Christianity and blood sacrifice

"You say: “Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT”, so it was a knee jerk reaction for Christ & not something He thought about & decided to do? So, Christ did not of His own free will decide to go to the cross? “Without it”, yes we are bad off, but do we deserve better & did Christ have a gun to His head?

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It is evident to all reading our posts that you either ignore what I write in context or are not even reading it except to pull isolated quotes apart from my context & reason why it's there.

Of course Christ decided this--even before creation. I do not like to have to repeat myself; it is a waste of my time. This will be my last post concerning your convoluted & eisogetical meanderings.

I gave many reasons why He did have to go through it. You ignored them & then set up strawman arguments about some knee jerk reaction or a gun to someone's head. I have heard these repeated by UNBELIEVERS. It is amazing you use them.

"Did Christ owe us something, so He had to pay?"

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I have explained in various posts in this thread & others, God's justice had to be satisfied (propitiated), His righteous demands had to be met under His Law. Man is spiritually dead in His trespasses that separate him from God. He cannot have a relationship with God in His fallen state--fallen SHORT. He is forever unrighteous & will be justly judged--UNLESS--Someone provides a righteous ransom.

To Whom Did Jesus Pay Our Ransom?
How and to whom did Jesus pay our ransom?
Christ Pays the Ransom, But To Whom?

Mankind cannot atone for himself or others or pay for His sins or propitiate them, let alone be righteous. He is forever separated from God--UNLESS-- Someone meets those righteous requirements, satisfying God's justice; Someone who can fulfill hundreds of prophecies, predicted prior to the incarnation. That Someone was the Lord Jesus Christ.

"First off: you might next time quote me, so it shows up as an alert to me."

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HAD you actually read my post on page 4 of the thread, you would see that I DID quote you before saying not once, not twice but 3 times: Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH WITH IT, explaining the reasons why. Here is your quote once again & my brief quotes.

"You said: Christ DID NOT HAVE TO nor did He really want to go through the torture humiliation & murder, but out of Love for us did it."

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"Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT! Without it there is no salvation, there is no redemption, there is no reconciliation between God & mankind..."

"Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT because the whole of the OT prophesied He would & Christ must fulfill ALL of them." (>300 in both 1st & 2nd comings; God doesn't lie--Lk 24)

"Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT (3rd time) to demonstrate that He is the only One who was perfect, who never sinned while being human on this earth, the Lamb of God without blemish or defect, holy & perfect in all His ways."

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"Christ would have been “perfect” even if He had not gone to the cross???"

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Christ, as God, is of course perfect. The point is: Christ had to be the perfect Lamb of God--AS A MAN--being our substitution as the LAST ADAM, THE LAMB OF GOD. He had to live like any human being, yet perfect on this earth to qualify for being the unblemished sacrifice-holy & innocent, which the 1st Adam failed.

I Pet 3:18 Christ died once for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, 2 bring us 2 God...
Psalm 69:9 ...The reproaches of those who reproach You HAVE FALLEN ON ME.
John 11:50 ...It is expedient for you that one man die FOR THE PEOPLE...

Gen 22:2,13,15,18 God said, 'Take your ONLY SON ISAAC...& offer him as a burnt offering. {He had more than one son!} On the 3RD DAY Abraham looked up & saw the place in the distance...Abraham told his servants. “...WE will return to you.” "Where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham answered, “GOD HIMSELF WILL PROVIDE THE LAMB...”

Lev 1:4 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, SO THAT IT MAY BE ACCEPTED--for him--TO MAKE ATONEMENT ON HIS BEHALF.

Isa 53:4 Our infirmities HE HIMSELF BORE & our sorrows He carried (Matt 8:17)...He was wounded FOR our transgression, bruised FOR our iniquities; the punishment that brought our peace was ON HIM...YHWH laid ON HIM the iniquity of us all...4 My people's transgression HE WAS STRICKEN...You will make His soul an offering FOR SIN...He will bear THEIR iniquities...

I Pet 2:24 HE HIMSELF bore our sins IN HIS BODY ON THE TREE, so that we might die to sin & live to righteousness. “BY HIS STRIPES you are healed.”

2 Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we are certain that if One died FOR EVERYONE ELSE, then ALL OF US HAVE DIED. And He died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him who for their sake died & was raised.

I can go on & on on the multitude of verses on the subsitutionary life of animal sacrifices in mankind's place & the one sacrifice of Christ for us.

No one else could meet this legal & righteous requirement AS A MAN in order to ransom mankind & the whole universe, both corrupted. This is the FALL of Adam. It effected the whole universe! This is also the triumph of Christ, the Last Adam, as the Son of Man.

As I showed, this need to be incarnated & reconcile the whole universe by Christ was ALREADY pre-determined before the universe was even created & DECIDED by the Triune God! Isaiah 48 is just one of many passages talking about this.

Isaiah 48:3-5,12,13,16-18 “The former things I declared of old; they went out from My mouth & I announced them; then suddenly I did them & they came to pass. Because I know that you are obstinate...I declared them to you from of old, BEFORE they came to pass I announced them to you...

I am He; I am the first & I am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth & My right hand spread out the heavens...I, even I, have spoken & called HIM; I have brought HIM & HE will prosper in HIS way.

Draw near to me, hear this: SINCE the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it TOOK PLACE, I have been there. And now the Lord God HAS SENT ME & HIS SPIRIT. (The Father & Christ speaking here 700 years before the incarnation)

Heb 10:7 Then I said, 'Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll of the Book: I have come to do Your will, O God.' (Christ predicting this 1000 years BEFORE His incarnation)

Col 1:18-22 And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell & THROUGH HIM TO RECONCILE TO HIMSELF ALL THINGS WHETHER ON EARTH OR IN HEAVEN, MAKING PEACE BY THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. (Eph 1:10)

21And U, who once were ALIENATED & HOSTILE IN MIND, DOING EVIL DEEDS, He has now reconciled IN HIS BODY OF FLESH BY HIS DEATH, in order to present U holy & blameless & above reproach before Him...

Eph 2:13,14-16 But now in Christ Jesus U who once were far away have been brought near THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one...thus making peace & RECONCILING them both TO GOD IN 1 BODY THROUGH THE CROSS...

I can go on & on--on verses showing the essential & vital necessity of the blood of Christ to reconcile, to justify, to ransom, to propitiate, to sanctify, to save, to make peace, removing the enmity between God & man, to unite Jew & Gentile into one body, etc. No blood of Christ, no new covenant.

I will address just one more because it is so important to correct your eisogetical teaching.

"Ro. 5: 12 … and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. It did not say: “because Adam sinned”, but “because all sinned.”

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Quoting only part of a verse & leaving the rest out, as well as the rest of the context of Romans 5, teaches something CONTRARY to what Paul is saying there. It needs to be addressed!

Rom 4:23-25 Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, but also for us, to whom righteousness will be CREDITED—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered OVER TO DEATH FOR OUR TRESPASSES & was RAISED TO LIFE FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION.

This is the prior context to Romans 5 but necessary to understand why I said Christ's atoning sacrifice & its effects continued past the cross. Yes, I already said at various times this happened only once, for all time CHRONOLOGICALLY.

But the one, same, gospel message not only includes the suffering, death, burial but also going to hell for us & His resurrection. Christ's atoning blood was shed once on the cross but continues to keep cleansing us when we confess our sins in our daily walk. It continues to give us victory over the devil when he accuses us before God (Rev 12:11)

At the end of Rom 4 it shows both the death atoning for our trespasses as well as our being JUSTIFIED because of His resurrection. If it stopped at the cross, then there is is humanity stuck in Hades & there is no justification before God for mankind. His rising from the dead accomplished our 'being declared right before God in His eyes' by faith in Christ's death AND resurrection. That is what Christians confess each Sunday around the world when they say the Apostles' Creed. Paul made the same argument in I Cor 15:13-21:

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless & so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are STILL in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead...

It didn't stop when Christ as a man, physically died on the cross. His body was laid in a grave but His spirit as a man was committed to the Father (Luke 23:46; Eccl 12:7; Acts 7:56-60) & His soul, as a man, went to hell, like every other man before Him. He had to experience all that we, as human beings experienced & then conquer death by the resurrection.

(Hell is Sheol in the OT, Hades in the NT & Jesus went to the area there He called Paradise & Abraham's bosom & the Jews called Gan Eden like the prophets Ezekiel & Jeremiah mention. It was the place or abode of the dead in the spiritual or invisible realm, where souls go when they depart from the mortal body at physical death.)

Therefore, since we are justified by His resurrection (4:25), justified by our faith in Christ (5:1) & justified by His blood (5:9), we THEN have peace with God through Christ (5:1), we have access to God's grace in which we stand even today (5:2), we exult in the hope of the glory of God (5:2), we are saved from the wrath of God through Him (5:9), we were reconciled to God through Christ's death, we will be saved through His life. Wow. PTL!

Now we get to Rom 5:12 & following. Here is the complete verse, showing just the opposite of what you said: "Therefore, just as SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ONE MAN & death through sin, so also death was PASSED ON--to all men BECAUSE--all sinned

You said: '...and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. It did not say: “because Adam sinned”, but “because all sinned.”

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However you DELIBERATELY left out the first part: sin entered the world THRU ONE MAN & death entered through the sin of this one man. Then you left out another key part of the verse: so also death WAS PASSED ON (from this one man's sin) to all men BECAUSE all sinned.

But this all occurred because of one man's sin & passing this on to all mankind, since all living came from Adam as their earthly father & Eve was the mother of all living humans. (Gen 3:20) Paul says the same thing in Acts 17:26: 'From 1 man He made every nation of men.'

The prophet Malachi does also in 2:10 JPS Tanakh 1917 'Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us?

Then the repeated verses showing that indeed this all came to all mankind through the First Adam & all in Christ were to be made righteous through the Last Adam. This is shown in vs 14, where the First Adam is called the {Gk 'tupo', 17X in NT} 'model/figure/pattern/type' prefiguring the One to come after him.

vs 15 starts the contrast given between THE GIFT & THE TRESPASS. The gift of salvation, eternal life, comes by the grace of the 1 man, Jesus Christ. The trespass comes through 1 man, Adam. It repeats vs 12: 'For if the many died by the trespass of 1 MAN--much more did the grace of God & the gift by the grace of the 1 MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

vs 16 The result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that 1 MAN'S SIN. For the JUDGMENT (Gk 'krima'--we get crime from it) FOLLOWING 1 TRESPASS BROUGHT CONDEMNATION, but the free gift following many trespasses BROUGHT JUSTIFICATION.

vs 17 For if, BY THE TRESPASS OF 1 MAN, DEATH REIGNED THROUGH THAT 1 MAN--how much MORE will those who RECEIVE AN ABUNDANCE OF GRACE & THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS--REIGN IN LIFE THROUGH THE 1 MAN, Jesus Christ!

vs 18 Consequently, just as 1 TRESPASS resulted in CONDEMNATION FOR ALL PEOPLE, so also 1 RIGHTEOUS ACT resulted in JUSTIFICATION & LIFE FOR ALL PEOPLE.

vs 19 Just as thru THE DISOBEDIENCE OF THE 1 MAN the many were made SINNERS, so also thru THE OBEDIENCE OF THE 1 MAN the many will be made RIGHTEOUS.

Paul repeats this teaching in I Cor 15 as well!

I Cor 15:21,22 For since death CAME THROUGH A MAN, the resurrection of the dead COMES ALSO THROUGH A MAN. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, so IN CHRIST ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE.

I Cor 15:45-49 So it is written: 'The 1st man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit.' The 1st man was of the dust of the earth, the 2nd man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth & as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

1213 said:

I think that is good question. I think person remains in his words, when he doesn’t change them and remains in truth.


If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48



Before I can continue with this, please show the scripture that says so?



Interesting thing is that Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death. So, obviously death was not necessary for the forgiveness.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

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Very good and my posts on this thread might go further for you.

CelticRebel said:

Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

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The location of the invisible kingdom and temple not made with hands Luke 17:21, 1 Corinthians 3:16, foreshadowed in the symbolism of the visible ones made with hands being historical is the problem with the westernized version, the figurative symbolism of the east wrote in allegories, figurative, shadows, typology, etc...poetic portrayals of the inward conscience states of mans mind is veiled by traditional literalism, Galatians 4:20-30, brings the scattered historical narrative into it's proper context as timeless allegory concerning the conscience journey of earthly man transcending to the heavenly man, the two siblings representing flesh and spirit throughout the OT allegories.

Psalms 40:6, agrees with you that literal sacrifices human or animal isn't required, the behavioral typologies in the characterization of the animals being offered was the point.

Berl said:

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<Be>The location of the invisible kingdom and temple not made with hands Luke 17:21, 1 Corinthians 3:16, foreshadowed in the symbolism of the visible ones made with hands being historical is the problem with the westernized version, the figurative symbolism of the east wrote in allegories, figurative, shadows, typology, etc...poetic portrayals of the inward conscience states of mans mind is veiled by traditional literalism, Galatians 4:20-30, brings the scattered historical narrative into it's proper context as timeless allegory concerning the conscience journey of earthly man transcending to the heavenly man, the two siblings representing flesh and spirit throughout the OT allegories.
Psalms 40:6, agrees with you that literal sacrifices human or animal isn't required, the behavioral typologies in the characterization of the animals being offered was the point.<Be>

end

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This is how some folks today understand this, after they have had umpteen years indoctrination in whichever denomination. Since it is not clearly spelled out anywhere in scripture how did the early Christians in e.g. Rome, Corinthians, Galatia, Ephesus, Colossae, Thessalonika etc. mentioned in the NT understand all this figurative language?
.....Did the formerly pagan new Christians in Ephesus in Asia, modern Turkey, understand the Jewish "allegories, figurative, shadows, typology, etc...poetic portrayals of the inward conscience states of mans mind" etc? Unlike us they did not have multiple Bible versions on their tablets where they could instantly call up all the pertinent verses and come up with the conclusions you did.
.....Copies of scripture were hand written thus very expensive. Very few people were wealthy enough to have copies of some of the books. Most were lucky in their church had copies of a few epistles.
.....Did God let 100s of years of Christians stumble along in darkness until us modern folks could get all these scriptures together and figure this all out?

Der Alter said:

<Be>The location of the invisible kingdom and temple not made with hands Luke 17:21, 1 Corinthians 3:16, foreshadowed in the symbolism of the visible ones made with hands being historical is the problem with the westernized version, the figurative symbolism of the east wrote in allegories, figurative, shadows, typology, etc...poetic portrayals of the inward conscience states of mans mind is veiled by traditional literalism, Galatians 4:20-30, brings the scattered historical narrative into it's proper context as timeless allegory concerning the conscience journey of earthly man transcending to the heavenly man, the two siblings representing flesh and spirit throughout the OT allegories.
Psalms 40:6, agrees with you that literal sacrifices human or animal isn't required, the behavioral typologies in the characterization of the animals being offered was the point.<Be>
This is how some folks today understand this, after they have had umpteen years indoctrination in whichever denomination. Since it is not clearly spelled out anywhere in scripture how did the early Christians in e.g. Rome, Corinthians, Galatia, Ephesus, Colossae, Thessalonika etc. mentioned in the NT understand all this figurative language?
.....Did the formerly pagan new Christians in Ephesus in Asia, modern Turkey, understand the Jewish "allegories, figurative, shadows, typology, etc...poetic portrayals of the inward conscience states of mans mind" etc? Unlike us they did not have multiple Bible versions on their tablets where they could instantly call up all the pertinent verses and come up with the conclusions you did.
.....Copies of scripture were hand written thus very expensive. Very few people were wealthy enough to have copies of some of the books. Most were lucky in their church had copies of a few epistles.
.....Did God let 100s of years of Christians stumble along in darkness until us modern folks could get all these scriptures together and figure this all out?

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The progression of awakening is diverse in everyone, the years I spent solidified in the traditional elements where beneficial in that it revealed the dependency traditional programming has on the mind to stay in servitude to it.

The truth is supposed to set one free from the mind in bondage to the flesh, the literal is for base introduction to spiritual concepts portrayed as individualized personas not historical characters to be idolized.

Christ in you, and you in Christ surpasses the intellectual minds ability to discern the implications of that truth, hidden in the otherwise dead letter.

Every possible personality is portrayed in scripture to show none have an advantage in spiritual revelation, study and pedigree failed to reveal the riddles of the OT algorithms to the earthly mind of Paul, it took a breech in his religious ethnic programming to encounter Christ within him, Galatians 1:12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Then he could say there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female in Christ in you, we progress from faith to faith leaving behind the old for the new, historic or modern has no relevance on spiritual discernment not of this world, Galatians 4:1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Christ Awakening is the figurative key from within mans own conscience that reconciles the world unconditionally regardless of his own sensory witnessing telling him/her otherwise, 2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?,.

Flesh and blood mentality has no inheritance in the kingdom of God who is Spirit and causation of everything in effect, sacrificing an effect won't deal with the cause, Hebrews 9:9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; the time reference is a state of the ethnic, gender, status, religious minded still present to this day, Just like Galatians revelation concerning OT symbolism being about conscience bondage to freedom in one conscience being not two flesh and blood siblings mistaken for history, which is spiritual nursery school served to adults, Matt 11:11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Galatians 4:22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Etc......................................
Ephesians 4:13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. (John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. )

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Don't make the outward mistake of the religious rulers Matt 23:13-13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

CelticRebel said:

Good post.

And thanks for also referencing Psalms 40:6. Isn't it ironic how some people interpret scripture literally and insist that everyone else does in every case -- until the literal interpretation says something that they don't agree with. Then they begin semantics games and such in which they try to justify in their minds and to others why the literal reading doesn't actually mean what it says. That's what's been going on in this thread.

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Yea were all progressing faith to faith or becoming stagnant in our traditions. Everyone in due time will awaken to who is looking out of those two witnesses at his world.

Berl said:

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<Be>The progression of awakening is diverse in everyone, the years I spent solidified in the traditional elements where beneficial in that it revealed the dependency traditional programming has on the mind to stay in servitude to it.
The truth is supposed to set one free from the mind in bondage to the flesh, the literal is for base introduction to spiritual concepts portrayed as individualized personas not historical characters to be idolized.
Christ in you, and you in Christ surpasses the intellectual minds ability to discern the implications of that truth, hidden in the otherwise dead letter.
Every possible personality is portrayed in scripture to show none have an advantage in spiritual revelation, study and pedigree failed to reveal the riddles of the OT algorithms to the earthly mind of Paul, it took a breech in his religious ethnic programming to encounter Christ within him, Galatians 1:12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Then he could say there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female in Christ in you, we progress from faith to faith leaving behind the old for the new, historic or modern has no relevance on spiritual discernment not of this world, Galatians 4:1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Christ Awakening is the figurative key from within mans own conscience that reconciles the world unconditionally regardless of his own sensory witnessing telling him/her otherwise, 2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?,.
Flesh and blood mentality has no inheritance in the kingdom of God who is Spirit and causation of everything in effect, sacrificing an effect won't deal with the cause, Hebrews 9:9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; the time reference is a state of the ethnic, gender, status, religious minded still present to this day, Just like Galatians revelation concerning OT symbolism being about conscience bondage to freedom in one conscience being not two flesh and blood siblings mistaken for history, which is spiritual nursery school served to adults, Matt 11:11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Galatians 4:22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Etc......................................
Ephesians 4:13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. (John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. )
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Don't make the outward mistake of the religious rulers Matt 23:13-13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.<Be>

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Doesn't really address my post in any way. Just implied boasting of your superior knowledge and understanding.

Looks like someone was offended, so I will leave you be don't want anyone having emotional stress over my controversial truth you need to silence, so much for this section that needs to be renamed because it doesn't match with criteria for being controversial.

Sorry to see you go, Berl. Your comments are controversial to ancient passed down Christian teaching. That is why others & myself seek to refute some of the things you assert, based on a biblical perspective. It is an enjoyable task for me personally. And that is the name of the game in a controversial section.

"Looks like someone was offended, so I will leave you be don't want anyone having emotional stress over my controversial truth you need to silence, so much for this section that needs to be renamed because it doesn't match with criteria for being controversial."

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I didn't see anyone offended nor having emotional stress over your controversial truth. The supposed quote was this:

"Doesn't really address my post in any way. Just implied boasting of your superior knowledge & understanding."

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Nor is anyone 'silencing' you for what you wrote. If that were true, an administrator would have completely removed all your comments, which not even one of them have been removed.

In just my opinion, it appears you are the one offended & having emotional stress, based on your comment. I have prayed for you concerning this.

Also, if you have a problem with this section & feel it needs to be renamed, you can write to an administrator & share your concerns.

CelticRebel said:

Returning to this thread, is there any denomination besides the Eastern Orthodox Church which holds Ransom/Christus Victor as its view of atonement?

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Some emergent movement groups are into Christus Victor, but the mentality is post denominational.

CelticRebel said:

Returning to this thread, is there any denomination besides the Eastern Orthodox Church which holds Ransom/Christus Victor as its view of atonement?

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I believe all of the creedal Christian confessions holds to Ransom/Christus Victor. It is that they don't limit their theology to just that and see no conflict in holding them all. It is when someone says "it's either or" problems come up. The self imposed dichotomy or trichotomy that does not exist.

CelticRebel said:

Returning to this thread, is there any denomination besides the Eastern Orthodox Church which holds Ransom/Christus Victor as its view of atonement?

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Anabaptists?

CelticRebel said:

Returning to this thread, is there any denomination besides the Eastern Orthodox Church which holds Ransom/Christus Victor as its view of atonement?

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I just learned of another view of atonement the other day - maybe you can send emails to Presbyterian and Methodist and Episcopal churches in your area - asking pastors/rectors what their particular views are (because it may not be held across widespread denominations - it may be more personal). I learned this from a Franciscan priest: