LDS Mormons Versus Protestants

One of the most consistent arguments that we find ourselves up against is "If you're a Christian, then where's your cross?".

What does that say to you?

Ironhold said:

One of the most consistent arguments that we find ourselves up against is "If you're a Christian, then where's your cross?".

What does that say to you?

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That you think you're really good at summarizing other people's arguments, but don't actually know what you're talking about?

Phoebe Ann said:

Gordon B. Hinckley explained:

“I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian brethren who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the living Christ...

"I responded: 'I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian brethren who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the living Christ....'

"I replied that the lives of our people must become the only meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship."
The Symbol of Christ

That is what I was taught.

But, why then do military headstones of deceased LDS have Moroni on them instead of something else?

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Most of the headstones of members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints that I have seen have the temple on them to show their commitment to God. I am sure you know that we do not worship Moroni.

Phoebe Ann said:

But, why then do military headstones of deceased LDS have Moroni on them instead of something else?

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I'll have to see if it's still floating around, but a few years ago I found a chart listing the available icons for use with military headstones by religious belief.

Each belief system had one and only one accepted icon, and each icon was so distinctive in nature from each other that if someone was familiar with each individual symbol they could tell one faith from another at a glance.

Ironhold said:

One of the most consistent arguments that we find ourselves up against is "If you're a Christian, then where's your cross?".

What does that say to you?

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That the cross is a potent symbol of Christianity, and is indeed, the substance and center of Christian conviction, faith, confession; laying at the heart of what it means to call oneself Christ's own.

"But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." - Galatians 4:16

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2

"[L]ooking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." - Hebrews 12:2

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1 Corinthians 1:18




Thanks and praise be to God.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen. This is the Christian faith, East and West, and throughout all times.

Orthodox:


We bow for the Cross
which gave salvation for our souls
And together with the thief, we say:
"Remember us, O Christ, when You come"

Catholic:


He bore the holy cross which broke the power of hell
He was girded with power
He rose again the third day
Alleluia

Christ has risen
And shone upon His people
Whom He has bought back with His own blood
Alleluia

He bore the holy cross which broke the power of hell
He was girded with power
He rose again the third day
Alleluia

Christ has risen
Now He does not die
Death will not master Him
Alleluia

He bore the holy cross which broke the power of hell
He was girded with power
He rose again the third day
Alleluia

Christ has risen
The stone that the architects rejected
He has become the chief cornerstone
Alleluia

Protestant (I don't know which particular Protestant tradition; sorry)


Jesus, keep me near the cross;
there a precious fountain,
free to all, a healing stream,
flows from Calvary's mountain.

In the cross, in the cross,
be my glory ever,
till my raptured soul shall find
rest beyond the river.

Near the cross, a trembling soul,
love and mercy found me;
there the bright and morning star
sheds its beams around me.

Near the cross! O Lamb of God,
bring its scenes before me;
help me walk from day to day
with its shadow o'er me.

Near the cross I'll watch and wait,
hoping, trusting ever,
till I reach the golden strand
just beyond the river.

dzheremi said:

Amen. This is the Christian faith, East and West, and throughout all times.

We bow for the Cross
which gave salvation for our souls

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The cross never gave salvation for anyone's soul.

It is Jesus that gave salvation by giving his life upon the cross.

The Church of Jesus Christ has reverence for the cross, but never an attitude of worship, manifested in bowing before it, or kissing it, or suggesting that the cross saves people.

I guess LDS members don’t recognize the cross as the bookend marker to the ‘tree of life.’

Peter1000 said:

The cross never gave salvation for anyone's soul.

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Metonymy of the Adjunct, when that which pertains to anything is put for the thing itself.

Tigger45 said:

I guess LDS members don’t recognize the cross as the bookend marker to the ‘tree of life.’

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You will need to explain that further, thanks.

drstevej said:

Metonymy of the Adjunct, when that which pertains to anything is put for the thing itself.

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So you are saying that 'the cross gives salvation' is a figure of speech?

Well that is good. I accept.

Do you worship the cross?

Yes it is a figure of the speech. I do not worship the cross. When I see one I am reminded of His death on a cross in my place. Even a piece of the actual cross would not incite any worship from me.

Peter1000 said:

You will need to explain that further, thanks.

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As the first Adam was disobedient to God’s will concerning the tree of life in the garden of Eden, Christ as the second Adam was obedient to God’s will concerning the cross as He spoke in the garden of Gethsemane. Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I clicked "show ignored posts". I am now regretting that decision.

I will say, with regard to veneration, that it obviously takes different forms in different churches and traditions. This is not really the place to discuss it (as the thread is "Mormons vs. Protestants", not "How do different churches venerate icons/recognize and honor the presence of God in His creation, including specific people and places"), but just to clarify now that I can see that Peter1000 has responded to my post (in quite a hacky way, if I can say that), that it is as the other people -- who are actually Protestants -- have said: the object itself is treated as what it stands for, rather than for what it physically is.

You do not think that the pictures that you have of your family in your home are themselves your family members, right? You can recognize that they are not 'trapped' in the photos or whatever. Neither is any icon but a representation of whatever or whoever it represents, or any hand-cross held by a priest or a monk for blessings and prayer but a representation of the faith that we have (all of us, no matter what type of Christian you are) in the power of Christ's redeeming death, and His defeat of death in His glorious and triumphant resurrection, and that He will return as He said He would, in His glory, to judge the living and the dead. We can certainly get into the theology of why this is expressed differently in different places (in terms of what actions are taken or not taken in veneration), but this is not the thread for it. I only posted in this thread to begin with the examples of Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant hymns on the cross to show that the belief is the same. I imagine that no Protestant can call himself or herself a Christian if they do not believe that the cross gave us salvation, as it was through Christ's sacrifice upon it that we now have been offered eternal life. Even Peter1000 has made that distinction himself in his reply to me, so I don't know why the accompanying connection is not being made, as every Christian rightly makes.

Except I really do know why: Because Mormons do not have any theology of the cross; because they treat it as though our Lord's holy body was not upon it, so that it is not transformed, and remains as it was an instrument of death, rather than a symbol of eternal life and the holy sacrifice made upon it to bring us from the darkness to the light.

So they see the cross and it's just a cross, and it's never done anything for anyone, and blahblablah. So they revile it, because they cannot understand it, due to the theology that they accept in place of it. It is, in a way, a rehash of their inability to think beyond the material regarding other facets of basic Christian theology (e.g., the Trinity and trying to get them to understand that, which by this point I frankly refuse to do anymore, because it's like herding cats times a million, and I've already written so much on it, with the same posters, over and over).

They cannot handle the spirituality of Christian symbolism and the uncontroversial Christian theology behind it, again because of what they have accepted instead. Truly the apostle St. Paul was correct when he taught the Corinthians that the preaching of the Cross is a "stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Greeks." I'm not sure where that places Mormons, but they're definitely not among the Christians, who preach Christ crucified and glory in the cross, following the explicit example of the same apostle in the Holy Scriptures. (That we preach Christ crucified is also in first Corinthians, 1:23, while "God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" is in Galatians 6:14.)

This may be of help. From a Protestant Christian, documenting early Christian symbolism in the catacombs;

Early Christian Symbols of the Ancient Church from the Catacombs

dzheremi says:

So they see the cross and it's just a cross, and it's never done anything for anyone, and blahblablah. So they revile it, because they cannot understand it, due to the theology that they accept in place of it.

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You do not have to try to teach us of the spiritual symbolism of the cross, we get it, I promise. We beleive the following also:
1 Corinthians 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

We certainly do not revile the cross, as you have said. You know we do not revile the cross. How can we possibly revile the cross?

I imagine that no Protestant can call himself or herself a Christian if they do not believe that the cross gave us salvation, as it was through Christ's sacrifice upon it that we now have been offered eternal life.

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Notice how the Church of Jesus Christ would quote this statement:
I imagine that no Protestant can call himself or herself a Christian if they do not believe that it was through Christ's sacrifice upon the cross that we now have been offered eternal life.

The cross can be your visual spiritual representation of that sacrifice, but do not give it powers that it does not have.

As I have said, we reverence the cross and the events that took place there, but we do not worship the cross.[/QUOTE]