BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

BrotherD said:

Hello LGW.

Question, could somebody have his Holy Spirit and still blaspheme it? Also what is blaspheme of his Holy Spirit, and what makes it unpardonable?

I know the example in Mark 3:22-30 about blaspheme of the Spirit, are there any more?

God Bless and Thank You.

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Hi BrotherD,

I know the question was meant for LovesGodsWord, but since I am now reading it, I desire to respond...

I have thought about this very question over the years. I think that anytime we misrepresent the Gospel into something that causes people not to take responsibility for their faith before God, to reverently walk by God's Spirit in us, is a terrible sin because such teachings, in effect, promote a disregard for the Spirit and a license to sin.

Galatians 5:16 (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

The Gospel of Christ commands us to faithfully walk in the Spirit in all holiness before God - this is the New Life.

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "blaspheme" means to speak in a way that shows irreverence for God or something sacred.

Obviously then, such irreverence for the Spirit and for Christ's sacrifice that we see so often promoted by those who think living a holy life before God is works, creates a license to sin without consequences. This was spiting the Spirit of Grace.

Irreverence for the Atonement

For instance, God set up sacrifices in the OT to atone for sins. However, many of the Jews were using the atonement irreverently by thinking they can sin and be covered the next time they made an animal sacrifice. Such irreverent behavior regarding the atonement was a stench to God's nostrils. We see today this same irreverent behavior for the atonement by the blood of Jesus on the part of those who hold to a Calvinistic view.

Therefore, many people who follow such a belief that a person is not responsible to live holy lives before God are turning Christ's atoning sacrifice for them into an unholy thing, and denying the Spirit's power to turn people from sin through faithfully walking by the Spirit of God living in them. This is the New Life Christ purchase for us by His own blood.

Such persons who act this way regarding Christ's sacrifice for them, are insulting the Spirit of Grace indwelling them. How? Such persons deny the Spirit's power to free believers from sin so that they may live a New Life by reverently walking by the Spirit of God - dead to sin and alive in Christ. ... That is the salvation of the Gospel.

Therefore, such blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by those who possess the Spirit incurs greater judgment and more severe punishment by God then those who are unbelievers.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (WEB)
26 For if WE sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . .
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[e]

38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

So, not only do such people insult the Spirit by teaching that God is responsible for your faithfulness, but such persons are teaching this false doctrine to others who are seeking God. Such little ones in the faith are, therefore, prevented from receiving salvation - the New Life - by such doctrines.

Luke 17:1-4 (NIV)
17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

So how will those who hold to a Calvinist doctrine ever escape the judgment of God? The only way I can see anyone escaping is either to repent of such false doctrine, or to ignorantly remain Calvinist but, in their hearts, are actually following God correctly by faithfully and reverently walking by God's Spirit to the very end of their lives.

Yes, God gives the believer His Spirit to dwell in them. But do not forget that when the Spirit of God dwells in you, God Himself is dwelling in you.

• So, when you grieve and insult the Spirit of Grace,
• you are grieving and insulting God.

You insult God when you think you can sin, and then claim forgiveness, as if living sanctified holy lives onto God were optional.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.

• 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
• whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
• 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time WE will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James is warning the beloved brothers to

• endure temptation to receive LIFE,
• not to be deceived - that if they let any sin control them they will die.

Same instruction as Paul gave in Romans 8:12-13 and Galatians 6:7-9

The only acceptable worship for those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,

• to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
• holy and pleasing to God—
• this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

When believers receive the Spirit by a repentant faith, then such are obligated to walk by the Spirit to receive life...

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 6:19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6... Therefore,
• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we MUST live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6... in like manner,
• if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4

To live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . . .

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

This is the New Life in Christ... This is Salvation in Christ.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello brother nolidad, nice to see you again .

Sorry brother with all love and respect and I say this to you as a brother with all sincereity, your only repeating yourself again. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. This has already been addressed over a few pages already and most recently in detail in post # 102 linked showing the within scripture context linking in with the very words of JESUS in JOHN 8:31-36 on the conditions of being a disciple *(v31 CONTINUING IN HIS WORD). Those who went out from the BELIEVERS did not CONTINUE with us (IN HIS WORD).

I have added nothing to the scriptures except read them as they are. Your reading the scriptures through a belief system that says that someone who is a believer can never fall away to become an unbeliever. God's Word does not say anywhere that a believer stays a believer forever unconditionally and cannot fall away to become an unbeliever.

God's WORD says from GENESIS to REVELATIONS all through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures that BELIEVERS can fall away to become UNBELIEVERS. We are warned about this all through God's WORD. There is a reason for these warnings. To reject these warnings brother is to do so at our own peril.

Thanks for sharing though brother nolidad

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LoveGodsWord said:

Hello brother nolidad, nice to see you again .

Sorry brother with all love and respect and I say this to you as a brother with all sincereity, your only repeating yourself again. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. This has already been addressed over a few pages already and most recently in detail in post # 102 linked showing the within scripture context linking in with the very words of JESUS in JOHN 8:31-36 on the conditions of being a disciple *(v31 CONTINUING IN HIS WORD). Those who went out from the BELIEVERS did not CONTINUE with us (IN HIS WORD).

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Hi LGW:

Yes I am repeating myself.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They were not of us- is akin to saying they never were believers. NOT OF US means they were not family!

Remember the parables of the wheat and tares and the sower of seed!

and now you are equating being a believer with being a disciple! someone can be a believer without being a disciple, but someone cannot be a disciple without being a believer.

In all humility I feel compeeld to exhort you:

1.You do not know the depth of what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
2. You have publicly declared that Jesus has not died for all the sins of a person by your postings one can lose their salvation.
3. No matter how you wish to rephrase it- you are promoting of gospel of grace and works! Jesus got you in- but you have to maintain your salvation be keeping up good deeds. Remember in the kingdom, there are only acts of obedience or disobedience, there is no middle ground.
4. Jesus does not give eternal life by our doctrine, but a probational eternal life, which can be revoked if a person doesn't measure up!
5. You reject Romans 10:9,13. John 10:28-29, You believe a persons sins are greater than the blood our Savior shed.
6. You reject romans 8:28-39, Romans 5: 8-11, Heb. 13:5

Please do not say you believe these verses! for you really don't because you have to add your BUT!

Jesus said He will never leave us or forsake us! One cannot leave Jesus! He won't leave us!
You clearly do not understand the differences between our position in Christ and our daily experience.
You conflate things that affect our fellowhip with god and seek to say they can destroy our relationship with God. Our fellowship can be broken, but our relationship can never. He can never unborn us and throw is back to the kingdom of darkness that He translated once for all time out of !

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs102m.pdf
http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs110m.pdf
http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs103m.pdf
http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs105m.pdf

I plead with you to read these studies (they are free to download and copy and even distribute.)
The go into greater depth than I could on these pages.

Think for a moment! In Romans 5 Paul goes into great detail in saying how Jesus through the Spirit while we are His avowed enemies! You have been taught that once he chases us and woos us and shows the depth of His love for us while we are sinners- He will revoke it for not living up to some standard. even if we fall into unbelief:
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. and no in the prior verse, denying Him is not the same as believing not!

LGW: I fear you have been a victim as Paul said in Galatinas 1 and wish to see you fully understand the depth of Gods love for you! It is fully unconditional both before and after salvation. and of course that is never a license to sin, but a cause to rejoice and fall in love more with the one who paid the ultimate price to buy and own us eternally.

Sin is not the issue. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, past present and future.
When a person is lost forever in the lake of fire- it is not because they sinned- it is because they did not trust in Christ! Because they reject the only payment Our Father accepts for sin- they are required to pay the other price- an eternity in torment separated from God!

setst777 said:

When believers receive the Spirit by a repentant faith, then such are obligated to walk by the Spirit to receive life...

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 6:19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6... Therefore,
• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we MUST live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6... in like manner,
• if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4

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Hello Brother setst777,

Thank you for taking your time out to respond to my questions. I will take the time to go back over all you wrote to let it sink in, but the long section of bullet points it what stood out.

setst777 said:

The only acceptable worship for those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,

• to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
• holy and pleasing to God—
• this is your true and proper worship.

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This is what is needed to be done daily as well, be holy and pleasing to God. I often come across people who say one can't quit sin or be holy, but Jesus wouldn't tell us to do something that was impossible.
1 Peter 1:16 KJV — Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Once again i will glean over your reply and hold on to God's Word that you have shared. Thanks my brother.

God Bless, In Christ

Hello my Brother LGW,

Thank you for responding to my questions. One of the things that stood out to me was when you said:

LoveGodsWord said:

The role of the Holy Spirit as shown above in *JOHN 16:8 is to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of the judgment to come. The unpardonable sin is rejecting God's WORD and God's Spirit and thinking and believing it is not of God and of the devil which leads all those who reject God's Word to UNBELIEF and becoming "UBELIEVERS". Whatsoever is not of faith in sin *ROMANS 14:23 and the wages of SIN is death in all those who reject the gift (the Word) of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

If we reject God's WORD through UNBELIEF and resist God's Spirit then JESUS will always be on the outside of the door of our heart, knocking on it, until we open the door to BELIEVING and FOLLOWING His WORD. We need to open this door by BELIEVING his WORD so that we can invite JESUS in to save us from our sins *REVELATION 3:20.

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Thanks be to God i am understanding more and more. It is almost like a fog is lifting because i desperately want to know God's Word and i want to abide in Christ at all times. I see that unbelief is the way to grieving the Holy Spirit. Faith is really the key to it all. I can say of a truth i shouldn't be in the position to get to know the Lord again at all.

Quick testimony: I was once lost and did not care to know the Lord at all, i believed there was a God, but i didnt know him. I had a very traumatic experience happen in my early twenties and only by his grace i wanted to find comfort, and i found it in him, by reading the Bible. I don't know what made me do it but i did. I started reading heavily and changing things in my life, i repented of all the evil i did, and i started speaking his truth (God's Word) to people i thought were brethren. I was met with anger and finger pointing in my face, saying that i was young and didnt know much. I truly believed that what i read in the scriptures was true, and what he said is what he meant. I was starting to love again and genuinely care about my fellow man. I didn't endure and as i look back i think of the parable of the seeds, and i was the one who let the cares of the world choke the Word out from me. I remeber when i didn't resist a particular sin and i also remember this feeling i got that was trying to get me to not do it. I believe that day i grieved the Holy Spirit and the more i committed that sin, eventually the feeling of correction left.

His word is true when he says in
Matthew 12:43-45
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

I am proof because i sinned way worse after i came into the knowledge of the truth. I didn't know much but i knew enough. I now know he gave me over to a reprobate mind Romans 1:28. Fast forward to last year and by his many mercies and lovingkindness Psalm 103:4 he woke me up again. All it took was for me to open the Bible. I was convicted. I knew i had messed up and worse this time, way worse, but for some reason he decided to give me another chance. I know i don't deserve it, he took my dads life at the age of 26 because of his sins, and i know i have done way worse then him. I don't understand why he would let someone like me live but then this stood out to me:

Romans 9:15-18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto the Pharaoh, even for this same purpose I raised thee up, that i might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therfore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

That right there said it all.

I know for a fact one can grieve his Spirit even if i didn't know i had it. I almost didn't want to hear the truth either because i loved my sins too much, but Jesus said in:

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

I know i am his and he is mines because he found me again when i was lost. I owe him my life and i now dedicate it to Christ Jesus. I have that feeling i can't explain before i lost it. I ask him to teach me his truth and show me how to worship him. I am proof of one grieving his Spirit, but i am also proof that he is a forgiving God as long as you truly give him your everything.

I thank God for answering some of my prayers through your posts. Most importantly i thank God for his Word (Son).

God Bless, In Christ

LoveGodsWord said:

Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. We reject the warnings given to us from God's Word at our own peril. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

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LoveGodsWord said:

We reject the warnings given to us from God's Word at our own peril. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

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Well at last we agree on something!

It is just sad that is two opposing views on the work that Jesus accomplished at the cross for the elect that He knew from before the foundation of the World.

I work not to maintain salvation, but because I am saved!

I avoid sin, not because I fear losing my salvation, but because His love has given me ETERNAL not probationary eternal life.

Please read those manuscripts I listed.

nolidad said:

,,,,

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Hi nolidad,

You write:
<<
I work not to maintain salvation, but because I am saved!
>>

Setst RE: When you write things like this, I get the impression you are tricking yourself.

No one is claiming works to be saved. That would be foolish. However, God does require us to put our faith in His Son to be saved according to the Gospel. And faith is not a work.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

A genuine Gospel faith cannot be divorced from repentance from the old life of sin, and then listening and following Jesus to receive eternal life. That is what faith is.

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB)
20 …I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Therefore, the Gospel that saves us teaches a faith by which we are to be disciples of Jesus to be saved.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

Luke 14:27-35
27 Whoever does not bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Salvation is conditioned upon a repentant faith in Jesus and remaining faithful to the end – according to the Gospel.

Revelation 3:3 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.

This repentance is YOUR responsibility…

Revelation 3:19-22 (WEB)
19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

nolidad - You write:
<<
I avoid sin, not because I fear losing my salvation, but because His love has given me ETERNAL not probationary eternal life.
>>

setst RE: Nice thoughts, nolidad. But is that what the Gospel teaches us?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV)
27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30).

Speaking to those already saved, who already have the Spirit of Christ, Paul teaches as follows:

Romans 8 Bolding mine
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Repentance and Faith is OUR responsibility and condition to be saved…

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by a repentant faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Nolidad, please review the following Scriptures, and tell me how these Scriptures explain your faith…

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Revelation 3:11 (NIV) Bolding mine… 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-35 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James is warning the beloved brothers to

• endure temptation to receive LIFE,
• not to be deceived - that if they let any sin control them they will die.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

Ephesians 5 (NIV)
5 1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among YOU there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this YOU can be sure:

• No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• 6 Let no one deceive YOU with empty words,
• for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
• 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

1 Corinthians 6:7-10 (NIV)
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already.
Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 3:26 World English Bible (WEB)
26 God, having raised up his servant Jesus, sent him to you first to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your wickedness.”

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.”

YOU are responsible to:

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

God delights in our obedient faith and required this faith of you to be saved, We only receive the Holy Spirit, and are saved, by an obedient faith.

• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we will live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6
• in like manner, if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4

The Scripture instruction makes clear that the responsibility is on the born again Christian to live by the Spirit, not that the Spirit does the work for you:

Your faith must lead to obedience...

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

How do you explain your faith in light of these Passages?

setst777 said:

Setst RE: When you write things like this, I get the impression you are tricking yourself.

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You may think that but it is the biblical view!

Philippians says work out what god works in, ephesians says I was saved for good works that God foreordained I should walk in!

setst777 said:

A genuine Gospel faith cannot be divorced from repentance from the old life of sin, and then listening and following Jesus to receive eternal life. That is what faith is.

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I agree totally! but some here have promoted sinless perfection afterwards or one is loist. And another on this thread if one should suffer a season of backsliding -God revokes their salvation- that is grossly unbiblical!

setst777 said:

21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

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Now tell me what you believe repentance means!

setst777 said:

Therefore, the Gospel that saves us teaches a faith by which we are to be disciples of Jesus to be saved.

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That is incorrect.

Being a child of God is one thing- being a disciple is another. You cannot equate the two. Should all be disciples? Yes! Are all Saved people disciples? No!

setst777 said:

Revelation 3:11 (NIV) Bolding mine… 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

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thisisn't salvation- but rewards! there are up to seven crowns and 1 wardrobe believers earn by obedience! But even if they earn none they are still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If a man's good works are all wood hay and stubble- he is still saved!!!

setst777 said:

James is warning the beloved brothers to

• endure temptation to receive LIFE,

Click to expand...

Sorry but that is a slight but erroneous manipulation of Scripture! The believer does not recieve life- he receives a crown of life! those are different. We are given life the moment we believed!

setst777 said:

No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Click to expand...

And I agree. But I know that what is written is not someone who may stumble or fail, but one who has a lifestyle and is unrepentant.

Remember no matter how many times a person stumbles, if they acknowledge it before God, they are forgiven experientially. They were already forgiven judicially. they obtained that forgiven the moment they were born again.

The big error here is that you confuse a believers position in Christ with their experience.

We are already heirs, already seated in heavenly places, already perfect, already justified and glorified, we are the elect before the foundation of the world, our life is hidden with Christ in God. We are kept by the power of God. We are sealed until the day of redemption by the Spirit. we already have eternal life. No man (including yourself) can pluck you out of Jesus or the Fathers hands! Nothing can spearate you from the love of God! NOTHING!

Now I am really going to sound blasphemous to some here. But for the believer there is no more sin!!!!

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So what happens when a believer sins or even backslides for a season?
He will recieve the wages of those sins! Not from God but from the consequences of the sin!

He can even be taken home early because of sin (sin unto death)

YOu try to equate us experiencing the consequences of sin in this life with losing salvation and the bible does not allow that!

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved in verse 8 is in the perfect passive participle!
To fully correctly render this in English it would be read like this:

For by grace you were once for all saved in teh past, are continuing to be saved now and will be saved in the future!

Because verse 9 is directly linked as a negative of verse 8, it should read in English like this:

You are not saved by any works in the past, you are not being saved by any works no, and you will not be saved by any works in the future! that verse when I learned it- was liberating! It took my eyes off my condition, and I was better able to

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

To say one can lose their salvation is to declare the following:

Jesus death was not enough!
Jesus blood did not erase all sin.
Jesus did not forgive all sin in a person life who turned to Him in Faith.
Jesus cannot save to the uttermost.
Jesus can lose those who were given to Him by the Father.
Sin is greater than the love of God
Sin is greater than the will of God!

Do you really want to declare those things?

nolidad said:

You may think that but it is the biblical view!

Click to expand...

Hi nolidad,

setst777 said: ↑
When you write things like this, I get the impression you are tricking yourself.

nolidad responds:
<<
You may think that but it is the biblical view!
>>

setst RE: Yes, that is the Biblical view. I quoted the Bible to show you the view the Bible gives.

nolidad writes:
<<
Philippians says work out what god works in, ephesians says I was saved for good works that God foreordained I should walk in!
>>

Setst RE:
God works in us His will by His Spirit. Do you agree?

We are obligated to walk by His Spirit for God’s will to be done within us. Would you agree?

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also keep in step with the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So if God foreordained that you should walk in His ways, then you had better walk by the Spirit IN YOU to receive life.

setst777 said: ↑
A genuine Gospel faith cannot be divorced from repentance from the old life of sin, and then listening and following Jesus to receive eternal life. That is what faith is.

nolidad Responds: I agree totally! but some here have promoted sinless perfection afterwards or one is loist. And another on this thread if one should suffer a season of backsliding -God revokes their salvation- that is grossly unbiblical!


Setst RE: You agree totally that repentance is necessary. No one claims total perfection that I am aware of. We must press on to perfection and a holy before God; however, if we should sin while we live holy lives before Him, then God is merciful to forgive.

Philippians 3:12-15 (WEB)
12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brothers, I don’t regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way. If in anything you think otherwise, God will also reveal that to you.

Nolidad wrote:
<<
Now tell me what you believe repentance means!
>>

Setst RE: G3567 μετάνοια metanoia, n. [22] [√ 3552 + 3808]. change of mind, repentance, the state of changing any or all of the elements composing one’s life: attitude, thoughts, and behaviors concerning the demands of God for right living; note that this state can refer to the foundational salvation event in Christ, or to on-going repentance in the Christian life:– repentance (19), change (1 [+5536, 2351]), repent (1), turn in repentance (1)

Acts 26:19-20 (WEB)
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

setst777 said: ↑
Therefore, the Gospel that saves us teaches a faith by which we are to be disciples of Jesus to be saved.

Nolidad Responds:
<<
That is incorrect.

Being a child of God is one thing- being a disciple is another. You cannot equate the two. Should all be disciples? Yes! Are all Saved people disciples? No!
>>

Setst RE: You cannot equate the two??? Well then, you have just shown that you are not saved. The Great Commission that Christ commanded to be preached to EVERY CREATURE is that we are to make disciples of all nations…


Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

You are not saved unless you are a disciple of Jesus – to listen to and follow Jesus:

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

1 John 2:4 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Therefore, you are not a child of God unless you are a disciple of Jesus. That is the faith of Scripture.


setst777 said: ↑
Revelation 3:11 (NIV) Bolding mine… 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Nolidad Replies:
<<
this isn't salvation- but rewards!
>>

Setst RE: The entire 2nd and 3rd chapter of Revelation deals with salvation and warnings by Jesus of the possibility of losing salvation. Nothing to do with rewards but rather warning about sin and losing salvation if they do not repent.

Nolidad quote and replies as follows:
<<
1 Corinthians 3:11- If a man's good works are all wood hay and stubble- he is still saved!!!

Setst RE: 1 Corinthians 3:11 deals with the works Christians do and their significance in their walk with Christ and their teaching to others. This has nothing to do with sin or salvation, and so has no relevance to the discussion.

setst777 said: ↑
James is warning the beloved brothers to

• endure temptation to receive LIFE,

nolidad RE: Sorry but that is a slight but erroneous manipulation of Scripture! The believer does not recieve life- he receives a crown of life! those are different. We are given life the moment we believed!

Setst RE: Did you read the whole Passage I quoted?

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him. . .
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

In context, the crown of life is another way of saying: eternal life.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Considering the context: what else do you think James was referring to by the crown of life?

Have you been deceived, nolidad???

setst777 said: ↑
No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Nolidad RE: And I agree. But I know that what is written is not someone who may stumble or fail, but one who has a lifestyle and is unrepentant.

Setst RE: Paul wrote this to the Church, the believers, as a warning.

Ephesians 5:3-7
5 But among YOU there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this YOU can be sure:

• No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• 6 Let no one deceive YOU with empty words,
• for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
• 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

nolidad writes:
<<
Remember no matter how many times a person stumbles, if they acknowledge it before God, they are forgiven experientially. They were already forgiven judicially. they obtained that forgiven the moment they were born again.

The big error here is that you confuse a believers position in Christ with their experience.
>>


Setst RE: Nice thoughts. Not in God’s word. We are only forgiven sins if we are already living holy lives onto God. You want to make forgiveness a license for immorality, thus making Christ’s atonement an unholy thing while you insult the Spirit of grace.

Jude 4 (NIV)
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Nolidad continues:
<<
We are already heirs, already seated in heavenly places, already perfect, already justified and glorified, we are the elect before the foundation of the world, our life is hidden with Christ in God. We are kept by the power of God. We are sealed until the day of redemption by the Spirit. we already have eternal life. No man (including yourself) can pluck you out of Jesus or the Fathers hands! Nothing can spearate you from the love of God! NOTHING!
>>

Setst RE: Nice thoughts that are from hell. We are only kept by the power of God through faith:

By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

nolidad writes:
<<
Now I am really going to sound blasphemous to some here. But for the believer there is no more sin!!!!

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
>>

Setst RE: “To every one that believeth.” "Believeth" is a continuous state. Believing includes repentance – which you “totally” agree with. If your faith continues, then you remain in Christ and declared righteous.

Yes, you definitely sound blasphemous.

Nolidad writes:
<<
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
>>

Setst RE: Unrelated Passage. We are not under the Law but under grace through faith.

nolidad writes:
<<
You try to equate us experiencing the consequences of sin in this life with losing salvation and the bible does not allow that!
>>

Setst RE:
1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB)
27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 6:7-10 (NIV)
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already.
Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived...

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.”

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30).

YOU are responsible to:
• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness resulting in Eternal Life: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, IF WE hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

nolidad said:

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

To say one can lose their salvation is to declare the following:

Jesus death was not enough!
Jesus blood did not erase all sin.
Jesus did not forgive all sin in a person life who turned to Him in Faith.
Jesus cannot save to the uttermost.
Jesus can lose those who were given to Him by the Father.
Sin is greater than the love of God
Sin is greater than the will of God!

Do you really want to declare those things?

Click to expand...

Hi nolidad,

nolidad writes:
<<
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ...

You are not saved by any works in the past, you are not being saved by any works no, and you will not be saved by any works in the future! that verse when I learned it- was liberating! It took my eyes off my condition, and I was better able to

Setst RE: Who said anything about being saved by works????

nolidad writes:
<<
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
>>

Setst RE: In Hebrews 12:2, "our" faith is not in the Scripture.

The Passage states that Jesus is the “Author” or “Pioneer” of Faith. This is HIS faith – the faith we are to emulate. This is not referring to our feeble faith. We are to follow Jesus supreme example of faith to be saved, which is to deny self, as Jesus did, and take up our cross, as Jesus did, and follow Him to be saved. As we follow Christ in this way, walking by His Spirit – as Scripture teaches – Christ becomes the Pioneer and Finisher of our faith.

Revelation 3:19-22 (WEB)
19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, just as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

• Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him: Heb 5:8
• Those who love Jesus will keep His commands, and the Father and Son will love that person and make their home with them Jn 14:21
• Jesus commands us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him to be saved: Lk 9:23; Lk 14:17; Mtt 10:38
• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we will live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6
• in like manner, if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4
• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” 2 Tim 2:19

nolidad writes:
>>
To say one can lose their salvation is to declare the following:

Jesus death was not enough!
Jesus blood did not erase all sin.
Jesus did not forgive all sin in a person life who turned to Him in Faith.
Jesus cannot save to the uttermost.
Jesus can lose those who were given to Him by the Father.
Sin is greater than the love of God
Sin is greater than the will of God!

Do you really want to declare those things?
>>

Setst RE: Nice thoughts that will condemn anyone who believes it. Not in God’s Word. Salvation is only for those who believe and remain faithful to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB)
27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (NIV)
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result YOU will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Luke 21:34-35 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30)

YOU are responsible to:

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness, and results in Eternal Life: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

God delights in our obedient faith and required this faith of you to be saved, We only receive the Holy Spirit, and are saved, by an obedient faith.

The Spirit will not believe for you
The Spirit will not remain faithful for you

The Scripture instruction makes clear that the responsibility is on the born again Christian to live by the Spirit, not that the Spirit does the work for you:

Your faith must lead to obedience...

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:21 (NIV)
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

1 John 2:4 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

The Spirit is only received by obeying Christ Jesus (an obedient faith)...

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

After you receive the Spirit by an obedient faith, then You are:

• obligated
• to put to death the misdeeds of the body,
• to live by, walk in,
• to reap to the Holy Spirit to be saved and
• set free from sin...

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Up to you to walk by the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Up to you to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to reap life

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Up to you to walk in the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5:16 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You must live according to the Spirit you received by faith

Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

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setst777 said:

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
>>

Setst RE: In Hebrews 12:2, "our" faith is not in the Scripture.

The Passage states that Jesus is the “Author” or “Pioneer” of Faith. This is HIS faith – the faith we are to emulate. This is not referring to our feeble faith. We are to follow Jesus supreme example of faith to be saved, which is to deny self, as Jesus did, and take up our cross, as Jesus did, and follow Him to be saved. As we follow Christ in this way, walking by His Spirit – as Scripture teaches – Christ becomes the Pioneer and Finisher of our faith.

Click to expand...

As for all your verses about obedience and faith leading to good works! I agree! Being saved means being made a new creature with a new nature and a new nature (to follow the Lord Jesus)

but if one is made a new creature- is made a child of God- they cannot be unmade by a season of sin! That is not to justify sin or excuse sin- but sin is not the issue!

The only thing Scripture does teach us is that if a person walks away from teh faith- they may not ever had been saved in teh first place!

The Parable of teh wheat and tares and 1 JOhn 1 that they left us, because they were not of us.


You will not find our in Greek, but in translating, it is required to insert when the verb needs it.

And for Hebrews 12: He is not the pioneer, there is no warrant for going to the secondary definition (as archegos is not translated pioneer anywhere else) He is the prince or ruler/leader. You also failed to add the rest of the sentence "and finisher" (teleotes) of our faith. OUr is required for other wise Jesus would be the author of any faith and that is unbiblical, and because "hos" does not appear here ("the faith") our is required!

nolidad said:

As for all your verses about obedience and faith

Click to expand...

nolidad writes:
<<
As for all your verses about obedience and faith leading to good works! I agree! Being saved means being made a new creature with a new nature and a new nature (to follow the Lord Jesus)
>>

setst RE:
Good that you agree with those Scriptures. Remember that many of those verses made it clear that this obedient faith, being a New Creature in Christ, is essential to receive eternal life.

Therefore you must be a disciple of Christ to be saved. That is the faith of Scripture. That is the Gospel.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Romans 6:21-22 (NIV)
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

nolidad writes:
<<
but if one is made a new creature- is made a child of God- they cannot be unmade by a season of sin! That is not to justify sin or excuse sin- but sin is not the issue!

The only thing Scripture does teach us is that if a person walks away from the faith- they may not ever had been saved in the first place!
>>

setst RE: I don't know of any Scripture that teaches that a person who was in “the faith” and walks away from “the faith” was never saved in the first place.

The Apostle Paul was not even sure of his salvation unless he remained faithful obedience to the end...

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 WEB)
26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Paul taught similarly to Timothy

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself, and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Paul definitely believed and taught the Church similarly to himself and Timothy regarding the possibility of losing salvation by falling away from the faith in all of his letters.

Paul taught the Church similarly in Romans 11:19-25...

Romans 11:19 You (individual Gentile believer) will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I (individual gentile believer) could be grafted in.”

20 Granted. But they (individual Jews) were broken off because of unbelief, and you (the individual Gentile believer the Paul addresses) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Gentile believer he is talking to) either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel (the Nation) has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

• No Gentile nations here. And there is only one Israel, not many Israels.
• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid.

Considering all this teaching by Paul concerning his own standing before God, and that of Timothy and others, we can readily see why the Apostle Paul gave so many warnings to the brothers and sisters in the faith about remaining in the faith and walking by the Spirit to be saved.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, WE have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time WE will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

The Book of Hebrews also gives many, MANY, warnings against falling away. Several that I keep repeating to you, show that your faith is only secure by being diligent to remain faithful to the end or you will be lost. No indication in any of those Scriptures that those who fall away were never in the faith to begin with...

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For WE have become partakers of Christ, IF WE hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If WE deliberately keep on sinning after WE have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For WE know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30).

The Scriptures I provided - some out of many - clearly show that those who are saved by faith in Jesus can definitely succumb to sin, temptation and false doctrine and, if not repented of, will definitely lead to a loss of salvation if they do not continue to walk in the Spirit. I will comment on the "wheat and the tares" after this.

We see many Scriptures from the Gospels to Revelation concerning those who were in "the faith," or "grace" but fell away. "The faith" and "grace" are special phrases used in Scripture that can only refer to "the faith" and "grace" that the Gospel declares as salvation.

Jude 3 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for “the faith” which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Those who were in the faith can so fall away as to be lost.

Galatians 5:4-5
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

1 Timothy 1:19 (NIV)
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to “the faith.”

1 Timothy 4:1-4 (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon “the faith” and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1 Timothy 6:10 (NIV)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from “the faith” and pierced themselves with many griefs.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NIV)
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from “the faith.”

Lord Jesus gave many warnings to repent regarding Churches in Revelation. I gave Scriptures for this as well. Only a few did not fall into sin...

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

nolidad writes:
<<
The Parable of teh wheat and tares and 1 JOhn 1 that they left us, because they were not of us.
>>

setst RE: We can only take the Parable as far as it goes. The Parable does not teach about those who are in the faith can never lose their salvation. For surely Jesus believed they could fall away according to Jesus’ warnings to repent in Revelation to the Churches.

nolidad writes:
<<
You will not find our in Greek, but in translating, it is required to insert when the verb needs it.

And for Hebrews 12: He is not the pioneer, there is no warrant for going to the secondary definition (as archegos is not translated pioneer anywhere else) He is the prince or ruler/leader. You also failed to add the rest of the sentence "and finisher" (teleotes) of our faith. OUr is required for other wise Jesus would be the author of any faith and that is unbiblical, and because "hos" does not appear here ("the faith") our is required!
>>

setst RE: Your logic fails in that there is no Scriptural teaching OT or NT that:

• God guarantees our faith, or that
• God is responsible to believe and remain faithful for us.

ALL of the Scriptures (OT and NT) teaches that WE are responsible to diligently remain faithful and obedient to God, walking by His Spirit to to the end to receive eternal life.

So, to extract an isolated verse to give your own meaning so as to try and prove all the other Scriptures false is not how we contextually come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

Just as Scripture teaches,

• Jesus is the Author of the faith we are to follow, to Follow HIM - according to the Scriptures.
• And as we walk by the Spirit of Christ to the end, Christ becomes the finisher of our faith - according to the Scriptures.

Revelation 3:21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, just as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

setst777 said:

setst RE:
Good that you agree with those Scriptures. Remember that many of those verses made it clear that this obedient faith, being a New Creature in Christ, is essential to receive eternal life.

Click to expand...

Sorry but that is wrong! A person is saved the instant they trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins! Obedience comes as a result of being given that new nature at salvation.

setst777 said:

Therefore you must be a disciple of Christ to be saved. That is the faith of Scripture. That is the Gospel.

Click to expand...

No that is not the gospel! You can be a believer without being a disciple, but you cannot be a disciple without being a believer. The two are mutually exclusive decisions.

setst777 said:

setst RE: I don't know of any Scripture that teaches that a person who was in “the faith” and walks away from “the faith” was never saved in the first place.

Click to expand...

I agree. But Jesus taught us that many may look saved and even act like they are saved, but for whatever, they walk away to show they never were of the faith.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

setst777 said:

Jude 3 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for “the faith” which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Those who were in the faith can so fall away as to be lost.

Click to expand...

Your comment doesn't correspond to the verse.

Once again as you have not answered these facts. If you believe someone who has been born again, who has been sealed by the spirit until the day of redemption, whom Jesus will never leave or forsake, who is already seated in heavenly places, has past from death to life, has once for all time been translated out of the kingdom of darkness, whose life is hidden in Christ in God, who has Jesus performing a ggood work now and will complete it, has already been justified and glorified, and one whom nothing san take them away form the love of God:

If that person can lose their salvation which is kept in heaven for them by Jesus.

Then you believe the following:

1. Jesus did not die for all sins
2. He is not able to keep those given to Him
3. He is not able to save all who come to HIm by faith.
4. And no matter how you wish to slcie and dice it you believe that Jesus obtained entrance into salvation, but you have to maintain your salvation by works. Because anything not of faith is sin!
5. You believe Christ did not end the law for righteousness for those who believe.
6. You still have people under the law and its curse.
7. You believe Jesus gives conditional eternal life.

Once again you are confusing actions for rewards with salvation.

YOu confuse our experience with our position in Christ!

Jesus paid the price for every sin of you--Past present and future. All your sins were future when Jesus was punished by the Father for ALL your sins. As far as eternal judgment goes- God does not see our sin anymore. Because they were already judged and paid for! God does not hold people to double jeopardy. IOW if Jesus paid the eternal price for you r sin- you will never have to!

This is the word of God!

Are we to obey Him? Of course we are! but if we obey Him we are obedient children. If we disobey Him- then we are disobedient children. Either way we are forever the Children of God because of the Blood!

YOu also confuse our fellowship with God that can be broken by our rebellion, and our relationship with god that can never be undone! If you believe otherwise- then you need to acknowledge that you believe Jesus did not die for all sins!

nolidad said:

Sorry but that is wrong! A person is saved the instant they trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins! Obedience comes as a result of being given that new nature at salvation.

Click to expand...

setst777 said: ↑
Good that you agree with those Scriptures. Remember that many of those verses made it clear that this obedient faith, being a New Creature in Christ, is essential to receive eternal life.

nolidad writes:
<<
Sorry but that is wrong! A person is saved the instant they trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins! Obedience comes as a result of being given that new nature at salvation.
>>

setst RE:
You must, by faith, repent and obey Christ first before you even receive His Spirit to make you a new nature as you walk by the Spirit...
Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

I believe a person is saved the instant they put their genuine Bible faith in Jesus at the hearing of the Gospel.

If our faith was true, then God's Spirit indwells us to free us from sin so that we may live out our faith as disciples of Christ, listening to and following Him as we walk by His Spirit in us. The Scriptures were given.

The New Life created to be like God comes by faithfully living by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:22-25 (NIV)
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:9-10 (NIV)
9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

setst777 said: ↑
Therefore you must be a disciple of Christ to be saved. That is the faith of Scripture. That is the Gospel.

nolidad writes:
<<
No that is not the gospel! You can be a believer without being a disciple, but you cannot be a disciple without being a believer. The two are mutually exclusive decisions.
>>

setst RE: A disciple is a follower of someone.

So you are saying that faith in Christ does not mean you have to follow Jesus to be saved?

You are saying you don’t have to walk by His Spirit to have life to be saved?

You are saying you don’t have to take up your cross and follow Jesus to be saved?

You are saying you don’t have to die to the old master, an rise to a new life in Christ to be saved (Romans 6)?

Yet, you say that repentance is necessary... What then did you repent of?

You must reject the Gospel according to Holy Scripture to hold onto what your itching ears desire to hear. Surely the path is narrow and few there be that find it. I only wish that was not true for you.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Matthew 28:19-20 (the Great Commission – The Gospel preached to every creature)

• Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
• baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
• and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

setst777 said: ↑
I don't know of any Scripture that teaches that a person who was in “the faith” and walks away from “the faith” was never saved in the first place.

Nolidad writes:
<<
I agree. But Jesus taught us that many may look saved and even act like they are saved, but for whatever, they walk away to show they never were of the faith.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
>>

Setst RE:
The subject of 1 John 2:18-23 are antichrists.

John even identifies the traits of antichrists so there is no confusion who he is referring to. Granted, some are still confused about this simple teaching on antichrists, but the teaching is clear. According to John, an antichrist is one who denies both the Father and the Son.

Islam is a good example of this – they deny Jesus is the Son of God. And they deny that God is a Father to anyone. And to believe this is an unforgivable sin in Islam. That is why Islam is antichrist.

You agree that no Scripture exists that teaches that a person who is in “the faith” and walks away from “the faith” was never saved in the first place. So why then do you believe it?

setst777 said: ↑
Jude 3 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for “the faith” which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Those who were in the faith can so fall away as to be lost.

nolidad replies:
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Your comment doesn't correspond to the verse.
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setst RE: I quoted Jude 3:3 to show that “the faith” refers to a genuine faith. The Passages I provided afterwards clearly show those who were in “the faith” yet fall away or be lost. You did not comment on those Passages.

nolidad writes:
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Once again as you have not answered these facts. If you believe someone who has been born again, who has been sealed by the spirit until the day of redemption, whom Jesus will never leave or forsake, who is already seated in heavenly places, has past from death to life, has once for all time been translated out of the kingdom of darkness, whose life is hidden in Christ in God, who has Jesus performing a ggood work now and will complete it, has already been justified and glorified, and one whom nothing san take them away form the love of God:

If that person can lose their salvation which is kept in heaven for them by Jesus.

Then you believe the following:

1. Jesus did not die for all sins
2. He is not able to keep those given to Him
3. He is not able to save all who come to HIm by faith.
4. And no matter how you wish to slcie and dice it you believe that Jesus obtained entrance into salvation, but you have to maintain your salvation by works. Because anything not of faith is sin!
5. You believe Christ did not end the law for righteousness for those who believe.
6. You still have people under the law and its curse.
7. You believe Jesus gives conditional eternal life.

Once again you are confusing actions for rewards with salvation.

YOu confuse our experience with our position in Christ!

Jesus paid the price for every sin of you--Past present and future. All your sins were future when Jesus was punished by the Father for ALL your sins. As far as eternal judgment goes- God does not see our sin anymore. Because they were already judged and paid for! God does not hold people to double jeopardy. IOW if Jesus paid the eternal price for you r sin- you will never have to!

This is the word of God!

Are we to obey Him? Of course we are! but if we obey Him we are obedient children. If we disobey Him- then we are disobedient children. Either way we are forever the Children of God because of the Blood!

YOu also confuse our fellowship with God that can be broken by our rebellion, and our relationship with god that can never be undone! If you believe otherwise- then you need to acknowledge that you believe Jesus did not die for all sins!
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Setst RE: These are your words taken from fragments of verses that you are erroneously using to prove your false doctrine.

For God’s part, He is faithful to accomplish all He promises for those who Believe… All the promises of God are ours only by faith in Christ Jesus, and remaining faithful to the end. All this is possible because of the redemption that is ours through faith in Christ Jesus.

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Luke 21:34-35 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone
deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30)

YOU are responsible to:
• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness, and results in Eternal Life: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

This is the Gospel - the New Creation in Christ.

God delights in our obedient faith and required this faith of you to be saved, We only receive the Holy Spirit, and are saved, by an obedient faith.

The Spirit will not believe for you
The Spirit will not remain faithful for you

The Scripture instruction makes clear that the responsibility is on the born again Christian to live by the Spirit, and not that the Spirit does the work for you:

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.