When does one lose salvation?

DM25 said:

Not at all dude... Please explain why you think that.

Click to expand...

Well it’s because Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. He also said anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

So when Jesus says something I don’t disagree with it. I take it for what He said, the way He said it.

DM25 said:

No no no that's an extreme form of Calvinism. But just read the verse below. He draws all men to him.

John 15:6: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you"

Click to expand...

I believe you meant John 15:16
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles.
He chose them to be fishers of men....
and ordained should really say: appointed because in our modern language ordained takes on a different meaning.

BNR32FAN said:

Well it’s because Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. He also said anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

So when Jesus says something I don’t disagree with it. I take it for what He said, the way He said it.

Click to expand...

YES!
Listening to Jesus and doing what HE said is a very good idea!

BNR32FAN said:

Well it’s because Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. He also said anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

So when Jesus says something I don’t disagree with it. I take it for what He said, the way He said it.

Click to expand...

That doesn't prove you can lose your salvation at all... Again please explain why you believe those verses mean that?

Cuts of every branch in me... Does not mean cuts all of you off and throws you in hell. Do you not see this is talking about the imperfect parts of us that does not bear good fruit? It gets taken away? This is relating to getting sanctified in the walk.... It is talking about being sanctified and the bad parts of us getting taken away. Not us losing our salvation and our whole getting thrown in the lake of fire... Don't know why you can't see that it seems pretty clear to me.

Anyone who doesn't abide in him isn't saved, correct... What does it mean to abide in him? It means to believe on the gospel... That's how we are in Jesus and abide in him, we can't lose that. It is talking to those who aren't saved, those who don't abide in him already...

And the funny thing is the corrupt versions (non KJV) twist the verse around saying "anyone who does not remain with me"... But abide in does not mean to remain in, it means to abide in Christ, to be in him, which is referring to those who are saved and in Christ already abiding in him for eternity...

Mountainmanbob said:

Sounds like being saved by works to me?
M-Bob

Click to expand...

No I don’t see it that way. Just because works are required doesn’t mean that we earned our salvation.

BNR32FAN said:

because

Click to expand...

GodsGrace101 said:

I believe you meant John 15:16
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles.
He chose them to be fishers of men....
and ordained should really say: appointed because in our modern language ordained takes on a different meaning.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. But again my original point is that salvation is a gift of God and not of ourselves. We respond with faith. But we can't lose it. It is not of works.

If someone says you can lose salvation by simply not believing in Jesus anymore, I have a little more compassion with that... But if someone says you can lose it by backsliding into sin or something you do through your works which isn't related to faith, that's where I draw the line because then it becomes of your works and what you do and then it becomes about being saved because you stopped sinning, not stopping sin because you are saved already...

Ephesians makes it clear we are not saved by works, but saved for good works.

DM25 said:

That doesn't prove you can lose your salvation at all... Again please explain why you believe those verses mean that?

Cuts of every branch in me... Does not mean cuts you off and throws you in hell. Do you not see this is talking about the imperfect parts of us? It gets taken away? This is relating to getting sanctified in the walk?

Anyone who doesn't abide in him isn't saved, correct... What does it mean to abide in him? It means to believe on the gospel... That's how we are in Jesus and abide in him, we can't lose that. It is talking to those who aren't saved, those who don't abide in him already...

And the funny thing is the corrupt versions (non KJV) twist the verse around saying "anyone who does not remain with me"... But abide in does not mean to remain in, it means to abide in Christ, to be in him, which is referring to those who are saved and in Christ already abiding in him for eternity...

Click to expand...

How can someone be saved if they are cut off from Christ?

The Greek word ménō (G3306) translated to abide means to stay or remain.

Jesus had this to say about abiding in Him. I don’t see any mention of believing the gospel. Believing the gospel is how a person becomes in Christ to begin with. Jesus does have expectations that we must meet in order to remain in Him.

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:7-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Please examine the definitions of these three Greek words that are translated in the scriptures to believe, believer, and faith.

believe

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

believer

G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

faith

G4102


G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

DM25 said:

Yes, I know. But again my original point is that salvation is a gift of God and not of ourselves. We respond with faith. But we can't lose it. It is not of works.

If someone says you can lose salvation by simply not believing in Jesus anymore, I have a little more compassion with that... But if someone says you can lose it by backsliding into sin or something you do through your works which isn't related to faith, that's where I draw the line because then it becomes of your works and what you do and then it becomes about being saved because you stopped sinning, not stopping sin because you are saved already...

Ephesians makes it clear we are not saved by works, but saved for good works.

Click to expand...

Please read the definitions of the actual Greek words that are used in the scriptures that I provided in post #227. The authors of the New Testament wrote in Greek. To fully understand the message they were trying to convey you must use the definitions of the Greek words they actually wrote. The English words do not fully encompass the definitions of the Greek words the authors of the New Testament wrote.

DM25 said:

Yes, I know. But again my original point is that salvation is a gift of God and not of ourselves. We respond with faith. But we can't lose it. It is not of works.

If someone says you can lose salvation by simply not believing in Jesus anymore, I have a little more compassion with that... But if someone says you can lose it by backsliding into sin or something you do through your works which isn't related to faith, that's where I draw the line because then it becomes of your works and what you do and then it becomes about being saved because you stopped sinning, not stopping sin because you are saved already...

Ephesians makes it clear we are not saved by works, but saved for good works.

Click to expand...

Yes Ephesians 2:8 and later in Ephesians 5:1-7 Paul writes to these very same children of God and warns them of falling into a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

DM25 said:

Yes, I know. But again my original point is that salvation is a gift of God and not of ourselves. We respond with faith. But we can't lose it. It is not of works.

If someone says you can lose salvation by simply not believing in Jesus anymore, I have a little more compassion with that... But if someone says you can lose it by backsliding into sin or something you do through your works which isn't related to faith, that's where I draw the line because then it becomes of your works and what you do and then it becomes about being saved because you stopped sinning, not stopping sin because you are saved already...

Ephesians makes it clear we are not saved by works, but saved for good works.

Click to expand...

Romans 11 Paul says to the Gentiles they have been grafted into the olive tree by God and if they are conceited God will cut them off. The Jews were grafted in and cut off for their unbelief and they will Be grafted back in if they turn away from their unbelief. Are these false professors? Surely God doesn’t graft in false professors.

“The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, "Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house and proclaim there this word and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah, who enter by these gates to worship the LORD!'" Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.' For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. "Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'-that you may do all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it, " declares the LORD.”

JEREMIAH 7:1-11 NASB


“By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

BNR32FAN said:

So no one is seeking God?

“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

No one is doing good?

“And those who repay evil for good, They oppose me, because I follow what is good.”
‭‭PSALMS‬ ‭38:20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:15-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭12:35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”
‭‭1 PETER‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.”
‭‭3 JOHN‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.”
‭‭2 THESSALONIANS‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I can come up with at least a dozen more examples. Both of the psalms begin with saying “the fool says in his heart”.

Click to expand...

You do understand there is a difference between someone who is born again doing good and someone who is lost "doing good"?

a born again person should be seeking God. Knocking on the door, inviting Him in....where as the lost don't have the ability.

BNR32FAN said:

How can someone be saved if they are cut off from Christ?

The Greek word ménō (G3306) translated to abide means to stay or remain.

Jesus had this to say about abiding in Him. I don’t see any mention of believing the gospel. Believing the gospel is how a person becomes in Christ to begin with. Jesus does have expectations that we must meet in order to remain in Him.

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:7-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Please examine the definitions of these three Greek words that are translated in the scriptures to believe, believer, and faith.

believe

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

believer

G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

faith

G4102


G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

Click to expand...

But you are twisting what the verse says... The verse doesn't say cut off from Christ. The verse says the branches are cut off... Meaning the parts of yourselves that bear bad fruit are cut off, this is a positive message about sanctification in your walk with him... It says branches, not the tree. It doesn't say you as a person are cut off from Christ. It says your branches that are bad are cut off... This is what it plainly states. Why are you saying you are cut off from Christ? When it doesn't say that. In fact your new spirit is sinless in itself so it can even be talking about all the branches of your old self being cut off.

Abiding in Christ is a one time thing... To believe on the gospel is to abide in him, to be made righteous and to be in Christ. To abide in Christ is to be saved... To not abide in him is saying you are not saved, you never believed on him and you were never in Christ.

Kenny'sID said:

That's because you all refuse to answer my question when I go through the scriptures, or even acknowledge some. When that happens, it makes it clear you know we have proven it because you cannot refute it.

So, yes we have, several times.

Examples:

Tell me what abandon the faith means here?

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

And remember, "they never had it to begin with" doesn't work here because it clearly says they they had faith, it's the only way they could abandon it.. I'll await your reply.

Click to expand...

1 Timothy is a no brainer. IT TELLS YOU IN THE SENTENCE. Do I really need to explain that to you?

Because one abandons the faith doesn't mean salvation is lost..they can't be snatched by the deception that caused them to lose faith.

Kenny'sID said:

And God will always be our God whether he sends yus to hell or heaven, so what is your point?

And my question on your comment of being or not being unborn?

Click to expand...

God will not leave you nor forsake you..and His Spirit will remain in you.

-57 said:

1 Timothy is a no brainer. IT TELLS YOU IN THE SENTENCE. Do I really need to explain that to you?

Click to expand...

Amen that verse can also talk about during the time of tribulation after the rapture because it says last days which wouldn't apply to us.

ABCthings said:

If I deliberatly go on sining after being saved, will I still make heaven? I got a friend telling me this
Once saved forever saved. 1

Click to expand...

The formula we see in salvation:

Hear the word, receive the word, receive the Holy Spirit into your heart, repent and be cleansed by the blood of Jesus into the remission of sin, often followed up with a public declaration through water baptism, and continuing on to pursuing his will and righteousness, share the Good News.

They may have encountered Jesus, but they aren’t transformed from the inside out, Jesus says, you will now them by there fruit.

BNR32FAN said:

You do realize the New Testament was written in Greek correct? I simply provided the definition of the actual Greek word that was used. That’s not biblical gymnastics it’s called bible study. By studying the actual Greek words that were translated to English you can actually learn a lot about the message the authors were trying to convey. Many of the inaccurate English translations are the very reason why people don’t understand the scriptures. For example the words believe, believer, and faith; the Greek definitions of these words all imply obedience, loyalty, faithfulness, trustworthiness, and fidelity. The English words do not include these qualities in their definition.

Click to expand...

You twist the scriptures into a false gospel concerning OSAS. You guys always in a cult like fashion have to say...here's what the greek is really saying. All the translators have gotten it wrong.

Kenny'sID said:

And God will always be our God whether he sends yus to hell or heaven, so what is your point?

And my question on your comment of being or not being unborn?

Click to expand...

You can't become not born again.

GodsGrace101 said:

Does the following sound to you as if all we lose are benefits in this life?

Click to expand...

Stop praying. Stop going to church. Stop reading your bible. What do you think will happen