Doing good

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

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I think good deeds are indicative, traits of those whom God saves. If they are the means of salvation, they are a form of hypocrisy (acting).

It seems obvious that what people do separates them into two camps. I read that it says "do good vs do evil". Not good deeds or evil deeds. So good and evil doings must be defined first. Doing good must be what allows your inclusion into God's kingdom and doing evil insures your exclusion. Now what are they.

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

Click to expand...

Reminds me of that passage at the end of revelation.

It says to just let everyone be whether they be holy, righteous, unrighteous, or filthy, since they'll be awarded according to their works.

Hard to say what a second century text is saying, you can go with "it says what it says" which violates the whole fabric of the rest of the new testament teachings, you can make up another answer to support your theology, or you can live in the question it presents since a valid answer is not available.

My general answer is to live in the question. Though indicative is a close second since we're saved for good works. In the sense God calls us in faith, He too has faith in us.

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

Click to expand...

Various other passages show deeds matter: Sheep and Goats - Matthew 25:31-46
Even at a more basic level: Forgiveness Matthew 6:14:15

The distinction is the need to cooperate with grace. We have a choice.
The difference between "intellectual assent": even devils believe in jesus and "formed faith" which has charity. No amount of good deeds are enough to save . So this is not "salvation by works" . Such deeds are essential, but not sufficient.

This is one of the problems I had with Lutheranism at one stage in my Journey - the idea that Christs passion sufficed to save us, no matter what we then do. I think stated by luther that he could commit adultery 100 times and would not lose his salvation: the concept of "snow colourded dung hill". That belief seemed to contravene both your scripture, the ones I mentioned and many others.

But I think we must cooperate with grace, but are then only saved by grace through faith. No amount of such deeds are sufficent by themselves. So faith must be more than just "intellectual assent" it needs to be formed faith, that is with charity.

Nor do I think we are automatons. By virtue of faith we do not automatically do those things that are needed for salvation, we still have free will every day. We can do the work of "sheep and goats" or not.

One interesting test of a persons belief. Is to consider what happens at judgement. (if you are not shaking like a jelly unable to speak at that point!!) - Can you imagine our Lord saying "but I told you I was hungry and you did not feed me (and reminding of 100 other scriptures) and our trying to sayto our Lord "but I didnt think those things mattered because I can do nothing and just rely on your mercy". The answer "more fool you" springs to mind!

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

Click to expand...

So the word "deeds" isn't in the Greek. It might be in some minority Greek manuscript somewhere, but the received texts and the Aramaic do not have "deeds." It is just saying, "those who have done good (or well)." If we believe, and walk in faith (hearing God and acting on what we heard) and our heart is aimed at Him and not the world... we have done good. I think it is likely that simple.

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

Click to expand...

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means of obtaining eternal life, but is indicative of those who will receive eternal life. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Good deeds flow inescapably from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, just as we see in Romans 2:6-10. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture (those who did good deeds/those who committed evil deeds) with prescriptive passages of scripture (John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..).

We see the same thing in Romans chapter 2 and if one reads verse 6 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. This is descriptive of unbelievers. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. A tree is known by it's fruit. These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

I think it's the latter. Resurrected saints don't even remember their good deeds (Matthew 25:37-40) as they do it voluntarily (out of love). To be sure, we're called to good deeds (James 2:26). But those deeds should flow from the indwelling Holy Spirit and in love and not out of obligation (2 Corinthians 9:7).

Hammster said:

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
— John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that good deeds are necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good deeds (indicative)?

Click to expand...

I don’t think it means good deeds are the key. Righteousness is and if person is righteous, he also has righteous actions. And it is like in the parable, of good and bad tree. If tree is good, it produces good fruit and it is saved.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

Actions don’t save, but they tell who is righteous and who is not.

Either way you look at it the use of 'did' expresses that something was done to deserve either place. Some would call this a 'work'.

I just read this and went further back in the chapter. In verse 19 the heading in my Bible says ''The authority of the son'' and it runs all the way through to verse 30. My point being I think this might be a statement of Christs authority and not Primarily about our salvation, as highlighted in verse 27 ''And he has given him authority to execute judgement,because he is the son of man''

Thoughts on that theory?

Hammster said:

I edited the OP to reflect a better translation.

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Why would you consider early 17th century usage to be a more precise form of English? Would a judge say, while sentencing, "Because you did evil, when you held up the gas station, you are sentenced to 5 years in prison"?

King James Bible
John 5
28And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

King James Bible
2 Kings 8
27And he walked in the way of the house of Ahab, and did evil in the sight of the LORD, as did the house of Ahab: for he was the son in law of the house of Ahab.

Hammster said:

I guess you can start your own thread about that.

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Would it make you correct your evil here?

Hammster said:

Good point.

Haven’t we all done evil?

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New Perspectives on Paul

Quote
Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

Hammster said:

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - John 5:28-29

For discussion.

Is Jesus stating that doing good is necessary for resurrection to life (imperative); or is He saying that those who are resurrected to life did good (indicative)?

**edited to reflect a better translation

Click to expand...

I believe it is talking about believing in Christ and trusting his death as atonement for your sins. I do like @1213 's post and normally would think scripture was referring to that, however these verses in themselves seem to just be referring to whether one accepts Christ.

I'm reminded of these verses,
John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And,
1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Here the primary work of God is to believe in his Son. This is not works of course in the sense of good deeds/obedience to the Law, but faith. This is doing good, because it is the primary good, and like @1213 said from thenceforth the tree is good and will bring forth good fruit.

Doing evil of course would be rejecting the Son.

I suppose it also helps to know my position is that of not a Calvinist one, nor Arminian, but I believe in free will and the ability to choose salvation, and that once you have made that choice you have made an eternal one (and thus God's love will always be with you, and you will never lose salvation). An eternal covenant with God, with both parties involved. So I see it as that the main choice of good is accepting Christ, and the main evil one is a permanent rejection by someone. I'm unsure if a Calvinist could agree with my interpretation of these verses in John or not while disregarding the free will aspect I hold to.