When does one lose salvation?

-57 said:

What do you do with the sins you haven't repented of?

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Stumbling in sin is not falling away. Peter denied Jesus 3 times even tho he never turned away from Jesus. His reaction is proof of this.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t know why I said irresistible grace, what I meant was do you believe in total depravity because in one answer you refer to everyone being under original sin yet in another you claim that God does not need to enable someone to believe. It seems your contradicting yourself in these two statements.

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Everyone is under original sin. A fall so far that on their own they cannot know Christ. John 6:65 informs us the Father has to grant one the ability to come to Christ. I hope that clears things up for you.

-57 said:

Those that don't remain demonstrate that they never had a saving relationship although they may have had been a visible member of the church.

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Again just like in John 15:2 you say they weren’t really believers when the scriptures say they are. Does God graft unbelievers into the olive tree?

“Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭11:20-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

GodsGrace101 said:

Amen.
How could anyone possibly know if "they were never saved to begin with".

Who are WE to decide who is saved and who isn't?

Those that can speak these words have a misconception about what Jesus taught.
Jesus said in Luke 8:13 that one can believe for A WHILE and then fall away when tribulation comes.

Jesus said in the parable of the Prodigal Son that the son became LOST but is FOUND AGAIN.
Luke 15:24

Jesus said the LAWLESS will not enter into heaven.
Mathew 7:23

Many verses have to be ignored or not understood to believe that one is saved forever.

Jesus is the life...
If we have Jesus we have the life.

If we abandon Jesus through our own will,
then we lose the life He gives to us.

§Blessings.

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All true, but good luck with using Gods word here, it doesn't seem to hold much water for some.

What I'm getting is we either get an easily refutable canned response, or they completely ignore what they were not able to come up with a canned response for. In the second case there, I have no idea what they tell themselves when they can't refute Gods word.

Here are some more:

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Both verses mean we CAN fall away. Anyone care to challenge my interpretation?

1 John 3:10-11 KJV Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Yes, we do have to do something more than say we have faith, in order to get to heaven. Anyone care to challenge that interpretation?

BNR32FAN said:

We’re talikng about John 3:18 here. God judges everyone according to whether or not they believe. Are you saying people can believe but not receive Jesus?

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Non-belief is sin.

BNR32FAN said:

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

By the way Romans 3:10 is a reference to Psalms 14:1-7 and Psalms 53:1-6. “Says the fool in his heart”.

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Romans 3:10 confirms Psalms.

-57 said:

Christians produce good works/fruits when they abide in Christ and bad works/fruits when they don't abide in Christ.
Christians hop back and forth all their life. The works/fruits of the Christian will be cast into the fire. 1Cor 3:10-14 describe the event. Yet they will be saved.

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Your way off with this one. In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Paul is talking about “builders” who are building on the foundation of Christ. John 15 is a completely different situation. John 15 is about believers who do not love others this is why they do not bear fruit. John 15 is about not bearing fruit. 1 Cor 3:11-15 is about people who are building on the foundation of Christ which means they are bearing fruit. You cannot build on the foundation of Christ without bearing fruit. In 1 Cor 3 it is the builder’s works that are tested by fire to see is they have any value. Whether his works have value or not he will still be saved. John 15:6 it is the branches themselves that are cast away to wither then cast into the fire and burned. The Greek word translated to “cast” in John 15:6 means to throw away or let go of a thing without care or regard often in an intense or violent manner. These are not the same message.

-57 said:

Those that don't remain demonstrate that they never had a saving relationship although they may have had been a visible member of the church.

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JUST STOP!! Stop pulling things out of your mind and let the scriptures do the teaching. There’s nothing in the entire chapter that even remotely refers to those who are grafted as being false professors. Do you really think that God will graft a false professor into the olive tree just because they claim they are a believer?!! Does He not know who believes and who doesn’t? Paul specifically says God cuts off the branches for their unbelief and He will graft them back in again ifbthey turn from their unbelief.

BNR32FAN said:

Again just like in John 15:2 you say they weren’t really believers when the scriptures say they are. Does God graft unbelievers into the olive tree?

“Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭11:20-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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As I said the verse is refering to pseudoChristians. They do not abide in Christ.

-57 said:

Your points are always one sided. I can fall away from my mother...but she will always be my mother. there is no way I can be unborn from her. During the time I am "fallen away from her" I miss out on her benefits.

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What do you mean by falling away from your mother when she is not responsible for your salvation? The subject was falling away from salvation.

And why in the world would you want to become unborn with your mother....that's just gross and i have no idea the point of the comment?

Kenny'sID said:

All true, but good luck with using Gods word here, it doesn't seem to hold much water for some.

What I'm getting is we either get an easily refutable canned response, or they completely ignore what they were not able to come up with a canned response for. In the second case there, I have no idea what they tell themselves when they can't refute Gods word.

Here are some more:

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Both verses mean we CAN fall away. Anyone care to challenge my interpretation?

1 John 3:10-11 KJV Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Yes, we do have to do something more than say we have faith, in order to get to heaven. Anyone care to challenge that interpretation?

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It's been challenged. You haven't shown where "fall away" means loss of salvation.

-57 said:

Everyone is under original sin. A fall so far that on their own they cannot know Christ. John 6:65 informs us the Father has to grant one the ability to come to Christ. I hope that clears things up for you.

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No not really because Jesus previously said in the very same discussion

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

All those The Father give Jesus will come to Him but only those who presently and continuously comes to Him He will not cast out. The Greek word used that is translated to comes or cometh is érchomai which is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense as shown below. So not everyone who The Father gives to Jesus will not be cast away, only those who presently and continuously come to Him will not be cast away.

cometh


G2064


Lemma:

ἔρχομαι


Transliteration:

érchomai


Pronounce:

el'-tho


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one


Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Now with that being said Jesus also said

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Kenny'sID said:

What do you mean by falling away from your mother when she is not responsible for your salvation? The subject was falling away from salvation.

And why in the world would you want to become unborn with your mother....that's just gross and i have no idea the point of the comment?

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The point is....your mother will ALWAYS be your mother. If you have a dispute and fall away from her she will remain your mother. Your relationship may not be like a mother /child relationship bu she will still be your mother.

if you are saved and fall away from the faith you will remain saved but not reap the christian benefits a christian receives during their life. Prayer works and God acts. But if you don't pray in your fallen away state God won't answer.

BNR32FAN said:

No not really because Jesus previously said in the very same discussion

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

All those The Father give Jesus will come to Him but only those who presently and continuously comes to Him He will not cast out. The Greek word used that is translated to comes or cometh is érchomai which is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense as shown below. So not everyone who The Father gives to Jesus will not be cast away, only those who presently and continuously come to Him will not be cast away.

‬‬

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Biblical gymnastics.

-57 said:

Non-belief is sin.



Romans 3:10 confirms Psalms.

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So no one is seeking God?

“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

No one is doing good?

“And those who repay evil for good, They oppose me, because I follow what is good.”
‭‭PSALMS‬ ‭38:20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:15-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭12:35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”
‭‭1 PETER‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.”
‭‭3 JOHN‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.”
‭‭2 THESSALONIANS‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I can come up with at least a dozen more examples. Both of the psalms begin with saying “the fool says in his heart”.

-57 said:

It's been challenged. You haven't shown where "fall away" means loss of salvation.

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That's because you all refuse to answer my question when I go through the scriptures, or even acknowledge some. When that happens, it makes it clear you know we have proven it because you cannot refute it.

So, yes we have, several times.

Examples:

Tell me what abandon the faith means here?

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

And remember, "they never had it to begin with" doesn't work here because it clearly says they they had faith, it's the only way they could abandon it.. I'll await your reply.

ABCthings said:

If I deliberatly go on sining after being saved, will I still make heaven? I got a friend telling me this
Once saved forever saved. 1

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True, once saved always saved but, the ones that just continue in sin and say that they good to go because, they are covered by the blood are probably only fooling themselves, for a saved person is grieved when they sin and will repent.
M-Bob

-57 said:

The point is....your mother will ALWAYS be your mother. If you have a dispute and fall away from her she will remain your mother. Your relationship may not be like a mother /child relationship bu she will still be your mother.

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And God will always be our God whether he sends yus to hell or heaven, so what is your point?

And my question on your comment of being or not being unborn?

The verse in Hebrews actually confirms Once Saved Always Saved. It says it's impossible to renew someone to repentance again, meaning it's impossible for someone to get saved again after falling away because Jesus' sacrifice was for all sins... They can't gain their salvation again and repent (change their mind) again, because they are already saved by the final sacrifice of Jesus and trusting in him. I can't believe people don't see that. They think it's a scary verse.

People just don't understand they have no say in their salvation, that salvation is not of themselves, but a gift of God. They are trying to play God essentially.

Kenny'sID said:

All true, but good luck with using Gods word here, it doesn't seem to hold much water for some.

What I'm getting is we either get an easily refutable canned response, or they completely ignore what they were not able to come up with a canned response for. In the second case there, I have no idea what they tell themselves when they can't refute Gods word.

Here are some more:

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Both verses mean we CAN fall away. Anyone care to challenge my interpretation?

1 John 3:10-11 KJV Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Yes, we do have to do something more than say we have faith, in order to get to heaven. Anyone care to challenge that interpretation?

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Right.
The verses are many.
2 Timothy 2:12 IF we DENY HIM, He will also deny us. Ah...but then 2:13 says God will remain faithful. Faithful to what/who? verse 12 just stated that God will deny us? Can scripture oppose itself? No! God is faithful to HIS word...WE must be faithful to OUR FAITH.

We could go on and on....
But I don't want to preach to the choir!
Onward Christian soldier.

-57 said:

Biblical gymnastics.

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You do realize the New Testament was written in Greek correct? I simply provided the definition of the actual Greek word that was used. That’s not biblical gymnastics it’s called bible study. By studying the actual Greek words that were translated to English you can actually learn a lot about the message the authors were trying to convey. Many of the inaccurate English translations are the very reason why people don’t understand the scriptures. For example the words believe, believer, and faith; the Greek definitions of these words all imply obedience, loyalty, faithfulness, trustworthiness, and fidelity. The English words do not include these qualities in their definition.