LDS Mormon Jesus Versus Christian Jesus

BigDaddy4

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Okay lets start over. In the Nicene Creed what do you consider the term "of the same substance" to mean?
Please note the "Agree" checkmark at the bottom of dzheremi's post #95. That was me. I agree with his post. What part of that is not clear? So this statement was not true:
It seems like you are the only one on this thread that has a different meaning for "of the same substance".

Speaking of dzheremi's post #95, I ESPECIALLY agree with this part of his post:
Oh no...not this again...I thought this would end when I blocked Peter1000! :doh:
:rolleyes:
 
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He is the way

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Please note the "Agree" checkmark at the bottom of dzheremi's post #95. That was me. I agree with his post. What part of that is not clear? So this statement was not true:


Speaking of dzheremi's post #95, I ESPECIALLY agree with this part of his post:

:rolleyes:
So then you don't believe that a person can become one with Jesus Christ as He is one with the Father as He stated?

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
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Peter1000

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That's a nice word search you've done, HITW (as usual), but what is it supposed to actually mean? Christ is also called (in Revelation 1:5) the "firstborn from the dead". Would your religion conclude then that scriptures tell us that as "spirit brothers" of Jesus, we are all dead? (Even as Mormonism very purposely eschews the cross which for all Christians is the symbol of life?)

Or do you reserve this absurd level of literalism for only those times when it suits you?
The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS does not eschew the cross. We simply do not worship it either.
 
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BigDaddy4

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So then you don't believe that a person can become one with Jesus Christ as He is one with the Father as He stated?

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Not in the sense that the lds try to redefine it. You will never share in God's divine essence, have His ability to create, or be your own god. The clay does not become the potter.
 
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Rescued One

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The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS does not eschew the cross. We simply do not worship it either.
Could you please enlighten me? Which group of people worship the cross?
 
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Rescued One

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It is reasonable to say that 'man' is in the image of God the Father, and that 'woman' is in the image of
God the Mother. It is reasonable to think that the relationship between God the Father and God the Mother is of a holy nature.
Pagan gods depict their women goddesses as unholy and licentious and that is where your mind is when considering a holy God the Mother, which is not reasonable.


There is no God the Mother! A god is worshiped by followers.
 
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Ironhold

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Could you please enlighten me? Which group of people worship the cross?

If the Cross itself isn't an object of worship, then how is it that it became so synonymous *with* Christianity that critics of the church have so consistently argued that anyone who doesn't display one cannot be one?
 
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mmksparbud

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If the Cross itself isn't an object of worship, then how is it that it became so synonymous *with* Christianity that critics of the church have so consistently argued that anyone who doesn't display one cannot be one?

No--not accurate. Some churches do not have a cross, we do not have them. We also do not have a lot of images of any kind. A lot of Catholic churches do have angels on top, theirs, and most others, have wings---I believe yours is the only one that the angels do not have wings.
Actually, the cross is also used to represent the dead---such as in cemeteries.
But it is used a lot in Christian churches to designate the cross which was used for the crucifixion. Most churches will also have some sort of depiction of Jesus either on the cross or at the Garden of Gethsemane.
Interesting that you claim to not worship the cross---then why do you have this so called angel Moroni on each temple? That smacks of angel worship--Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

The only images that God allowed were the angels on top of the heavenly ark, cherubim, which represented the Heavenly Ark---but it was not seen by the congregation--only by the High Priest. There cherubim embroidered on the veils.
The highest of the cherubim, the covering cherubs, of which Gabriel is one--all have wings. How come Moroni does not?
 
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dzheremi

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If the Cross itself isn't an object of worship, then how is it that it became so synonymous *with* Christianity that critics of the church have so consistently argued that anyone who doesn't display one cannot be one?

Hold on now. I was deeply involved with the last conversation on this topic, and no one at all ever said anything like "if you don't display a cross you cannot be a Christian." The argument made, if you'll remember (or just stop twisting things so as to create an easier to attack strawman), was that the Mormon reluctance to embrace the cross as the symbol of everlasting life that it has become through Jesus Christ's holy and perfect sacrifice upon it marks Mormonism as majorly out of step with Christianity, since the veneration of the cross (in whatever form it may take; I believe I posted an Indian Orthodox video of their public veneration of the holy cross in the other thread; others are a bit more subdued about it, I guess, in accordance with different ideas about how to properly honor Christ's sacrifice upon it) is one of the very few things that basically all Christians share. I remember also in the other thread I pointed out the Nestorians (Church of the East/Assyrian Church of the East/etc.; they have a lot of names) -- who have been out of communion with wider Christianity since the Council of Ephesus and its aftermath in 431 AD -- maintain perhaps some of the strongest veneration of the cross that you will find anywhere. They cover their churches with it, some say in place of iconography (Assyrian/Nestorian iconography is a thing, but fell into disuse sometime around the Mongol invasions, so all the examples that you see of it are very old).

I can't get the image to insert into the post directly, but if you go to the story at this link to the Yonkers Tribune, you'll see the concelebration of a liturgy by the Nestorians (Church of the East) and the Chaldeans (Church of the East people who joined the Roman Catholic communion in the 16th century) at a church in Baghdad in 2011, with a very nice photo of what a church of this tradition tends to look like.

Note the cross on the pulpit, the crosses on the altar curtain, the crosses in the back behind the deacons and priest, etc. Crosses are everywhere because these people are Christians, despite the fact that they have been communally separated from the rest of Christianity (which accepted the condemnation of Nestorius' person and teachings at Ephesus, while they did not) for 1,588 years. Does having the cross everywhere magically make them Christians, like some sort of talisman? No, obviously not. Would they still be Christians even if they didn't have it everywhere? Yes. But they have it everywhere because they are Christians, which is equal to saying that they embrace its meaning and significance within the context of the Christian faith, like we all do.

And like Mormons don't.

Don't think that those of us who were there have forgotten how in the other thread, when the Mormons were asked where their theology of the cross was and could be found in their churches, you guys couldn't say anything. You don't have such a theology, because you're not Christians. If you were Christians, you would, in some way, shape, or form. Instead you abhor the cross as an instrument of death, as though our Lord's holy body was never upon it, and it was never thus transformed into an instrument of eternal life! It is another example of Mormons living in a pre-incarnational world, which is not acceptable at all in the context of Christianity. Any kind of Christianity.
 
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Not in the sense that the lds try to redefine it. You will never share in God's divine essence, have His ability to create, or be your own god. The clay does not become the potter.
You said: "You will never share in God's divine essence" Really? When did God relinquish His power to you? With God all things are possible.
 
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dzheremi

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With God all things are possible.

Except those things that He specifically said that He will not do, as when He says in Isaiah 42:8 that He will not share His glory with anyone.

I sure Mormons have their own interpretation of that verse which somehow harmonizes it with the Mormon idea that we will become gods, but for the Christian it is a very clear rebuke from God Himself.

And, no, lest any response want to go there, Jesus Christ is not an example of God "sharing His glory" with another, as though Christ is not already possessed of it by nature/essence, being of one divinity with the Father as the incarnation of His Word/Wisdom. The Father is never without His Wisdom, and so when Christ talks about what is given to Him of the Father, it is that which He possesses by virtue of already sharing the same essence/nature. Things like "The glory which You have given Me..." are an affirmation of their shared divinity precisely because God does not share His glory with another -- so Christ is not other than God incarnate; He's not "another god", but the same God, again, by virtue of the co-essential divinity which is possessed of all three Persons of the Trinity, as it is their nature/essence itself. (Read: We do not believe in some sort of adoptionist scheme wherein Christ was a normal man who at one point was elevated to being a god. Christ was, is, and always will be God.)
 
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He is the way

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Except those things that He specifically said that He will not do, as when He says in Isaiah 42:8 that He will not share His glory with anyone.

I sure Mormons have their own interpretation of that verse which somehow harmonizes it with the Mormon idea that we will become gods, but for the Christian it is a very clear rebuke from God Himself.

And, no, lest any response want to go there, Jesus Christ is not an example of God "sharing His glory" with another, as though Christ is not already possessed of it by nature/essence, being of one divinity with the Father as the incarnation of His Word/Wisdom. The Father is never without His Wisdom, and so when Christ talks about what is given to Him of the Father, it is that which He possesses by virtue of already sharing the same essence/nature. Things like "The glory which You have given Me..." are an affirmation of their shared divinity precisely because God does not share His glory with another -- so Christ is not other than God incarnate; He's not "another god", but the same God, again, by virtue of the co-essential divinity which is possessed of all three Persons of the Trinity, as it is their nature/essence itself. (Read: We do not believe in some sort of adoptionist scheme wherein Christ was a normal man who at one point was elevated to being a god. Christ was, is, and always will be God.)
God did not use the word share in Isaiah 42:8. Besides Christ made it clear that He does give glory to them who believe in Him.
 
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dzheremi

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Some translations (like the NKJV, the one I tend to default to as it is what is used in my Church) use "share", while others (KJV) use "give". Either way, the point of my post remains the same, so what are you getting at?
 
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BigDaddy4

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God did not use the word share in Isaiah 42:8. Besides Christ made it clear that He does give glory to them who believe in Him.
Your quote of Isaiah 42:8 actually refutes your point. More word search posting??
 
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Some translations (like the NKJV, the one I tend to default to as it is what is used in my Church) use "share", while others (KJV) use "give". Either way, the point of my post remains the same, so what are you getting at?
Give and share mean different things for instance children can share a toy without giving it away. Satan did not want to share the glory, he wanted it all. That is why he got kicked out. God will not give away all of His glory, but Jesus is willing to share His glory.
 
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dzheremi

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Give and share mean different things for instance children can share a toy without giving it away. Satan did not want to share the glory, he wanted it all.

I know that give and share don't mean the same thing. Exchanging one for the other in my previous post wouldn't change the meaning whatsoever, or the reasoning behind it. Quit being pedantic. This diversion doesn't respond to the post at all.
 
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He is the way

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I know that give and share don't mean the same thing. Exchanging one for the other in my previous post wouldn't change the meaning whatsoever, or the reasoning behind it. Quit being pedantic. This diversion doesn't respond to the post at all.
I have my reasons for believing what I believe and you have your reasons for believing what you believe. That being said we do have many common beliefs. I believe that the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep the commandments.
 
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Ironhold

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Hold on now. I was deeply involved with the last conversation on this topic,

Doing this for 20 years now.

I've literally heard, during that time, a rather incredible number of people make that actual argument.

Does having the cross everywhere magically make them Christians, like some sort of talisman?

Edit #2 ->

Where I live, one can readily find crosses, votive candles with images of Roman Catholic saints on them, "Jesus loves you" knick-knacks, and the like, even at secular retail chain stores.

We even had an "everything's $1 and up" store that had an entire wall of trinkets and knick-knacks with the word "Jesus" on them, accompanied by an image or some sort of catch phrase, as if somehow that makes a Frisbee religious in nature.

I think it was 15 years ago that the local Family Christian bookstore had a "Victory in Jesus" toy monster truck for sale, with a red plastic body, gold chrome for the metallic bits, and the words "Victory In Jesus" on the hood.

That's how common symbols are where I live... and how questionable some of the applications are.

Speaking personally, this has made me want to see the people themselves, to know the people who call upon Christ's name, and to see what they as individuals actually believe.

Don't think that those of us who were there have forgotten how in the other thread, when the Mormons were asked where their theology of the cross was and could be found in their churches, you guys couldn't say anything.

I remember explaining that the symbology used is... that of the empty tomb, such that most meetinghouses have an open, hollow area behind the pulpit meant to represent that.
 
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dzheremi

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Doing this for 20 years now.

REALLY? This is the first time I've ever heard that!

I've literally heard, during that time, a rather incredible number of people make that actual argument.

Shocking. What else have you experienced during your many, many, many years on the internet? People being mean?

Where I live, one can readily find crosses, votive candles with images of Roman Catholic saints on them, "Jesus loves you" knick-knacks, and the like, even at secular retail chain stores.

So what? Where I live (in northern California; not the southwest or south Texas or whatever), the grocery store I shop at has an entire isle where one side is entirely devoted to votive candles. It literally says on the sign above the isle "Hispanic foods/Candles". Is this supposed to prove something about something? Mexicans love those candles, therefore...something.

We even had an "everything's $1 and up" store that had an entire wall of trinkets and knick-knacks with the word "Jesus" on them, accompanied by an image or some sort of catch phrase, as if somehow that makes a Frisbee religious in nature.

So basically, the long and short of it is...you went to a dollar store once? I'm sorry, this is another one where I have to wonder what the point is. I've never been in one of those kinds of stores anywhere (and I've been to I think every contiguous US state except for a few in New England and Florida) that didn't have some chintzy religious objects in it. How else is everyone's grandmother supposed to fill up all the space in their house?

I think it was 15 years ago that the local Family Christian bookstore had a "Victory in Jesus" toy monster truck for sale, with a red plastic body, gold chrome for the metallic bits, and the words "Victory In Jesus" on the hood.

Wow. Take that, Truckosaurus. That's awesome. I hope you bought one.

That's how common symbols are where I live... and how questionable some of the applications are.

It sounds like you have a problem with religion in commerce. I don't know anyone who doesn't, so again, I don't know what you're meaning to prove by any of these examples. To imply that this says something about the Christian veneration of the cross or its use as a Christian symbol (if this is what you mean to imply) really makes no sense. Do Mormon religious items being for sale across the world say anything untoward about Mormonism? You can buy a "Proud to be Mormon" mousepad on Amazon.com right now for $11.99. Guess you better get your religion in order, then (?)...or start making mousepads... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh, and hey, wasn't there that time when the early Mormons were told, after Joseph Smith asked the Lord about it, that they should try to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada? What was that all about? Does it somehow make it better or substantially different than your examples that they didn't try to do it in the 19th century Canadian version of a dollar store? (Maybe they should have, since the attempt that was made ultimately failed.)

Speaking personally, this has made me want to see the people themselves, to know the people who call upon Christ's name, and to see what they as individuals actually believe.

That's a good instinct.

I remember explaining that the symbology used is... that of the empty tomb, such that most meetinghouses have an open, hollow area behind the pulpit meant to represent that.

Yeah, I've heard that, too. Maybe on here. Maybe from you. I honestly don't remember. That's a fine Christian symbol. You can find it in some of the rock-hewn scenes at the monastic complex of St. Simon the Tanner in Egypt (below).

simonthetanner.jpg


And if you ever have the blessing to go to the Holy Land and visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, you will find many Christian people there venerating that very place. The important point to make in this, however, is that the empty tomb is a symbol because of the earlier victory over death on the cross. It is proof that this victory has indeed happened (as was the initial appearance to Mary Magdalene, Christ's wounds to St. Thomas, etc.), but that victory was still accomplished by His willing death upon the cross. This is why Christians don't exchange one symbol for the other, as Mormons have.

It's okay to have more than one symbol (assuming the theology behind them is sound, of course; this is why even Protestants who hold to the "four bare walls and a sermon" very low-church style of Protestantism will still have problems with Mormonism), but the point when we're talking about Christian symbology is that basically everyone who is Christian will at least affirm the cross as the preeminent symbol of the Christian faith (if not always openly display it themselves; I don't own any wearable cross items, though do own several crosses for use in private or corporate prayer). There are plenty of others, but as I've explained in the past, a lot of them don't necessarily work cross-linguistically/cross-culturally, because they rely on the viewer's knowledge of Greek, Syriac, Coptic, etc. (things like the Ichthys, the Chi Rho, etc.), whereas the cross is understood by everyone for what it represents according to Christian theology (eternal life in Christ via His defeat of death upon it).
 
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