from Jesus Christ) whereas angels are finite and created. Perhaps the main mode of 'faith' would be through God's Word. So they may have seen a manifestation of God but I highly doubt they actually 'saw' the Eternal One, Who is Spirit. John 4:24

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Maybe not "saw' God visually in the sense of light reflecting into their eyes etc, but the angels would have no question that God existed. His existence was established, irrefutable fact. They would have interactions with God and know his capabilities and qualities.

awitch said:

Maybe not "saw' God visually in the sense of light reflecting into their eyes etc, but the angels would have no question that God existed. His existence was established, irrefutable fact. They would have interactions with God and know his capabilities and qualities.

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Sure, they worship Him continually...

Revelation 7:11 NKJV
[11] All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

crossnote said:

Sure, they worship Him continually...

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So don't you find it odd that countless angels with proof of God and far more intimate knowledge of his nature than any human could hope to know would rebel against him, KNOWING they had no chance? The rebellion would have been a stage show, done out of principal. God's own court embraced an eternity of torture out of objection.

I propose THAT is a far greater sacrifice than Jesus ever was.

awitch said:

So don't you find it odd that countless angels with proof of God and far more intimate knowledge of his nature than any human could hope to know would rebel against him, KNOWING they had no chance? The rebellion would have been a stage show, done out of principal. God's own court embraced an eternity of torture out of objection.

I propose THAT is a far greater sacrifice than Jesus ever was.

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satan's sacrifice was unintentional and self centered. Jesus' sacrifice was intentional and selfless.

crossnote said:

satan's sacrifice was unintentional and self centered. Jesus' sacrifice was intentional and selfless.

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Satan and his myriad of followers didn't accidentally rebel; they knew they would lose and they knew what the consequences would be. They willingly surrendered an eternity in heaven.