Which is the most accurate text?

iamlamad

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Most of Revelation (from Ch. 4 on) is future.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Ch. 1), and the things which are (Ch. 2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Ch 4-22)​

Since John experienced his heavenly exposure to future Revelation events as they occurred on earth, and returned and penned them about 95 AD, Christ was long gone from his earthly ministry by then.

Of course, many disagree about the timing of the writing of Revelation; and about much of Revelation actually.
I think you are reading that text as if there was an "ONLY" included in it: John was to write ONLY of the hereafter. Of course God did not include an only: He could have told John two events of the future, and then completed the book with recipes for manna - and he would not have disobeyed this verse. In other words, God left Himself the option of including some history.

About this particular part of the vision: chapters 4 & 5: John wanted to introduce John (and then in turn us) the the BOOK: which would be what would get Satan kicked off his usurped throne as god of this world. In other words, the book is VERY IMPORTANT and a very big part of Revelation. God then chose to start where the book was still in the hand of the Father. Of necessity then, God had to back up and show John some history. These two chapters show us that Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended - so around 32 AD.

This passage tells us a story that shows timing and the movement of time. First, a throne room where it seems Jesus was absent - when we would expect Him to be at the right hand of the Father. Then a throne room where the Holy Spirit was there (as the 7 spirits of God) when we would expect Him to be sent down. Then finally a search for one worthy to open the book, but a search that ended in failure. All these are clues to show us TIMING. Finally in chapter John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. This to me is God showing us TIMING.
 
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_Dave_

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I think you are reading that text as if there was an "ONLY" included in it: John was to write ONLY of the hereafter. Of course God did not include an only: He could have told John two events of the future, and then completed the book with recipes for manna - and he would not have disobeyed this verse. In other words, God left Himself the option of including some history.

There's nothing ambiguous about this statement.
Revelation 4:1 -- After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

"After this" refers to the things that "are" in Chapters 2 and 3. Chapter 4 and on are all of the things which "shall be."

I agree that there is some historical background in some parenthetical verses in Revelation, but those chapters appear long after the events of the end times have begun to unfold.

Chapter 5 follows a chronology that extends to the rest of the book. Christ is given the scroll, and in the very next chapter the opening of the seals begin. John is watching "things which must be hereafter," beginning in Chapter 4, and continuing in Chapter 5. The events in Chapter 6 would make no sense without that continuity.
 
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This whole discussion started with some trying to prove these elders were New Testament saints, and others trying to prove they could not be.

I personally think they are Old Testament saints. I think it impossible they are New Testament saints simply because of timing. I see these two chapters as a vision of the past: note that in 5:6 John got to see in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

The Word of disagrees with what you think..........again. The Word says that it is impossible that they are old testament saints. The Word says that He saw Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her 1st time. That means God had planned for Israel to be the first harvest........but Israel served other Gods. That is why you can be sure that those in heaven in Rev 5 are the church. What you think is timing does not agree with the Word.
Hosea 6
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
 
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iamlamad

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There's nothing ambiguous about this statement.


"After this" refers to the things that "are" in Chapters 2 and 3. Chapter 4 and on are all of the things which "shall be."

I agree that there is some historical background in some parenthetical verses in Revelation, but those chapters appear long after the events of the end times have begun to unfold.

Chapter 5 follows a chronology that extends to the rest of the book. Christ is given the scroll, and in the very next chapter the opening of the seals begin. John is watching "things which must be hereafter," beginning in Chapter 4, and continuing in Chapter 5. The events in Chapter 6 would make no sense without that continuity.
I agree with "continuity:" In Chapter 5, Jesus ascends into the throne room - probably right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended - and then gets the book from the Father and begins opening the seals.

All this is to show us the first seal was only as soon as Jesus ascended. Chapters 4 & 5 are the context of the first seal. Yet, SO MANY wish to pull that first seal out of its first century context and make it something in our future.
 
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_Dave_

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In Chapter 5, Jesus ascends into the throne room

I can't find any language in Chapter 5 that describes Jesus ascending into the throne room. However, Scripture does describe Him being there already:

Revelation 5:5-6 -- And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

IOW, "John, don't cry. See? Jesus is here. He can open the book."
 
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In Chapter 5, Jesus ascends into the throne room - probably right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended - and then gets the book from the Father and begins opening the seals.
This was a vision of a time while Christ was still on earth: how could they possibly be New Testament saints?
Please show us where you get this.:scratch:

The Lord clearly said, when John was taken up to Heaven, that He was going to show John the things that would take place "after these things". Those things were His dealings with the various churches in the chapters before.

Are you saying that the Lord didn't ascend to Heaven until after the various churches were up and functioning?

Are you saying that the various churches He chastised did not yet have the Holy Spirit from Whom they would get the power to overcome? The Holy Spirit was given to the churches when the Lord ascended to the throne of God. If they didn't have the Holy Spirit and were functioning in their own power - the Lord could hardly find fault in them for their lack of power.

The question about the two texts is interesting and worthy of discussion.

But where are you getting this other stuff brother?
 
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iamlamad

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I can't find any language in Chapter 5 that describes Jesus ascending into the throne room. However, Scripture does describe Him being there already:


IOW, "John, don't cry. See? Jesus is here. He can open the book."

No language? Perhaps that is because you don't see chapter 4 the way I see it: as showing a time while Christ was on the earth so not seen at the right and of the Father. It is truth - absolute truth: there was around 32 years when Jesus was on earth, not in heaven. As the song says, "he left the splendor of heaven, knowing His destiny was the lonely Hill of Golgatha..."

So He is NOT there at the right hand of the Father.
He has not yet risen from the dead, so "no man was found..."
Then TIME PASSED
Jesus rose from the dead and "prevailed (over death) to open the book.
Then suddenly a new entity in heaven: someone who was NOT THERE a moment before:

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

This text shows us that He was not there a moment before (not seen at the right hand of the Father, not qualified to open the book) , but suddenly appeared there. WHEN? What is the timing: It is the very time Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.

I am convinced this was God showing us the very moment Jesus ascended: but it is in symbolic form.
 
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Marilyn C

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Marilyn, show us the scriptural proof these 24 elders are of the body of Christ.

Hi iamlamad,

I would be pleased to show the scriptural proof that the 24 elders represent to Body of Christ.

1. There are 24 Elders, representing the highest government. (2 x 12)

2. They are on thrones around the main throne. The Body of Christ has been promised that they would sit on the Lord`s throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Kingpriests of the order of the High priest. (Rev. 1: 6 & Heb. 6: 20)

3. They are clothed in white robes, made holy through Christ`s blood.

4. With Golden crowns, Victor`s, overcomers.

5. There are more than 24 in every tribe, tongue, people and nation, thus the 24 elders represent the whole Body of Christ.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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This was a vision of a time while Christ was still on earth: how could they possibly be New Testament saints?

Hi iamlamad,

The 4 visions of the Lord in revelation are as He is known in the heavenly realms -

1. Head of the Body of Christ.
2. Heir of the world.
3. Mediator of the Covenant.
4. Judge and Creator of all things new.

That is why it is called the revelation, or unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ. It brings to completion all that has gone before in God`s word.

Marilyn.
 
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iamlamad

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Hi iamlamad,

I would be pleased to show the scriptural proof that the 24 elders represent to Body of Christ.

1. There are 24 Elders, representing the highest government. (2 x 12)

2. They are on thrones around the main throne. The Body of Christ has been promised that they would sit on the Lord`s throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Kingpriests of the order of the High priest. (Rev. 1: 6 & Heb. 6: 20)

3. They are clothed in white robes, made holy through Christ`s blood.

4. With Golden crowns, Victor`s, overcomers.

5. There are more than 24 in every tribe, tongue, people and nation, thus the 24 elders represent the whole Body of Christ.

Marilyn.
There is a serious problem with that theory; that is CONTEXT.

We have to determine by the context the TIMING of this vision; not the time John SAW it but the time created by the vision John saw: a throne where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of God; a time when no man was qualified to take the book and open the seals, and a time when the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent down.

What time is it inside the vision? It must be a time that answers these three items God showed John.
 
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iamlamad

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Hi iamlamad,

The 4 visions of the Lord in revelation are as He is known in the heavenly realms -

1. Head of the Body of Christ.
2. Heir of the world.
3. Mediator of the Covenant.
4. Judge and Creator of all things new.

That is why it is called the revelation, or unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ. It brings to completion all that has gone before in God`s word.

Marilyn.
Marilyn, we must be extremely carefully to form theories IN CONTEXT. I think we all agree that John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. But what is the time shown in the vision?

You missed one: One Worthy to take the book and open the seals.
 
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iamlamad

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Please show us where you get this.:scratch:

The Lord clearly said, when John was taken up to Heaven, that He was going to show John the things that would take place "after these things". Those things were His dealings with the various churches in the chapters before.

Are you saying that the Lord didn't ascend to Heaven until after the various churches were up and functioning?

Are you saying that the various churches He chastised did not yet have the Holy Spirit from Whom they would get the power to overcome? The Holy Spirit was given to the churches when the Lord ascended to the throne of God. If they didn't have the Holy Spirit and were functioning in their own power - the Lord could hardly find fault in them for their lack of power.

The question about the two texts is interesting and worthy of discussion.

But where are you getting this other stuff brother?
It is extremely poor exegesis to form theories by pulling verses out of their context. To discover the Author's intent, verses absolutely must be left in their context.

Most people agree that John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. That would be in Rev. 4:1. Question: is it still "church age" in 95 AD? Of course it is. In other words, the ONLY meaning we can get from "after these things" is John used that phrase as a transition: God had finished His dictation to the seven churches and was not going to begin to show John visions. Many people try to add meaning to "after these things" and imagine the Author's meaning is "after the church age." That is very poor exegesis. John used a similar phrase 6 times in the book - every time as a transitional phrase as God showed Him something new.

He was going to show John the things that would take place "after these things". This is not quite right. He said "hereafter. It was a simple statement of fact: God was going to show John some things that would be in John's future. And God DID that: most of the chapters after chapter 6 are indeed things STILL future. Note carefully that God did not tell John He was going to show John ONLY future events. That seems to be what people imagine He said.

Are you saying that the Lord didn't ascend to Heaven until after the various churches were up and functioning? Of course not. I am only ascertaining by the text the timing God wanted us to see from this vision in chapters 4 & 5. There are enough clues we can determine timing. We probably all agree that John was called up to heaven around 95 AD, and that Jesus ascended around 32 AD. What we have to determine is what the timing is inside this vision: God can show any time in a vision; past, present, future or all together.

We can only determine the timing by the things God showed to John. For example, God the Father on the throne but Jesus NOT SEEM at His right hand. The Holy Spirit there in chapter 4 but sent down in chapter 5. No man found worthy to take the book - but later Jesus found worthy. All these things are giving us hints as to time.

Are you saying that the various churches He chastised did not yet have the Holy Spirit from Whom they would get the power to overcome? Of course not. I am only determining the TIME God displayed inside this vision.

The Holy Spirit was given to the churches when the Lord ascended to the throne of God. You are thinking OUTSIDE the vision; I am speaking only what this vision shows us. Did you not notice that in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit was in the throne room and in chapter 5 sent down? These are TIMING clues.
 
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_Dave_

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Iamlamad, I'm coming out of "retirement" from this thread because I'm curious about the origin of your theory about Revelation 5.

I don't normally run to an appeal to authority, but can you link me to at least one Bible scholar who understands Revelation 5 the same way you do? I have several good study Bibles and they all take the traditional view of those passages.

What I am saying is that if you are the only one ever to come up with that understanding then maybe it is a private interpretation and you might want to rethink it.

Having said that, I do understand that how one views Revelation 5 is not exactly a salvation issue, so no harm done if you wish to continue believing it the way you do.

Blessings.
 
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iamlamad

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Iamlamad, I'm coming out of "retirement" from this thread because I'm curious about the origin of your theory about Revelation 5.

I don't normally run to an appeal to authority, but can you link me to at least one Bible scholar who understands Revelation 5 the same way you do? I have several good study Bibles and they all take the traditional view of those passages.

What I am saying is that if you are the only one ever to come up with that understanding then maybe it is a private interpretation and you might want to rethink it.

Having said that, I do understand that how one views Revelation 5 is not exactly a salvation issue, so no harm done if you wish to continue believing it the way you do.

Blessings.
Dave, I am certainly not the only one. It is not "private" and it fits the whole of Scripture. It does not come from one verse.

I will add, how one views chapters 4 & 5 will determine how they view most of the rest of the book. It is that important to get it right here. Welcome back!

You might look up redmoonrising dot com.
It seems he believes very closely to what I believe.
 
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_Dave_

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You might look up redmoonrising dot com. It seems he believes very closely to what I believe.
I went there and didn't see a search feature for nailing down his view of Revelation 5.

Any other help would be appreciated.
 
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iamlamad

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I went there and didn't see a search feature for nailing down his view of Revelation 5.

Any other help would be appreciated.
Dave, if "no man was found..." does that not at least HINT that a search was made? Well, it does to me.

If the strong angel was just looking for a "volunteer," still the answer was the same: no one volunteered because "no man was found" worthy at that point in time.
 
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_Dave_

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Dave, if "no man was found..." does that not at least HINT that a search was made? Well, it does to me.

If the strong angel was just looking for a "volunteer," still the answer was the same: no one volunteered because "no man was found" worthy at that point in time.

I can't speak for everybody, but I am not disputing that John is watching an episode play out in the throne room of heaven where the strong angel asks who is worthy to open the book. It's your imposing a timing theory on the event, necessitating a long period of time going backward between contiguous passages that I question.

Correct me if I've got it wrong, but you are saying that:

• Around 95AD John is called up to the throne room of heaven to witness things that are in the future after 95AD.

Revelation 4:11 -- After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

• But he is immediately cast into a vision of some time a good 60 years before that where the angel is asking who is worthy to open the book.

Revelation 5:2 -- And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time 60-year flashback.)​

• Then, the time shifts within moments to several years later to allow Christ to be crucified and resurrected in order to receive the scroll.

Revelation 5:6 -- And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time moving forward of a few years, but still a flashback to decades before John's real-time visit to heaven.)​

• Then, within the same event, John sees at least 2,000 years later the beginning of the opening of the seals which Jesus was just handed. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time leap of at least 2,000 years into the future, as all that John had seen is already at least 2,000 years in his future, and still in our future in fact, as the end times tribulation has not yet begun.)

This is what's interesting: Of the 25 verses in Revelation 4-5 fully 21 of them begin with the conjunction "and." One dictionary defines "and" as:

1. a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause.
2. the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space.​

It's particularly poignant that the conjunction "and" joins the end of Chapter 5 with the beginning of Chapter 6, meaning the events shown as beginning in Chapter 6, the opening of the seals, immediately follows the events in the previous chapter, the giving of the scroll to Christ; which immediately follows the angel asking who is worthy to open the scroll.

One widely recognized rule of good hermeneutics is that when a literal interpretation makes sense, seek no other interpretation. There is literally no problem with interpreting the events of Chapters 4 and 5, leading into Chapter 6, as a contiguous series of events unfolding from beginning to end, with the conclusion being the opening of the seals in Chapter 6.

However, imposing an unnecessary back-and-forth timeline on these contiguous events creates confusion and, furthermore, is not supported in the text.

The introduction to this passage that begins in Revelation 4:1 is absolutely unambiguous: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." And there is no text in Chapters 4 and 5 cancelling that pronouncement. Like I said, the vast majority of verses in the two chapters begin with the conjunction "and" bridging each verse to the next in an unbroken series of contiguous events.

Iamlamad, my challenge to you is to show the text cancelling the "hereafter" that proves your theory about the flashback that you say John witnesses.
 
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Marilyn C

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There is a serious problem with that theory; that is CONTEXT.

We have to determine by the context the TIMING of this vision; not the time John SAW it but the time created by the vision John saw: a throne where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of God; a time when no man was qualified to take the book and open the seals, and a time when the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent down.

What time is it inside the vision? It must be a time that answers these three items God showed John.

Hi iamlamad,

The throne in Rev. 4 is `set up by the Father so that the Son can be seen as the visible ruler over all. At the moment, we know that He is at the right hand of the Father until the Father brings all enemies to His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) (Invisible in the Godhead.)

In Rev. 5 we see a pictorial illustration of what is happening. The Father is shown to reach out His right hand, but we know that God is spirit and does not have hands etc. Then we see Jesus represented by the `lion and lamb` indicating His identity from His manifestation on earth as a man.

He is recognised by all as the Worthy One to receive all the power and authority, (etc) from the Father to rule visibly, (not invisibly in the Godhead) from the highest realm.

When the Lord is thus acclaimed, then we, the Body of Christ will be there too. (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Marilyn, we must be extremely carefully to form theories IN CONTEXT. I think we all agree that John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. But what is the time shown in the vision?

You missed one: One Worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Hi iamlamad,

It is clearly after the rapture and just before the tribulation. The Father said His Son -

"Sit at My right hand TILL I make your enemies Your footstool,"

This has yet to happen. Then -

"The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!" (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

Marilyn.
 
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I can't speak for everybody, but I am not disputing that John is watching an episode play out in the throne room of heaven where the strong angel asks who is worthy to open the book. It's your imposing a timing theory on the event, necessitating a long period of time going backward between contiguous passages that I question.

Correct me if I've got it wrong, but you are saying that:

• Around 95AD John is called up to the throne room of heaven to witness things that are in the future after 95AD.

Revelation 4:11 -- After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​
He has been shown this before and just ignores it. He is always talking about timing and intent of the author and then looks the other way when timing is clearly given that disproves what he is saying. Admitting an error and learning the truth would be a good course of action.
 
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