Which is the most accurate text?

_Dave_ said:

I can't speak for everybody, but I am not disputing that John is watching an episode play out in the throne room of heaven where the strong angel asks who is worthy to open the book. It's your imposing a timing theory on the event, necessitating a long period of time going backward between contiguous passages that I question.

Correct me if I've got it wrong, but you are saying that:

• Around 95AD John is called up to the throne room of heaven to witness things that are in the future after 95AD.

Revelation 4:11 -- After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

• But he is immediately cast into a vision of some time a good 60 years before that where the angel is asking who is worthy to open the book.

Revelation 5:2 -- And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time 60-year flashback.)​

• Then, the time shifts within moments to several years later to allow Christ to be crucified and resurrected in order to receive the scroll.

Revelation 5:6 -- And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time moving forward of a few years, but still a flashback to decades before John's real-time visit to heaven.)​

• Then, within the same event, John sees at least 2,000 years later the beginning of the opening of the seals which Jesus was just handed. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time leap of at least 2,000 years into the future, as all that John had seen is already at least 2,000 years in his future, and still in our future in fact, as the end times tribulation has not yet begun.)

This is what's interesting: Of the 25 verses in Revelation 4-5 fully 21 of them begin with the conjunction "and." One dictionary defines "and" as:

1. a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause.
2. the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space.​

It's particularly poignant that the conjunction "and" joins the end of Chapter 5 with the beginning of Chapter 6, meaning the events shown as beginning in Chapter 6, the opening of the seals, immediately follows the events in the previous chapter, the giving of the scroll to Christ; which immediately follows the angel asking who is worthy to open the scroll.

One widely recognized rule of good hermeneutics is that when a literal interpretation makes sense, seek no other interpretation. There is literally no problem with interpreting the events of Chapters 4 and 5, leading into Chapter 6, as a contiguous series of events unfolding from beginning to end, with the conclusion being the opening of the seals in Chapter 6.

However, imposing an unnecessary back-and-forth timeline on these contiguous events creates confusion and, furthermore, is not supported in the text.

The introduction to this passage that begins in Revelation 4:1 is absolutely unambiguous: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." And there is no text in Chapters 4 and 5 cancelling that pronouncement. Like I said, the vast majority of verses in the two chapters begin with the conjunction "and" bridging each verse to the next in an unbroken series of contiguous events.

Iamlamad, my challenge to you is to show the text cancelling the "hereafter" that proves your theory about the flashback that you say John witnesses.

Click to expand...

It seems I have done a good job explaining and you have understood.

(Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time 60-year flashback.) Certainly there is, but it is not real obvious. People just read over these verses and don't get the intent of the Author. The support is the entire narrative starting with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, then the Holy Spirit there instead of already sent down, then "no man found." A vision of the past answers all of these very well.

Many have disagreed with me but none have come up with another therory that answers these questions as well.

time shifts within moments to several years later to allow Christ to be crucified and resurrected in order to receive the scroll. Time passes on, but not as you said. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father shows us He was on the earth or under the earth at that point in time. The Holy Spirit there shows us He had not yet ascended, so again, still on the earth or under the earth.

"no man found" and then Jesus found tells us He has just risen from the dead - so we can pinpoint the time more closely. We can certainly see time passing. Just Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father could be any time during His 32 years on earth. "no man found" can be any time of those 32 years up to the time He rose from the dead. Putting all three together into one narrative would seem to me to indicate that the first two, Jesus not seen at the Father's right hand, and the Holy Spirit still there was while Jesus was UNDER the ground. He then rose from the dead and was immediately found worthy to take the book. He had become the Redeemer. Men could now become born again.

in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain He was NOT There, and suddenly He appeared. We know the story from other scriptures: Jesus appeared to Mary and said He had not yet ascended, telling us His plan was to ascend. It seems very likely then that after He sent Mary away He DID ascend.

It should not be so difficult then to see that John saw this very moment in time when Jesus ascended back into the throne room and then sent the Holy Spirit down?

there is no Scriptural support for a real-time moving forward of a few years Certainly there IS! Jesus was NOT found and then later WAS FOUND. That is the movement of time. What we don't know and cannot ascertain from John, is if this time was hours, days or weeks: John gives us no indication of how long. It could have been seconds! Common sense tells us there was time before Jesus rose from the dead - then He rose as time moved on.

We could say the same thing: there was TIME before Jesus ascended ( a throne room without Jesus) and then as time passed Jesus ascended and then it was a throne room with Christ seen at the right hand of the Father, as Stephen saw Him.

Consider Rev. 12: 1-5: a VERY BRIEF and very symbolic narrative of Jesus' birth, then how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child, and then His entire life in one verse: He was caught up.

In chapters 4 & 5, God is giving us a VERY BRIEF narrative of HOW and WHEN Jesus got the book into HIS hands and began opening the seals. Perhaps you are too close to a tree and cannot see the forest.

Did you notice? "stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes..." When Jesus ascended, He ascended filled with the Holy Spirit (without measure). But in the same sentence the Holy Spirit left Him and was sent down to the earth. This is difficult to picture since the Holy Spirit is omnipresent - but it is written.

Then, within the same event, John sees at least 2,000 years later the beginning of the opening of the seals which Jesus was just handed. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time leap of at least 2,000 years into the future
WOW! You said a mouthful there but it appears you don't believe what you said! There IS NO 2000 years there. It is good that you recognize it. That is my point! Jesus got the book and began opening the seals RIGHT THEN - as soon as He ascended. The first seal represents the church starting out with the gospel in 32 AD! You cannot find 2000 years there because that is not the Author's intent: IT IS NOT THERE! The whole purpose of chapters 4 & 5 is to establish the TIMING of the first seal!

What you miss: in your preconceptions, you imagine that the "tribulation" or 70th week begins with the first seal. You are OFF by 2000 years. the "trib" or 70th week begins at the 7th seal. You are also 6 seals off from truth. Seal 1 is the CHURCH with the GOSPEL.
(for 2000 years the church has been between the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - and the 6th seal which begins the Day of the Lord. Paul taught us that the Day of the Lord is a back to back event with the rapture - they cannot be separated: the moment after the rapture, the Day of the Lord comes.

It's particularly poignant that the conjunction "and" joins the end of Chapter 5 with the beginning of Chapter 6, meaning the events shown as beginning in Chapter 6, the opening of the seals, immediately follows the events in the previous chapter, the giving of the scroll to Christ; which immediately follows the angel asking who is worthy to open the scroll.
WOW AGAIN! You have shocked me. FINALLY someone is getting this! Why is it you see this? Because it is the very intent of the Author! Chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT of the first seal. John did not write "chapter 6.) God is setting the TIMING of Jesus getting the book and beginning to open the seals. People have IMAGINED for centuries that the seals are a part of the "tribulation." They have been mistaken. The age of grace passes and the Day starts between the 5th and 6th seal. Anyone with careful reading should be able to see this.

I think most would have seen this long ago but for TWO WORDS written in chapter 7 about the great crowd too large to number. Make no mistake, this is the just raptured church seen in heaven. But John wrote that these came out of great tribulation. So most people instantly imagine they came out of the days Jesus spoke of. No, John has not yet even started the week. the days of GT that Jesus spoke of won't even begin until between chapters 14 and 15. We see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15!

It is clear John has another meaning in mind. I can convinced John is telling us that at the time of the rapture, people we be being martyred around the world. We are almost there now!

imposing an unnecessary back-and-forth timeline on these contiguous events creates confusion and, furthermore, is not supported in the text. There is no "back and forth!" Jesus is not seen in the throne room, because He has not yet risen from the dead. the Holy Spirit is there because Jesus has not yet risen from the dead and ascended. "no man was found" because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.

Finally as time passed Jesus WAS found worthy, because He had just risen from the dead. Shortly after He rose from the dead, He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. John is marching us straight through time.

God wanted to show John (and in turn us) the book. He chose to start the narrative while the book was still in the Father's hand. I think God had ever right to do it exactly as He did it - starting by showing John a vision of a throne room of John's past - a time before Jesus ascended. In other words, all this was NECESSARY for the way God chose to show John the vision starting with the book still on the FAther's hands.

Stop and think: how would YOU have told this story, if you were to write it? It is 60 years past the events and you must write some history. How would you tell it?

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Did you notice? There is NOTHING in that sentence that forbids God staring with things past. From the 6th seal on all IS future events - with minor exceptions. God therefore DID fulfill this promise. You have no right to impose an "only" into this sentence! God did not tell John He would tell him ONLY of things hereafter.

Iamlamad, my challenge to you is to show the text cancelling the "hereafter" There is no need to cancel it: God DID show John many things STILL not fulfilled.

Dave, yours was a very well written post. Good job!

Choose Wisely said:

He has been shown this before and just ignores it. He is always talking about timing and intent of the author and then looks the other way when timing when the timing is clearly given that disproves what he is saying. Admitting an error and learning the truth would be a good course of action.

Click to expand...

Hmmm. Nothing has ever been given that disproves what I am saying. It is impossible because I am saying exactly what John wrote.
TRUTH:
John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father You seem to imagine He is there but not seen.

Truth: John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4. You seem to ignore this truth.

Truth: John heard and saw this angel proclaim WHO IS WORTHY.....but "no man was found." you seem to ignore this truth and just jump ahead to the next verse. Trust me: God did NOT waste words here: He is TELLING us something.

Truth: after time passed THEN Jesus became worthy and it was told John that He "prevailed" to take the book and open the seals.

Truth: John then saw Jesus where He had not been before. You apparently imagine He was there but not seen.

Challenge: come up with a scenario that fits all these truths. I already have: it was a vision of the past while Jesus was under the earth. If you disagree, come up with a better solution.

Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

It is clearly after the rapture and just before the tribulation. The Father said His Son -

"Sit at My right hand TILL I make your enemies Your footstool,"

This has yet to happen. Then -

"The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!" (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

There are at least a dozen verses telling us that Jesus went to set at the Father's right hand. Stephen SAW Him there.

Therefore, Jesus has been seated at the Father's right hand. What is still future is making His enemies His footstool.

Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

The throne in Rev. 4 is `set up by the Father so that the Son can be seen as the visible ruler over all. At the moment, we know that He is at the right hand of the Father until the Father brings all enemies to His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) (Invisible in the Godhead.)

In Rev. 5 we see a pictorial illustration of what is happening. The Father is shown to reach out His right hand, but we know that God is spirit and does not have hands etc. Then we see Jesus represented by the `lion and lamb` indicating His identity from His manifestation on earth as a man.

He is recognised by all as the Worthy One to receive all the power and authority, (etc) from the Father to rule visibly, (not invisibly in the Godhead) from the highest realm.

When the Lord is thus acclaimed, then we, the Body of Christ will be there too. (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Yet, when John looked into the throne room, Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father. WHY?
The Holy Spirit WAS seen by John in the throne room, when we would expect Him to have been sent down. WHY?
"No man was found" after the angel proclaimed "WHO IS WORTHY.... WHY?

We find the answers in chapter 5: Suddenly Jesus appeared back in the throne room He had left 32 years before - and immediately sent the Holy Spirit down.

Choose Wisely said:

Rev 4
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The text clearly says hereafter. Therefore it is impossible for it not to be hereafter because God said it and He does not lie. Anything you happen to come up with is merely you dreaming up a scenario that goes against the word of God.

Rev 1
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This is further proven by Rev 1:19, when John is told to write the things which though hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. It's pretty easy to determine that things which shall be hereafter are after the things that are.

The rider on the white horse has not ridden yet as that event occurs after the things which are. No amount of false logic and private interpretation is going to change the truth.

Click to expand...

You are inserting an ONLY in the text that is not there. it is your preconception that God said He would show John ONLY things in the hereafter. He did NOT! The "only" is only in your preconceptions.

Question: DID God show John things in his future? Answer: MOST CERTAINLY!

Do you imagine that when Satan drew a third of the angels to follow him it is sometime in our FUTURE? NO, and thousand times NO! that happened before Adam was created. Yet, it is written in chapter 12.

You have failed the test: you CAN'T come up with any scenario that fits the text of chapters 4 & 5. You deny it is history, you imagine it is future, but you can't tell us the real meaning.

Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Remember that the Godhead is Spirit, and invisible, (to us). They are above the created order. The throne that the Lord went to at the Father`s right hand is above all and not in the created order. It is only when the Father makes the Lord`s enemies His footstool that the glorified Jesus is given His own throne, His own authority, by the Father. And that throne is what we see set up in the third heaven.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, everywhere so He is NOT just in heaven.

No man was found for Jesus was in the Godhead He is Deity. He is son of God, son of man. Thus when no man was found worthy, Jesus comes forth from the Godhead and is revealed in His earthly identity - Lion/Lamb.

You are misunderstanding God the Father`s purpose for the Lord to have His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) where He will bring the judgments upon the world.

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Marilyn, there are over a dozen verses telling us Jesus ascended to be at the right hand of the Father or the right hand of power. Stephen SAW Him there.

In 95 AD believers should EXPECT Him to be seen at the right hand of power - yet He was not seen there. This should be telling you something in relation to TIME.

Then John saw a search for one worthy and no man was found. This should be telling you something in relation to TIME.

John saw the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, when we would expect, in 95 AD, that He would be on the earth. In fact, in chapter 5 we read that He was sent down. This should be telling you something in relation to TIME.

Choose Wisely said:

Why do you keep using us? I see no one agreeing with the things that your are making up.
I must admit.........are you kidding.......or is this for real? What are you talking about? It's like you operate in a completely different language.

How does this work anyway? You show up for work and the boss says, "after you work this week, on Friday, you will get paid". Do you just stick your hand out expecting your money? Boss says,"what do you have your hand out for". Do you tell him that he is inserting the word only, and you expect your money today? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Click to expand...

"US" is everyone who reads what you write.

It is TRUTH: God did not put an "only" in that verse which makes it legal to use some history, which He does. You seem to think after that verse that God could only write FUTURE events. Why not just admit you are mistaken? Or is that impossible?

Choose Wisely said:

So when God says "write the things which thou has seen" Does that limit Paul to writing the things that he hast seen........... or can he just write whatever he wants? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Click to expand...

Not Paul; John. Why do you argue so hard against what is clearly written? There are parts of Revelation that are very clearly HISTORY and were history to John.

Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

I agree that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. And that place is in the Godhead beyond the created order, that is why they never found a `worthy man,` for Jesus was in the Godhead, deity.

What Stephen saw was with His spiritual eyes, (our eyes do not see into space). He was given a vision of the Lord, just as we see in Rev. 5 a pictorial vision of the Lord and the Father with His `right hand` outstretched. The Father is a spirit and thus does NOT have a right hand.

Also remember that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, (everywhere) and thus what is `seen` in Rev. 4 is another pictorial representation of the Holy Spirit as the `fire,` the 7 fold lamp of God.

Then again when Jesus ascended to the Father, the Father gave Him the Holy Spirit to come to the believers to give them the life of Christ. But the Holy Spirit was still working in the world as well. He is omnipresent.

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Marilyn, how do you KNOW God does not have hands?
Jesus was a "man." He came to earth for that specific purpose: to become a "man." And they DId find a man worthy, when Jesus rose from the dead.

I agree that Revelation is written with many "pictorial representations." My point here is to demonstrate what God was "demonstrating" by showing John a throne room (supposedly in 95 AD) but Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father. John was in the spirit so IF Jesus had been there, of course He would have been SEEN there. It was God's EXPRESS PURPOSE to show us a throne room with Jesus ABSENT.

Yes, agreed: the Holy Spirit is everywhere: but God CHOSE to show John the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4 - for a good reason.
Notice in chapter 5 when Jesus ascended, He ascended WITH the Holy Spirit - but immediately sent the Holy Spirit down.