LDS Mormon Jesus Versus Christian Jesus

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So the Nicene Creed got it wrong then as it was written after Christ's death. When did we refuse to even acknowledge and appreciate His sacrifice? We never have done so, He is the way and the only way back to God our Father.

You fail to recognize just how much Jesus gave up for us---He was one with God before the incarnation---of His substance. He gave up that unique physicality to become human forever. You also do not give Him the honor He deserves for He is the one and only Son of God, not one of many sons. You also do not acknowledge His creative powers that He is the one that created everything and from nothing---so no, you do not give Him the honor He deserves.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BigDaddy4
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
You fail to recognize just how much Jesus gave up for us---He was one with God before the incarnation---of His substance. He gave up that unique physicality to become human forever. You also do not give Him the honor He deserves for He is the one and only Son of God, not one of many sons. You also do not acknowledge His creative powers that He is the one that created everything and from nothing---so no, you do not give Him the honor He deserves.
You said: "He is the one and only Son of God, not one of many sons."
Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God, not the only son of God the Father. He did not have an earthly father yet He is our brother:

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Another of your inconsistencies with the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You said: "He is the one and only Son of God, not one of many sons."
Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God, not the only son of God the Father. He did not have an earthly father yet He is our brother:

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Another of your inconsistencies with the Bible.

Like I said---you do not give Him the honor due Him for His abilities and station--You are the one that disagrees with the bible and believe that the writings of JS are more accurate than the bible and whatever the scriptures say that do not agree with JS--you will choose his writings above the bible---and being the One AND ONLY SON OF GOD is what is biblical---many sons is not biblical in the slightest---Jesus is our brother after the incarnation---not before--before He was not human. My believes are not insistent with the bible nor do I believe 2 different things and can quote whichever believe suits me at the moment.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Like I said---you do not give Him the honor due Him for His abilities and station--You are the one that disagrees with the bible and believe that the writings of JS are more accurate than the bible and whatever the scriptures say that do not agree with JS--you will choose his writings above the bible---and being the One AND ONLY SON OF GOD is what is biblical---many sons is not biblical in the slightest---Jesus is our brother after the incarnation---not before--before He was not human. My believes are not insistent with the bible nor do I believe 2 different things and can quote whichever believe suits me at the moment.
I do not disagree with the Bible, you do:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I do not disagree with the Bible, you do:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

We are called His children and the bible clearly says we are adopted---we are not the product of the Father and one of His wives. That is not in the bible--you will not find it anywhere. Since I did not add anything to His Holy word---I can't be in disagreement to it. If you are in agreement with the bible---please state the verse that says we are the product of the Father and one of His wives.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
We are called His children and the bible clearly says we are adopted---we are not the product of the Father and one of His wives. That is not in the bible--you will not find it anywhere. Since I did not add anything to His Holy word---I can't be in disagreement to it. If you are in agreement with the bible---please state the verse that says we are the product of the Father and one of His wives.
The reason the Bible states that we need to be adopted is because of the fall of Adam we were cast out. That being said we can return because of the atonement and being able to endure chastisement:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 15)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The reason the Bible states that we need to be adopted is because of the fall of Adam we were cast out. That being said we can return because of the atonement and being able to endure chastisement:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 15)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

There is no verse that states we are adopted because of having been thrown out of the garden---We are adopted because we are not His natural children. When a father throws a child out of the house--or the child leaves the house as the prodigal son did---the child does not loose the fact that he is the natural child of the parent. The prodigal son did not need to be adopted when he came home.

Again--please state the verse that states we are the product of the Father and one of His wives---I can spare you a lot of reading---there isn't one.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

There is no verse that states we are adopted because of having been thrown out of the garden---We are adopted because we are not His natural children. When a father throws a child out of the house--or the child leaves the house as the prodigal son did---the child does not loose the fact that he is the natural child of the parent. The prodigal son did not need to be adopted when he came home.

Again--please state the verse that states we are the product of the Father and one of His wives---I can spare you a lot of reading---there isn't one.
You quoted Romans 8:15 but not all:

(New Testament | Romans 8:15 - 17)

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You quoted Romans 8:15 but not all:

(New Testament | Romans 8:15 - 17)

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

An adopted child becomes an heir--legally entitled to an inheritance. I know this passage well----what part of it says we are the product of the Father and one of His wives???
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
An adopted child becomes an heir--legally entitled to an inheritance. I know this passage well----what part of it says we are the product of the Father and one of His wives???
So you want a scripture about God's wife do you. That is easy:
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The male (Adam) is in the image of God the Father while the female (Eve) is in the image of her Mother.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So you want a scripture about God's wife do you. That is easy:
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The male (Adam) is in the image of God the Father while the female (Eve) is in the image of her Mother.


OK---just exactly where does it say God produced spirit children with one of His wives?? Missed it I guess.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
OK---just exactly where does it say God produced spirit children with one of His wives?? Missed it I guess.
So I guess you couldn't figure it out and totally missed it. Who did you think the US is? What about the OUR LIKENESS?
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So I guess you couldn't figure it out and totally missed it. Who did you think the US is? What about the OUR LIKENESS?


Just exactly where is the wife? Please underline, I can't find it. Us=Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Our likeness, Barbie and Ken are in our likeness, doesn't make them the same as us.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Just exactly where is the wife? Please underline, I can't find it. Us=Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Our likeness, Barbie and Ken are in our likeness, doesn't make them the same as us.
So you believe that Eve is in the likeness of the Father? Well good luck with that. Even Barbie and Ken are in the image of male and female.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,535
13,689
✟428,472.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
So if the Father does not have a spiritual resurrected body of flesh and bones, the Father and Son are not of the same substance then.

Oh no...not this again...I thought this would end when I blocked Peter1000! :doh:

Okay. Out of love for our Lord, let's go over this one more time:

The term used in the Creed in the original Greek to denote the relationship between the Father and the Son is homoousios, homo meaning 'same' and ousia meaning 'essence'. When the Creed was translated from Greek into Latin, the Latin-speakers used the closest term they had to homoousios, which is consubstantia. Hence, in English-speaking countries that use a form of the Creed inherited from Latin, you'll likely hear the nearly identical word "consubstantial" used in place of the original homoousios (unless the people reciting the Creed are Orthodox Christians, since some of us just kept the original word; it was left untranslated in the Coptic version inherited in my Church, and hence we have kept it in the English version we use). Some English translations use the term "co-essential" instead of "consubstantial", but the important thing to remember is that all of these terms -- homoousious, consubstantia(l), co-essential -- mean the same thing: the Father and the Son share the same essence, the same divinity. That is what homoousios and consubstantial both mean.

Note that in all of this I have said nothing about bodies or types of bodies that the Father or the Son do or do not have. This is because ousia has nothing at all to do with physical matter of any kind. That was not, is not, and will never be the point being made in the Creed, since the heresy that the Creed was originally written in response to, Arianism, denied that Christ was eternally begotten of God the Father (i.e., it claimed that He was a created being, made by God the Father in time), thereby denying Him the same eternal divinity ascribed to the Father and making Them unalike in essence -- not homoousios/consubstantial. (There was a viewpoint between the two claimed by the so-called 'semi-Arians' that the Father and Christ were 'homoiousios' -- of a similar, but not the same essence/substance -- but this is shut out by the Creed, too.)

So obviously the Creed doesn't talk about physical bodies (other than talking about the incarnation, of course), since Arianism wasn't really about that, so it wasn't really necessary to do so to fight Arianism. I believe that Mormons are getting the term consubstantial confused with the word substance, since they both obviously derive from the same Latin root. That doesn't mean that just because you can use 'substance' to describe various kinds of physical matter that when you read 'consubstantial' in the Creed it is also referring to physical matter. It's not. Heck, even in English there are plenty of ways to use 'substance' that don't refer to physical matter at all. Ever hear anyone argue about "the substance" of an argument? Unless they're mentally unbalanced, they're not claiming that the argument is made out of physical matter, because...well, that's just not what an argument is. That would be a basic misunderstanding of the word 'argument', just like Mormons are stuck on a basic misunderstanding of what the words homoousios and/or consubstantial mean.

There isn't really any other way to put it. You don't understand what the words involved mean, and I can explain them to you, but I can't understand them for you (as the saying goes). If my past interaction with Mormons on here is anything to go by, you're probably going to have to leave Mormonism (or find some other way to detach yourself from Mormon theology) to change that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Oh no...not this again...I thought this would end when I blocked Peter1000! :doh:

Okay. Out of love for our Lord, let's go over this one more time:

The term used in the Creed in the original Greek to denote the relationship between the Father and the Son is homoousios, homo meaning 'same' and ousia meaning 'essence'. When the Creed was translated from Greek into Latin, the Latin-speakers used the closest term they had to homoousios, which is consubstantia. Hence, in English-speaking countries that use a form of the Creed inherited from Latin, you'll likely hear the nearly identical word "consubstantial" used in place of the original homoousios (unless the people reciting the Creed are Orthodox Christians, since some of us just kept the original word; it was left untranslated in the Coptic version inherited in my Church, and hence we have kept it in the English version we use). Some English translations use the term "co-essential" instead of "consubstantial", but the important thing to remember is that all of these terms -- homoousious, consubstantia(l), co-essential -- mean the same thing: the Father and the Son share the same essence, the same divinity. That is what homoousios and consubstantial both mean.

Note that in all of this I have said nothing about bodies or types of bodies that the Father or the Son do or do not have. This is because ousia has nothing at all to do with physical matter of any kind. That was not, is not, and will never be the point being made in the Creed, since the heresy that the Creed was originally written in response to, Arianism, denied that Christ was eternally begotten of God the Father (i.e., it claimed that He was a created being, made by God the Father in time), thereby denying Him the same eternal divinity ascribed to the Father and making Them unalike in essence -- not homoousios/consubstantial. (There was a viewpoint between the two claimed by the so-called 'semi-Arians' that the Father and Christ were 'homoiousios' -- of a similar, but not the same essence/substance -- but this is shut out by the Creed, too.)

So obviously the Creed doesn't talk about physical bodies (other than talking about the incarnation, of course), since Arianism wasn't really about that, so it wasn't really necessary to do so to fight Arianism. I believe that Mormons are getting the term consubstantial confused with the word substance, since they both obviously derive from the same Latin root. That doesn't mean that just because you can use 'substance' to describe various kinds of physical matter that when you read 'consubstantial' in the Creed it is also referring to physical matter. It's not. Heck, even in English there are plenty of ways to use 'substance' that don't refer to physical matter at all. Ever hear anyone argue about "the substance" of an argument? Unless they're mentally unbalanced, they're not claiming that the argument is made out of physical matter, because...well, that's just not what an argument is. That would be a basic misunderstanding of the word 'argument', just like Mormons are stuck on a basic misunderstanding of what the words homoousios and/or consubstantial mean.

There isn't really any other way to put it. You don't understand what the words involved mean, and I can explain them to you, but I can't understand them for you (as the saying goes). If my past interaction with Mormons on here is anything to go by, you're probably going to have to leave Mormonism (or find some other way to detach yourself from Mormon theology) to change that.
It seems like you are the only one on this thread that has a different meaning for "of the same substance".
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So you believe that Eve is in the likeness of the Father? Well good luck with that. Even Barbie and Ken are in the image of male and female.

He couldn't very well have made only males, He couldn't tell them to be fruitful and multiply, could He.
He'd just have had more angels. He wanted us to reproduce--He planned for everything on this planet to reproduce. The Jewish concept of God has already been explained to you several times. God is all that is male and all that is female. That is why the word El Shaddai is represented in ancient pictographs by breasts---He is the nourisher of all. The Jews had no problem with this---they never spoke of a wife/wives of the Father. The references to a heavenly mother are all of pagan gods---and God was not pleased with those Jews that worshiped other Gods and Asherah was a prominent one. Worship of a female goddess is strictly pagan.

However, The bible does speak of God having a wife, many of them, actually:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

In the OT Israel is often referred to as God's wife--usually as an adulteress wife. In the NT it is the New Jerusalem and the saved---and all will be at the marriage supper:

ev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,535
13,689
✟428,472.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
It seems like you are the only one on this thread that has a different meaning for "of the same substance".

We apparently have to wait for other Orthodox, Catholic, historically-informed Protestants, and others to show up, then.

And even if that were the case, what would it prove? Shouldn't a Mormon know better than to argue "You are outnumbered, therefore wrong"? (Even though, again, globally-speaking, I am not; the anti-Nicene types an extreme minority of very recent heretics.)

Besides, what I said about the usage of the words and the historical reality of how they were arrived at is factual, no matter who agrees or disagrees. You can look up for yourself the controversies surrounding Nicaea. I would recommend both the actual canons themselves, the page with the comparison of the 325 and 381 versions of the Creed (Nicene/"Niceno-Constantinopolitan", the latter being what is actually affirmed as this website's, and wider Christianity's, statement of faith) available at Wikipedia, and De Decretis, or as it is known in English "In Defense of the Decree (sometimes "Definition") of Nicaea" by HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, which is available at Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL) and other places.

In the Coptic tradition, anyway, HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic wrote the Creed himself while in attendance at Nicaea as the deacon-assistant to HH Pope Alexander of Alexandria, the Pope of the Egyptian Church at the time. So if anyone would know how the Creed should be understood in its particular terminology, he would.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: 1 person
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
What a baseless bunch of garbage assertion.
So what is the meaning of "of the same substance" dzheremi says it means of the same essence or divinity. So does that mean that those that become one with Jesus (as stated in the Bible) will also be of the same divinity? It must mean that or we wouldn't be able to be one with Him as He is one with the Father:

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
Upvote 0