Doing good

Hammster said:

I gave the passage. You made a claim that it doesn’t mean what I think it means. So the onus is on you.

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I suppose what you offer will be as good as the standard interpretations on any reformed site. I read through a few and didn't find them very compelling, and had weaknesses that could be easily questioned.

I expected you to post a view which proved that the person responsible for making Abraham righteous is God, not Abraham himself simply because for anything to change/happen, work must be done and since Abraham did no work (there was no possibility of him boasting), he did not make himself change. In fact the text said he only believed, had faith, and faith is the opposite of work. A child can't cross a stream so he waits for an adult to carry him across. His waiting is belief in the adult to do what he can't do.

So this passage is used to prove that effort cannot change from a person from unrighteous to righteous.

However the problem that the Paul is trying to correct is the view that the Jewish members had in believing that the Gentile members were unrighteousness, and therefore inferior because they did not have law, which could make righteous, specifically circumcision. They needed to be kept in a new outer court.

He must make them realize

1. Abraham was made righteous without the law.
2. The law only raised awareness of inadequacy.

Ergon Nomou, the term “works of the law” has puzzled scholars for a long time and Wright claims it means those cultic ordinances which define who a Jew is. Every Rabbi had a different list, halakah.

However there is another solution. Ergon also means force or effect. The Jews believed that the law had influence, could perform effectively towards entry into the family of God's people.

Try this experiment. Use influence or force or effect or performance wherever you see the word “works”, even in the case of the Gentiles who attempted to boast.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by performance, so that no one can boast.

Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by performance, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to understand the concept in all it's dimensions, think of salvation as a bus. The only difference is that this is not a normal bus. The door is a portcullis ! When the Jew tries to enter through circumcision, it isn't enough work/performance. It needs compliance to ALL of the law, not just halakah. Ironically what was supposed to give life brought death, stopped him in his tracks. What allowed any of those under Law, like for example, Elizabeth and Zachariah, who were reckoned righteous, to enter was faith, being loyal to God, like Abraham, valuing good works like He valued good works, being obedient when prompted by the Holy Spirit. Zachariah believed the angel, like wise Elizabeth. They were familiar with heavenly communications, again like Abraham.

So when God sees Abraham's belief, He lifts the portcullis. I used this example to demonstrate the difficulty of entering the bus through performance.

The bus is a useful example because justification isn't salvation but empowerment to becoming a blessing to the world, a hope that Gentiles never had previously.

Now to come to the question of what place does righteousness have in the example. Is it a ticket to get on the bus? When Abraham believed did God hand him a stub?

Hammster said:

If you are part of it, then it’s not the fruit of the Spirit. It’s the fruit of the Spirit and fhansen.

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"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

The "if" is a contingency that I must fulfill, the role of my will. God wants this to be a willing marriage, a partnership, for our good. His glory is reflected in the justice residing inside His creation as it -as we -willingly participate.

Hammster said:

In your understanding, how are wicked people saved?

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Romans 6:16 "obedience unto righteousness"

Obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then freed free sin (justified) Romans 6:17-18


Obedience to the will of God is the cure for sin, wickedness.

TheSeabass said:

It was a statement showing that man can do good, therefore many have a misunderstanding of Romans 3:12.

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It’s impossible to good outside of the goodness of God within us.

Hammster said:

That doesn’t address the question.

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Yes it does.

dad said:

Our part is to let Him be and work in us. A lamp with oil can burn, otherwise it will just burn out. If people have the love of God in them, it shows.

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If WE don’t choose to love God, it will never happen. But I agree it shows. It’s just pretty rare.

1 Kings 8:18 and Jeremiah 17:10 come to mind.

Hammster said:

You are going to have to explain a little better. I’m having trouble understanding your meaning.

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You asked "how are wicked people saved?"

For the lost, wicked to be saved, they must choose to obey the will of God, then they can be saved...God accepts those that 'worketh righteousness" (Acts of the Apostles 10:35).

Hence Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness". Romans 6:16

There is no such thing as "disobedience unto righteousness".

Hammster said:

Even in that example, you aren’t producing fruit.

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Yes, it's true that the fruit comes from Him. But I can still prevent its flowering, so it takes both.

dad said:

Our part is to let Him be and work in us. A lamp with oil can burn, otherwise it will just burn out. If people have the love of God in them, it shows.

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I assure you God is and we cannot prevent Him from being nor give him permission to be. We need to surrender, not grant God something he needs “to be.”

fhansen said:

Yes, it's true that the fruit comes from Him. But I can still prevent its flowering, so it takes both.

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If we don’t surrender, it won’t happen. We are not passive.

Hammster said:

Abraham didn’t make himself righteous.

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If he hadn’t obeyed he wouldn’t have enjoyed the status he did. Sacrificing is never “letting God” be.

Hammster said:

Then we are saved by works of righteousness, not by faith.

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We are NOT saved by doing OUR OWN righteousness, but we ARE saved by doing GOD'S righteousness.

Some 'faith only' proponents sometimes want to try and blur the line between a man doing his OWN righteousness and a man doing GOD'S righteousness as if there is no difference....when there is a night and day difference.

Psalms 119:172 "....for all thy commandments are righteousness."

So in Acts 2:38 when God (through Peter) commanded men to repent and be baptized, then that command to repent and be baptized is GOD'S righteousness and those that obey that command of God are doing GOD'S righteousness and not their own righteousness. If/when a man says he will save himself by 'believing only' then that man is doing his OWN righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto (GOD'S righteousness)."

Note how Paul's brethren in the flesh, the Jews, were lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness (followed their OWN traditions) and would not follow/submit/obey GOD'S righteousness. In the context or Romans 10 the Jews were lost for they did not follow GOD'S righteousness in believing and confessing as God requires man to do to be saved Again, they were following their OWN made up traditions instead of submitting and obeying GOD'S righteous will.

Since men are commanded by God to have faith/believe, then those that have faith/belief are doing GOD'S righteousness

Dorothy Mae said:

If WE don’t choose to love God, it will never happen. But I agree it shows. It’s just pretty rare.

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Right, and when we choose to get saved and accept His gift of life, that is coming to Him. After that, the issue is not salvation but abiding in Him in order to bear fruit.

Dorothy Mae said:

I assure you God is and we cannot prevent Him from being nor give him permission to be. We need to surrender, not grant God something he needs “to be.”

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He is, but He is only in us once we ask for Him to come in. Otherwise He is very much prevented from really being in our heart and lives.