Did we misunderstood Apostle Paul?

dqhall said:

There are predominately Catholic communities falling short of the glory of God too.

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Understatment of the millennia...

Daniel9v9 said:

No, good works are the fruits of new life in Christ, not the cause or sustainer. That's the entire argument of Galatians.

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However, are you not considering that we receive the Holy Spirit as new believers and the Spirit Himself prompts us to act. When these prompts are ignored we are in danger of losing the fire of the Holy Spirit with whom we were initially anointed...hence the passage...Do not put out the Spirit's fire.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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There is a very specific time when God The Father will illuminate His chosen. I strongly believe that the world at large will experience The Truth, prior to going through the tribulations that come with being born again, can set you free. Since Christ is The Way The Truth and The Life, one must be called by God The Father before Christ enters the chosen. There are many mysteries in God’s Word that can only be revealed be The Holy Spirit. We try to be obedient to no avail without Christ. Only Christ can guide us to The Truth.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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Like all of the Bible, Old and New Testament, Paul's letters cannot be understood unless they are read through his eyes and within the scope of his experience and his culture. Whenever we try to translate any of the Bible through the scope of our 21st Century experience, culture, language, we are going to get it wrong more than we get it right.

As I have said before, even the best interpreters and Biblical scholars are likely to have a good laugh when they get to heaven and discover how much THEY got wrong. And those of us that are not as immersed in the process as the scholars are evenmoreso. And I am pretty sure God won't hold that against us.

Daniel9v9 said:

It is also written that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, and that we unprofitable servants. Good works do not merit salvation, nor do they sustain our salvation. God is the one who upholds us. Even so, we are still to do good, because these are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

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Indeed, full agreement that salvation is a gift of God and is by faith. I was responding to your other comment; I think????

Daniel9v9 said:

It is also written that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, and that we unprofitable servants. Good works do not merit salvation, nor do they sustain our salvation. God is the one who upholds us. Even so, we are still to do good, because these are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

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The work prepared beforehand is also carried out by Him to accomplish the good works for Him.
1 Peter 4
10As good stewards of the manifold grace of God, each of you should use whatever gift he has received to serve one another. 11If anyone speaks, he should speak as one conveying the words of God. If anyone serves, he should serve with the strength God supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

CodyFaith said:

Reading the epistles can't cause people to stumble. Saying or suggesting they could to others might though.

Also, do you still not believe in the Old Testament? Disregarding both the Old Testament and much of the NT that alligns with the OT?

Christianity is not in huge trouble. There are many of us who are in fellowship and communion with one heart and mind on many key doctrines. The Holy Spirit guided us to this blessed fellowship.

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But what happens if someone led by the holy spirit doesn’t agree with your group?

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

But what happens if someone led by the holy spirit doesn’t agree with your group?

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I suppose if it is something you must agree upon as one organized body that you'd have to part company as did the Apostle Paul and Barnabas.

throughfireytrial said:

I suppose if it is something you must agree upon as one organized body that you'd have to part company as did the Apostle Paul and Barnabas.

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I agree but I hate that it has to be like that. All led by the spirit but don’t come to the same conclusions. Not cool!

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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Paul's words are easiest to distort so as defend OSAS or a Belief Alone type gospel. This is why his words being hard to be understood they twist them to their own destruction. For one does not usually read Paul and quickly think he taught salvation also involves the Sanctification process (After being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ). That would be more of Jesus and or John that we get a clear understanding on the importance of the Sanctification Process as a part of the salvation equation. But, Paul does teach Sanctification as a part of the salvation process. One has to carefully read Paul in order to catch it. But alas, most do not want to hear that and so they close their ears, so as not to hear it.

Anyways, the solution to understand Paul is to pray, pray, pray, and pray some more as one compares Scripture with Scripture to truly understand.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

Paul's words are easiest to distort so as defend OSAS or a Belief Alone type gospel. This is why his words being hard to be understood they twist them to their own destruction. For one does not usually read Paul and quickly think he taught salvation also involves the Sanctification process (After being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ). That would be more of Jesus and or John that we get a clear understanding on the importance of the Sanctification Process as a part of the salvation equation. But, Paul does teach Sanctification as a part of the salvation process. One has to carefully read Paul in order to catch it. But alas, most do not want to hear that and so they close their ears, so as not to hear it.

Anyways, the solution to understand Paul is to pray, pray, pray, and pray some more as one compares Scripture with Scripture to truly understand.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

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Oh, I don't believe it is that hard to find the need for sanctification via Paul's Epistles at all. A few...
Philippians 3:12-13:
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead...
I Corinthians 9:26-27:
Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
II Thessalonians 3:7-9:
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate.
II Thessalonians 3:10-11:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.
Romans 12:1-2:
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
But there is sooo much more in Paul's Epistles (which are God's hand) to illustrate we must move on to perfection. Apostle Paul's/God's writings are all about becoming sanctified.

throughfireytrial said:

Oh, I don't believe it is that hard to find the need for sanctification via Paul's Epistles at all. A few...
Philippians 3:12-13:
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead...
I Corinthians 9:26-27:
Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
II Thessalonians 3:7-9:
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate.
II Thessalonians 3:10-11:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.
Romans 12:1-2:
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
But there is sooo much more in Paul's Epistles (which are God's hand) to illustrate we must move on to perfection. Apostle Paul's/God's writings are all about becoming sanctified.

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I am not saying that it is hard to find for those who are looking (like ourselves). I am saying it is hard to find or see for those who are not wanting to see it. Paul's words are easiest to distort towards the bent view that he taught Belief Alone-ism, or that believers can sin and still be saved. Paul was teaching against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." However, in the world of OSAS, they think Paul was talking against doing good works of any kind as a part of salvation (When this is not the case). They will point to Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, Romans 4:1-4, Romans 7:14-24, Galatians 3, Titus 3:5, etc. to prove their case.

For example: Some will quote Romans 4:4 in saying that it is wrong that we are debtors.

But a couple of chapters later, Paul says we are not debtors to the flesh, so as to live after the flesh (sin), but we are to put to death misdeeds of the body so that we can live.

12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).

Paul is saying that the person who is seeking to be circumcised is debtor to do the whole of the Old Law (See Galatians 5:2-3). This was not in reference to obeying the commands of Jesus.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

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But understanding hard things isn't impossible, only...hard.

timewerx said:

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

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Is this Paul's fault, though? Is the immaturity of some believers Paul's doing? No. He urges sensitivity to spiritual immaturity but he does not assign blame to himself for these sensitivities in spiritually-immature believers.

timewerx said:

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible.

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If all the writings of Paul did not make it into Scripture, it is because the Early Church did not deem them all as integral to an understanding of the Christian faith. Those that they believed were necessary to the establishment and dissemination of proper Christian doctrine and practice, they copied and circulated, and studied together - a process guided, of course, by God whose word Paul was communicating to the Early Church. We can be confident, then, that the canon of Scripture is exactly as it should be, no more (ie. apocryphal/deuterocanonical writings) and no less.

timewerx said:

There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

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One could say there are a lot of unknowns in the realms of astrophysics, and cosmology, and quantum mechanics, but this doesn't prevent scientists from speaking very confidently about what things they do know in these areas of research. I don't know everything there is to know about mathematics, but this doesn't prevent me from being confident that 2+2 does, in fact, equal 4. It doesn't follow, then, that the existence of unknowns in a given area means we cannot be confident about what is known in that area.

timewerx said:

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

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Not necessarily. First and foremost, we have God's Spirit teaching us, revealing God's truth to us. Then, from the field of history, we have a pretty good idea of the cultural context in which Paul was writing. Next, we have Paul's very structured, rational approach to explaining the doctrines of the faith. We also can examine Paul's words in the language original to his various epistles. So, we aren't clawing about in the dark for understanding when it comes to Paul's teachings. Far from it.

timewerx said:

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

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Proof, please. This is a very broad generalization you're making here. I know in my own city, some denominations exist because of language and culture, not doctrine. There are Swedish Baptists, and German Baptists, and Filipino Baptists, for instance. Other denominations differ in authority and leadership structure rather than doctrine. And so, many of the evangelical Protestant churches in my city hold the same basic doctrines and practices in common. Missionary Alliance, Baptists, Evangelical Free, Mennonites, Calvary Temple, various non-denoms, Presbyterians, etc. all hold the same fundamental beliefs concerning the Gospel, the nature of God and Christ, biblical morality, and so on. So, denominational distinctives are often less drastic, less doctrinal, than many suppose.

timewerx said:

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

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Uh huh. But this doesn't mean we must all, therefore, be wrong.

timewerx said:

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures.

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No one is ever truly free of bias. We all have biases arising from things so fundamental to who we are, we often don't even recognize them. And this is why the illumination of the Holy Spirit is so vital, as well as careful, prolonged study of God's word.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

But what happens if someone led by the holy spirit doesn’t agree with your group?

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Then they are not led by the Holy Spirit if they come to conclusions that are not alligned with truth. The Holy Spirit is called by Christ the Spirit of Truth. It is called in Isaiah the Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge. People often say the Spirit is leading them to xyz things and conclusions but in actuality it was just emotional falsehood and itchy ears fulfilling their desires to see what they want to see.

"My group" is the global Body of Christ, all of whom are at various points in growing in the Spirit. Some are lost in false doctrine and in churches that teach or hold to false doctrine, some are in better places and in churches that as a whole mostly teach and hold to truth.

Depending on the doctrinal differences and/or spiritual maturity, it may be that fellowship is not possible. And I will just say that if your theological differences are so different that you cannot fellowship in any established churches in an honest manner, you need to seriously ask yourself if you believe that Jesus intended that. And if the answer is No, which it should be, then it means you are wrong in something. One of the main teachings of Christ is to love one another. This requires fellowship. Not fellowship with one or two people, not fellowship online, but face to face. He commands us to take Communion with one another, not alone.

These reasons and more are why it's so important to be in sync with other believers on main teachings. God wants Oneness in the Church so long as it's not comprimising on scripture/theological truths.