Invocation Of The Saints

Beloved2018

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I grew up Confessional Lutheran. They believe in the intercession of saints, just that we shouldn't invoke them. Why? Because, there is no example given in Scripture.
They appear to be right.
I have scoured Catholic sources in an attempt to find one instant in Scripture of a person here on earth invoking/beseeching someone in heaven.
All I come up with are 1) Verses that demonstrate that intercession is true ( that those in heaven pray for us), which Lutherans believe and which is not the same as invocation. 2) Logical inferences ( if intercession is true then invocation is true), which are not helpful and are questionable. 3) Criticizing 'Sola Scriptura', which is also not helpful.
So I turn to you, can you help me?
Are there any examples in the thousands of years of history that Scripture covers of a person invoking/beseeching/asking someone unseen in heaven, to pray for them, like we Catholics do?
Thank you.
 

Beloved2018

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The rich man and Abraham were in the 'afterlife'. I'm looking for verses where a person on earth invokes a person in heaven.
The closest I have come across are:
'....Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?' Job 5:1
'...He is calling Elijah' Matthew 27:47
Both of these are too obscure on their own though to be of any help.
Luke 16:19-31
 
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If one adheres to sola Scriptura as a concept for the faith then there's no reason to invoke saints at all.
Lutherans typically won't go beyond scripture, but we do.
We dont need it to be explicitly mentioned in scripture to believe it though :) tradition supports it :)
 
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Beloved2018

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This really doesn't have anything to do with Sola Scriptura.
Scripture covers thousands of years of theological history and a wide variety of genres including liturgical. Surely, in all that space, a few examples can be found?

If one adheres to sola Scriptura as a concept for the faith then there's no reason to invoke saints at all.
Lutherans typically won't go beyond scripture, but we do.
We dont need it to be explicitly mentioned in scripture to believe it though :) tradition supports it :)
 
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Davidnic

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I think you also need to take it in steps.

Can we pray for each other or ask others to pray for us? Of Course.
Are those dead, alive in Christ? Yes.
So what is the difference? None.

But: The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

From the artice:

Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”


But the critical factor here is...death is conquered, the Saints are alive in Christ, so the point is not why would they pray for us, but why would they not? And not should we approach them as we do each other on earth...but why wouldn't we?

The view that it is necromancy does not hold up, even though it is a common charge and stated reason not to do it. Necromancy is seeking answers of the future, power over things and the dead, ect.

This is the acknowledgment of Christ's power over death and the fact that the All of us cannot be separated from Christ. You would not find much Old Testament support for seeking intercession from the dead, deaths power was not yet broken. The idea of the Messiah was unclear to them. His purpose not fully understood, except to the wisest.

So we have to look at how we pray for each other and now in Christ why would that change.
 
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thecolorsblend

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This really doesn't have anything to do with Sola Scriptura.
Scripture covers thousands of years of theological history and a wide variety of genres including liturgical. Surely, in all that space, a few examples can be found?
Sacred Scripture calls on the faithful to pray for one another.

It seems kind of arbitrary to believe that mortality is a barrier to that when Our Lord said that God is the God of the living and not the dead.
 
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Beloved2018

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This is one of those logical inference arguments ;). I'm looking for Scripture.
Sacred Scripture calls on the faithful to pray for one another.

It seems kind of arbitrary to believe that mortality is a barrier to that when Our Lord said that God is the God of the living and not the dead.
 
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Beloved2018

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I think you also need to take it in steps.

Can we pray for each other or ask others to pray for us? Of Course.
Are those dead, alive in Christ? Yes.
So what is the difference? None.

But: The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

From the artice:

Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

This just says that he has the prayers of the Saints, not that the saints invoked him directly. The prayers could all be addressed to God.

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
Same here.
But the critical factor here is...death is conquered, the Saints are alive in Christ, so the point is not why would they pray for us, but why would they not?
Lutherans would say they pray for us generally.
And not should we approach them as we do each other on earth...but why wouldn't we?
This is the logic inference I spoke of in my OP.
The view that it is necromancy does not hold up, even though it is a common charge and stated reason not to do it. Necromancy is seeking answers of the future, power over things and the dead, ect.
Lutherans believe we pray with those in heaven. In their liturgy, they say, ' With angels and archangels and and the whole company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious Name, evermore praising You...'

This is the acknowledgment of Christ's power over death and the fact that the All of us cannot be separated from Christ. You would not find much Old Testament support for seeking intercession from the dead, deaths power was not yet broken. The idea of the Messiah was unclear to them. His purpose not fully understood, except to the wisest. So we have to look at how we pray for each other and now in Christ why would that change.
I've thought about this. That maybe the reason we don't see an example in Scripture ( at least in the Old Testament) is that the OT is prior to Christ's harrowing of sheol. But that doesn't work for a couple of reasons. 1) The OT is full of examples of people in sheol who are aware of what has happened or is happening. 2) Christ's
ministry and thus, His statement, 'God is the God of the living...', the transfiguration and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is pre-descent into sheol.
 
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Beloved2018

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I'm placing this verse here so I don't forget about it.
Are angels aware of our particulars?
I tell you, in the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance --Luke 15:7
It isn't an example of someone invoking an angel or saint in heaven (I'm still look for that) but it does address I think, the issue of whether or not the saints/ angels are aware of our particulars (something a lot of Lutherans question).
 
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Beloved2018

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A Lutheran would say ( at least the ones I'm hoping to reach out to), that the saints in heaven are alive and that we are as one body with them ( John 11/17 and that they do pray for us James 5:16), but it doesn't follow from that, that we are to ask for their assistance or invoke their aid.
Lutherans need an actual verse to make that leap. Something like:
'And Caleb fell prostrate on the ground and cried aloud, 'Oh holy Patriarchs...' Or, 'David looked up toward heaven and said, ' Gabriel, lend me your aid...'
Speaking of David, often times when I discuss this topic, I'm reminded of the eulogy he gave for his friend Jonathan:
' I am full of grief for you, my brother Jonathan: very dear have you been to me: your love for me was a wonder, greater than the love of women.' 2 Samuel 1: 26
In other places David 'commands' the angels to praise the Lord, but I don't know if this would count in Lutheran eyes, since he also 'commands' stars ect to do the same.

Sure.

John 11:25-26

John 17:20-23

James 5:16
 
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anna ~ grace

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A Lutheran would say ( at least the ones I'm hoping to reach out to), that the saints in heaven are alive and that we are as one body with them ( John 11/17 and that they do pray for us James 5:16), but it doesn't follow from that, that we are to ask for their assistance or invoke their aid.
Lutherans need an actual verse to make that leap. Something like:
'And Caleb fell prostrate on the ground and cried aloud, 'Oh holy Patriarchs...' Or, 'David looked up toward heaven and said, ' Gabriel, lend me your aid...'
Speaking of David, often times when I discuss this topic, I'm reminded of the eulogy he gave for his friend Jonathan:
' I am full of grief for you, my brother Jonathan: very dear have you been to me: your love for me was a wonder, greater than the love of women.' 2 Samuel 1: 26
In other places David 'commands' the angels to praise the Lord, but I don't know if this would count in Lutheran eyes, since he also 'commands' stars ect to do the same.
Well, remember, Luther didn't base much of his theology on the past 1,500 years of Christian thought and practice, which includes but is not limited to what is contained / clearly spelled out in Scripture. He based his theology on some of Apostolic tradition, and basically on what he thought Scripture said, meant, and excluded.
 
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Beloved2018

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But it's not like Scripture was written over the course of a few years by one guy and just contains a bit of history. It spans the time of Creation to the second coming of Christ and includes a wide variety of genres, including prayers. If an example of invocation cannot be found, then the question arises, "Why?" We as Catholics need to account for that I think. Criticizing Sola Scriptura misses the point.

Well, remember, Luther didn't base much of his theology on the past 1,500 years of Christian thought and practice, which includes but is not limited to what is contained / clearly spelled out in Scripture. He based his theology on some of Apostolic tradition, and basically on what he thought Scripture said, meant, and excluded.
 
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Beloved2018

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Here's a possible one:
Then he blessed Joseph and said,
May the God before whom my fathers
Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully,
the God who has been my shepherd
all my life to this day,
the Angel who has delivered me from all harm
---may he bless these boys ( Ephraim and Manasseh). Gen 48: 15-16
 
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anna ~ grace

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But it's not like Scripture was written over the course of a few years by one guy and just contains a bit of history. It spans the time of Creation to the second coming of Christ and includes a wide variety of genres, including prayers. If an example of invocation cannot be found, then the question arises, "Why?" We as Catholics need to account for that I think. Criticizing Sola Scriptura misses the point.
We only need to account for that if we're projecting a Protestant critique of the Catholic faith onto our own theology.

Protestants frequently assert "show me where in the Bible...", and then stand back triumphantly when a Catholic Christian acknowledges that such and such a thing is revealed by and through the Church, but not explicitly spelled out in Holy Scripture.

Many, many things we have learned as the Holy Spirit has guided the Church through Her Saints, who are the Body of Christ. You see, it doesn't begin and end with Scripture. It begins and ends with the Holy Spirit guiding, enlightening, speaking through, and declaring what is right to us via the Church. Via individual Saints, via councils, etc.

Even God being Triune in nature isn't exactly, clearly, super obviously spelled out in Scripture. But God has revealed that He is Three in One via the Saints, over time. And confirmed this over and over, too.

An example of this;

Heaven’s Icon: Sister Lucy’s Vision at Tuy, Spain

The moment has come

286b00aa0af604e721a6df91956badbd.jpg
 
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anna ~ grace

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Something that also occurs to me *in general*.

While I love Protestant Christians as fellow Christians, admire many of them, appreciate their insights and sincerity, prayerfulness, and wisdom, I have also been slowly realizing something.

That for many if not most Protestant Christians, the Bible, actually 90% of what Scripture is meant to be, has taken the place of both the Church, and the Eucharist, both of which are known to us as the Body of Christ.

So instead of 2,000 years of the Church's Spirit-lead guidance, declarations, truths, and wisdom, these Christians have the Bible, which they uphold very devotedly as the Word of God. Their defense of Scripture as God's words to us is awesome. And they do a better job at this than many within the Church.

But they miss out of the Word of God who is Christ via the Church, His Mystical Body, and via His Real Presence in the Eucharist. So a balanced view of all of this would include the Church, the Eucharist, and also Scripture as something God has given to us through the Church. But not Scripture as a starting point. Rather, Scripture as a very true and God-given revelation of who God is, but not all that God has given to us.
 
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