Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

Did event of Israel 1948 fulfill any Bible prophecy?


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keras

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The fruit of Gentiles who are in Christ is the same as the fruit of Jews who are in Christ.

So how do you distinguish Gentiles in Christ from Jews in Christ if they bear the same fruit?
The Jews are Israelites too.
It is God who knows who His people are. We can only guess, but to guess that those peoples who are called Caucasian, who originated from the area where the House of Israel was exiled to by Assyria, it is more of a proof of our ancestry, than a guess.
There are as well, historical records, archeological signs and heraldic and linguistic proofs

However; you and many other respected scholars refute this idea. Why?, because it is God's secret and He will reveal it to all when the time is right. That could be very soon.
 
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jgr

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It is God who knows who His people are. We can only guess

There is not a scintilla of Scripture which suggests that we must guess who God's people are. You acknowledged that in your previous post: "Simple: We know them by their fruit."

The ultimate expression of that fruit is love borne of faith and obedience. No secret. No mystery. There for all to see.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
 
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claninja

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None needed.

Anyone on here can make a statement about anything, but if you wish to have a discussion, evidence to support your position is recommended.

Per forum rules: " When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial."

Compare the 390 days for Israel with the 40 days for Judah. Judah was freed from Babylonian captivity about 40 years after Ezekiel wrote the account, therefore...

I'm not following your x means y because z logic here. Let's stick with what scripture states, which is that Ezekiel was to lay on his side for 390 days, which represented 390 years of Israel's iniquity.

Ezekiel 4:5 For I have assigned you the years of their iniquity according to the number of days you lie down, 390 days; so you will bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

The point is that God kept his people separate from the gentiles, even while living among them. They were on one side of the sieve basket, the gentiles on the other.

I would disagree with your interpretation, that the sieve is what separates Israel from the nations.

If the correct translation for tsrowr is grain, then I would argue the chaff, and straw, and dust of the grain that falls through the sieve are those of Israel carried off into the nations, while the grain is the remnant that remains in Israel.

If the correct translation for tsrowr is pebble, then I would agrue everything that falls through the sieve into the nations is Israel that mixes with the nations, while the pebbles that remain are destroyed, as the next very verse implies:

Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, ‘Disaster shall not overtake or meet us


There is no birthright mentioned in Genesis 48 or 49, only a blessing. The birthright is different than the blessing. Esau clearly makes a distinction between the birthright and the blessing.

Genesis 27:36 So Esau declared, “Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has cheated me twice. He took my birthright, and now he has taken my blessing.

The Israelites were living among the Samaritans. That's who Jesus went to, and sent the disciples to. Read the accounts of his visit to the two women carefully.

Correct, Jesus did visit samiritan women. But the Samaritans aren't the lost sheep of Israel, I think we agree?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I'm not following your x means y because z logic here. Let's stick with what scripture states, which is that Ezekiel was to lay on his side for 390 days, which represented 390 years of Israel's iniquity.

All we have to determine what 390 and 40 mean is that Judah was freed about 40 year later, therefore we can assume that Israel was freed after 390 years of captivity. However in regard to Israel we don't know who was their captors all those years, and how many were actually in captivity. We just have to guess.

I would disagree with your interpretation, that the sieve is what separates Israel from the nations.

If the correct translation for tsrowr is grain, then I would argue the chaff, and straw, and dust of the grain that falls through the sieve are those of Israel carried off into the nations, while the grain is the remnant that remains in Israel.

If the correct translation for tsrowr is pebble, then I would agrue everything that falls through the sieve into the nations is Israel that mixes with the nations, while the pebbles that remain are destroyed, as the next very verse implies:

The point is that God kept Israel ethnically pure while scattered among the nations. That's what the function of the sieve was, the final cleaning and preparation of the grain for milling. There would be no 'pebbles' left among the grain.

There is no birthright mentioned in Genesis 48 or 49, only a blessing. The birthright is different than the blessing. Esau clearly makes a distinction between the birthright and the blessing.

Genesis 27:36 So Esau declared, “Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has cheated me twice. He took my birthright, and now he has taken my blessing

The term birthright only appears a few times, but can be discerned by the context and by description. The birthright can also be a 'blessing', though perhaps not in the same way it pertained to Jacob and Esau.

Correct, Jesus did visit samiritan women. But the Samaritans aren't the lost sheep of Israel, I think we agree?

Read the accounts.

Matthew 15
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The interchange indicates that she knew who he was and he knew who she was...one of the lost sheep he was 'sent only' to.

The other woman (the woman at the well) also indicated that she was a descendant of Jacob.

The 'lost sheep' were the descendants of the northern kingdom that remained or returned to Samaria after the Assyrian conquest. This also confirms that the Israelites would be 'scattered' among the gentiles, yet their identity would be known to God and to Jesus. There's no contradiction in the account.
 
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parousia70

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No because you are using an extreme example that is not a normal situation! And you know that!

Fairly run of the mill example actually... and quite pertinent to today's situation for anyone who's keen on reinstating the Temple and Priesthood I'd Say...

And you know what I meant. Why you are being so nit picky! I can trust in god knowing He knows who are Israelis and who are not!

Israelis? Israelis are a multi ethnic lot. genetics is irrelevant to being an "Israeli"... Plenty of Arab Muslim/Christian Israelis.

Of these three types of Israelis, Which would you say are God's Covenant People TODAY?
The Jewish Israeli, the Muslim Israeli or the Christian Israeli?

If you know of someone who had the chutzpah to change their last name to a Jewish priest name- let me know.
Happens all the time...

You seem to forget God can take care of these issues in these last days.

Well, since God can raise all sons of Abraham he could ever need from a pile of rocks, seems to me He doesn't need any current "Levinthals, Levines or Levinsteins" to select from does He?
 
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parousia70

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That could be very soon.

It's always soon isnt it?

But I can never tell what you mean by Soon.... in one breath you say soon means thousands of years, and in another you say it means ... months... or weeks... or days?.... hours?

In classic boy who cried wolf style, you've rendered the term "soon", when you use it, meaningless.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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.

Of these three types of Israelis, Which would you say are God's Covenant People TODAY?
The Jewish Israeli, the Muslim Israeli or the Christian Israeli?

Christian of course.
 
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claninja

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All we have to determine what 390 and 40 mean is that Judah was freed about 40 year later, therefore we can assume that Israel was freed after 390 years of captivity. However in regard to Israel we don't know who was their captors all those years, and how many were actually in captivity. We just have to guess.

I'm still not following your logic

The northern kingdom was taken captive in around 722 BC, 390 years later would be around 332 BC, so you believe the northern kingdom was freed in 332 BC?

The last vision (ezekiel 40-48) given to Ezekiel was given in the 25th year of exile, 14 years after Jerusalem was destroyed


Ezekiel 40:1 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month—

That means there was 45 years of exile for Judah when Ezekiel received his final vision, not 40.


Additionally, Ezekiel does not say the punishment is to last 390 years. Ezekiel was to lay on his side for 390 days to represent the 390 years of Israel's INIQUITY.

Ezekiel 4:5 For I have assigned you the years of their iniquity according to the number of days you lie down, 390 days; so you will bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.



The point is that God kept Israel ethnically pure while scattered among the nations.

We have no historical record of this. so this would be under the assumption that your interpretation is correct.

That's what the function of the sieve was, the final cleaning and preparation of the grain for milling.

I agree, the function of the sieve was for separating the loose chaff, straw, and dirt from the grain. Larger "pebbles" and grain would stay in the sieve, while the loose chaff, straw, and dirt would fall to the ground.

I'm not sure what this has to do with "maintaining ethnic purity" as you claim. Regardless of "ethnic purity" or not, Ephraim became as gentiles through their divorce from God. Especially considering Paul doesn't make any distinction between Ephraim and gentiles in romans 9. Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the jews in the vessels or mercy.


The term birthright only appears a few times, but can be discerned by the context and by description. The birthright can also be a 'blessing', though perhaps not in the same way it pertained to Jacob and Esau.

The birthright is the double portion inheritance. It is not the same as the prophetic blessings.

Read the accounts.

Matthew 15
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The interchange indicates that she knew who he was and he knew who she was...one of the lost sheep he was 'sent only' to.

The other woman (the woman at the well) also indicated that she was a descendant of Jacob.

The Samaritans are not necissarily the lost sheep of Israel, for Jesus tells the disciples not to go the town of the Samaritans but only the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus is not admitting that the Canaanite is of the lost sheep of Israel. In fact, that is why he does not answer her in the first place. The woman begs jesus and He states "it's not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs". Israel is the children, the Canaanite woman is the dog.

Matthew 15:22-28 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

The other woman (the woman at the well) also indicated that she was a descendant of Jacob.

When Ephraim was divorced, it became no longer God's people and God was no longer their God (hosea 1:9). Thus, descendants of Jacob through the northern kingdom's side that remained "ethnically pure" as you put it or mixed with the gentiles, would still be not God's people, until their inclusion in new covenant. Therefore, even if the samaritan woman did descend from Jacob through Ephraim, under the old covenant, she was not recognized as Israel.

Hence when the disciples return, they are surprised Jesus was taking with her.

John 4:27 27Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?”

Notice what Josephus states of the Samaritans of that time: Josephus, Antiquities, 9.14,3:

" and are called in the Hebrew tongue Cutheans, but in the Greek tongue Samaritans. And when they see the Jews in prosperity, they pretend that they are changed, and allied to them; and call them kinsmen: as though they were derived from Joseph, and had by that means an original alliance with them. But when they see them falling into a low condition, they say they are no way related to them: and that the Jews have no right to expect any kindness or marks of kindred from them: but they declare that they are sojourners, that come from other countries."

The 'lost sheep' were the descendants of the northern kingdom that remained or returned to Samaria after the Assyrian conquest.

I agree. And scripture supports this. Scripture supports those from the northern kingdom living in Samarian and Jerusalem, after Israel had been removed and Judah was still a kingdom (2 chronicles 30). Scripture supports those from the northern kingdom living in the southern kingdom post Babylonian exile (1 chronicles 9).


 
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OldWiseGuy

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The birthright is the double portion inheritance. It is not the same as the prophetic blessings
.

Here the birthright is also a blessing, unless one says that the birthright was 'blessed' with 'additional' benefits. Of course what good is an inheritance if nothing is inherited? My older brother was the firstborn but our dad left nothing, in fact we had to take up a collection among ourselves to pay for his funeral.

In the case of the biblical birthright it was a 'promise' of wealth and power for a future generation, as is evidenced by the fact that it was never realized in biblical times.

Genesis 49:
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
 
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claninja

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Here the birthright is also a blessing, unless one says that the birthright was 'blessed' with 'additional' benefits. Of course what good is an inheritance if nothing is inherited? My older brother was the firstborn but our dad left nothing, in fact we had to take up a collection among ourselves to pay for his funeral.

In the case of the biblical birthright it was a 'promise' of wealth and power for a future generation, as is evidenced by the fact that it was never realized in biblical times.

Genesis 49:
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

As stated by the law of Moses, The birthright is the double portion inherited from the father.

Deuteronomy 21:17 Instead, he must acknowledge the firstborn, the son of his unloved wife, by giving him a double portion of all that he has.

Thus, Joseph was given 2 portions of Jacob's land, 1 tribe allotment for Ephraim and 1 for Mannaseh, while the other tribes only received 1 land allotment each. (except Levi, who had God as their inheritance).

All of Jacob's sons were blessed, not all were given a double portion. Only Joseph was given a double portion of the land.

The birthright is not the same as the blessing.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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As stated by the law of Moses, The birthright is the double portion inherited from the father.

Deuteronomy 21:17 Instead, he must acknowledge the firstborn, the son of his unloved wife, by giving him a double portion of all that he has.

Thus, Joseph was given 2 portions of Jacob's land, 1 tribe allotment for Ephraim and 1 for Mannaseh, while the other tribes only received 1 land allotment each. (except Levi, who had God as their inheritance).

All of Jacob's sons were blessed, not all were given a double portion. Only Joseph was given a double portion of the land.

The birthright is not the same as the blessing.

This isn't too important. No one received a 'double portion' of anything during the bible age. What is important is what the birthright was and who eventually received it.
 
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claninja

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These dates can be figured to reflect 40 years of captivity: 598 bce to 538 bce = 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity

Jewish history
Written By:


Last Updated: Apr 9, 2019 See Article History
Alternative Title: Babylonian Exile
Babylonian Captivity, also called Babylonian Exile, the forced detention of Jews in Babylonia following the latter’s conquest of the kingdom of Judah in 598/7 and 587/6 bce. The captivity formally ended in 538 bce, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. Historians agree that several deportations took place (each the result of uprisings in Palestine), that not all Jews were forced to leave their homeland, that returning Jews left Babylonia at various times, and that some Jews chose to remain in Babylonia—thus constituting the first of numerous Jewish communities living permanently in the Diaspora.

What? the kingdom of Judah was in Babylonian captivity for 70 years, as clearly stated in the scriptures.

Jeremiah 25:11-12 his whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste

2 Chronicles 36:20-21 He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

Daniel 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

Again, the scripture in Ezekiel 4 does not say 390 years of punishment. It says 390 years of iniquity.
 
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claninja

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This isn't too important. No one received a 'double portion' of anything during the bible age. What is important is what the birthright was and who eventually received it.

Did you even read my post? the house of Joseph received a double portion for the land, which was Jacob's inheritance, 1 tribe allotment for Ephraim and 1 tribe allotment for Manneseh.

This is supported by Joshua who gives the house of Joseph more than one allotment.


Joshua 17:17 Then Joshua said to the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and Manasseh, “You are a numerous people and have great power. You shall not have one allotment only.

Again, all the sons of Jacob are blessed, only Joseph was given the birthright of a double portion of land.

You are confusing the blessings with the birthright of a double portion.

 
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OldWiseGuy

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What? the kingdom of Judah was in Babylonian captivity for 70 years, as clearly stated in the scriptures.

Jeremiah 25:11-12 his whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste

2 Chronicles 36:20-21 He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

Yeah, I got that wrong. :(
 
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Copperhead

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Under the old covenant, proof, in the form of genealogical records, was needed to show that someone descended from Levi in order to be included in the priesthood. If proof could not be provided, the Urim and Thummin had to first be consulted.

Ezra 2:59-63 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, though they could not prove their fathers’ houses or their descent, whether they belonged to Israel: the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, and the sons of Nekoda, 652. Also, of the sons of the priests: the sons of Habaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, and the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife from the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called by their name). These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor told them that they were not to partake of the most holy food, until there should be a priest to consult Urim and Thummim.

Does anyone presently have their genealogical records proving they descended from Levi? Do we have the Urim and Thummim presently to consult? Does the old covenant still even exist?

Of all the tribes, those from Levi are probably the closest to being able to identify who is who. Those involved with the 3rd temple movement claim to have proven lineage of all the priests in training. Now, I suppose it could die by the cuts of a thousand conditions that anyone who objects would throw out there. It will never be good enough for those who are opposed to the whole idea.
 
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Copperhead

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Caucasian, who originated from the area where the House of Israel was exiled to by Assyria,

Except the archaeology records doesn't support the idea that all of Israel or even the majority of Israel was exiled by Assyria. The Archaeology records, based primarily on what has been found regarding Sargon of Assyria (Biblical Archaeology, VI, 1943, page 58) is that about 27,290 were deported and about 50 chariots.

When the Babylonians conquered Assyria, they got it all, including any of Israel. When they then captured Judah, they got those. More than likely they were all commingled in Babylon. Especially after Babylon sacked Nineveh and captured everyone. And many claims are that the Assyrians deported a significant majority of Israel to Nineveh. So even if that claim is true, Babylon still got them.

1 Chronicles has several passages that many of the northern tribes who chose to remain faithful to Yahweh migrated southward as the northern kingdom degraded from bad to worse. One of these migrations was over 100 years after the Assyrians had conquered Ephraim.

And Ezra and Nehemiah reflect that all the tribes were represented in their respective remnants. At least 8 tribes are specifically mentioned by name. Ezra's remnant, they are called Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. In Nehemiah, Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times.

Many of all the tribes were recognized as being in Judah.

2 Chronicles 11:2-3 (NKJV) But the word of the Lord came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 3 “Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,

Even Josephus claimed many of Israel were beyond the Euphrates. What is beyond the Euphrates but a large portion of the area of Babylon. When Ezra and Nehemiah brought those from Babylon back to Eretz Israel it was only a remnant. The majority remained in Babylon. Even Peter made it a mission of his to bring the Gospel to the Hebrews in Babylon. And the most extensive Talmud in Judaism is the Babylonian Talmud. No such thing as a Baltic Talmud, British Talmud, German Talmud, Russian Talmud, etc. Only other Talmud is the Jerusalem Talmud and it pales in comparison to and does not carry the weight of the the Babylonian Talmud.

Were there Hebrews that ended up scattered everywhere? Of course. But in virtually all instances they maintained their Hebrew identity and were distinguished from the people where they resided. And a significant portion of them can claim lineage to the tribe of Levi. And virtually all the Levites had migrated to the south before Israel fell to the Assyrians, so they were not part of any supposed deportation by Assyria.

And even after the bar Kochba revolt of 135AD which pretty much ended all Hebrew opposition to Rome, there has been significant Hebrew presence in the land. So much so that the Crusaders had no problem slaughtering thousands of Hebrews in their little adventures. In one instance 20,000 Hebrews were rounded up and locked into the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and the place was set on fire. There are records that show in some instances the Crusaders had contests to see how many Hebrew babies could a soldier fit on a sword. When modern Israel was formed in 1948, 80% of the Hebrews there were Sabras, or long time generational inhabitants of the land.
 
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jgr

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Of all the tribes, those from Levi are probably the closest to being able to identify who is who. Those involved with the 3rd temple movement claim to have proven lineage of all the priests in training. Now, I suppose it could die by the cuts of a thousand conditions that anyone who objects would throw out there. It will never be good enough for those who are opposed to the whole idea.

It is no less than the Jewish community itself who is opposed to the whole idea, as it is they who affirm that Abraham's lineage resides within the entirety of the human race.

Which dilutes lineage into irrelevance, as confirmed by covenant Scripture (Genesis 17:12).

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity
 
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