Did we misunderstood Apostle Paul?

timewerx said:

The same would apply to us so it's actually critical we devote effort to study as much as we could concerning the period and Paul's background.

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We are called to study to show ourselves approved. Study includes context... and context is NOT the verse before and after (people actually believe that) but rather, ANYTHING that influences what is being said. So, Paul attended Beit Hillel... what did they teach? There was another school, Beit Shammai... what made them different than Hillel's teachings? These things matter, and so much more, matter because they effect context.

By the way folks... Beit Hillel was known to teach "the spirit of the letter" while beit Shammai was known to teach "the letter of the law." Paul's writings about the spirit or the letter.... come out of the difference between what these two schools believed and taught.

Ken Rank said:

It takes a willingness to study as well. Paul used throughout his writings what is known as "the Rule of Hillel." These are 7 context-affecting rules that we don't even know exist... we aren't taught them. Yet, Paul used them and once you can recognize them, in some cases, the context change is dramatic.

Paul also quotes or infers the OT far more often than most realize. And when he does, in most cases, he is using one of those rules I just mentioned. And that is, to bring into the NT writing the context from the chapter he is quoting from in the OT. So for an example... go read Romans 9:20-27. There he is quoting Hosea 1, Isaiah 10, and another source if memory serves. God read those chapters, not just the verse he quotes... and then take that context into Romans and see if, perhaps, he isn't saying what we have been raised to think he is saying.

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Hi Ken, I would be interested to know in which verses you believe that the context change is dramatic. Can you contrast for example what you believe the common understanding of those verses is and what you believe it to be. There is no secret here or secret knowledge. Education on the Rules of Hellel is available to anyone who invests the time and money to obtain it. Hillel's 7 Principles of Bible Interpretation

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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Whatever the Word of God Himself, and/or The Most High God say is the standard.

If Paul seemingly contradicts what the Most High God says, the Paul is wrong at best. No one is above the Word of God Himself, and The Father and the Son do not contradict each other, nor do they renege on their actions or promises - otherwise, The Most High God wouldn't have given everything to Him.

disciple Clint said:

Hi Ken, I would be interested to know in which verses you believe that the context change is dramatic. Can you contrast for example what you believe the common understanding of those verses is and what you believe it to be. There is no secret here or secret knowledge. Education on the Rules of Hellel is available to anyone who invests the time and money to obtain it. Hillel's 7 Principles of Bible Interpretation

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I think one of the better examples would be to read Romans 9... around verse 19 through 27. There, he is quoting Hosea 1, Isaiah 10 and other places and he is not doing so just to introduce a verse into his thought. The topics being discussed in the chapters he quotes plays right into what he is sharing from that point through chapter 11. It is very important and effects us more than we realize.

Here is a scholarly article written by Frank Houtz, a mentor and friend of mine. He not only explains the 7 rules, but gives examples for each and most come out of Paul's writings.

Blessings Clint.

timewerx said:

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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I seem to think the HS might have a significant role in our understanding of scripture as well.

Repeating the same outlandish statements over and over does not make them true or mainstream, it just makes them... repetitive.

It's actually a common tactic of politicians and bullies.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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You are not even giving mention to the fact that the Holy Spirit, the Counselor whom is sent to us upon our baptism, teaches us about all things. Because of this fact we can be very confident that the Word transcends all worldly obstacles like cultural differences, language and the like and it stands firm to the end as Jesus promises...He says My Word will never pass away...saying the Word is not this transcendent is same as saying it passes away.
Paul says we can clearly understand his writings...
II Corinthians 1:13-14:
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I John 2:26-28:
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The I John passages here are referring to the Holy Spirit...the fulfillment of the promise of Jesus...
John 14:25-26:
“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Finally I will remind you of the fact that we receive the Holy Spirit upon our Christian baptism...
Matthew 3:11:
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Have a feeling you simply needed reminding. : ) ...Hope so anyway

timewerx said:

So true!

Jesus compared the Kingdom of God to a priceless but buried treasure.

A buried treasure is something that is sought with all heart, mind, and strength. Not exactly an easy job for those who are unwilling to do it.

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Requires full attention and and great interest and yes, maybe some excitement..some are given more than others though...remember that parable...to he who is given much, much will be demanded. To he who is given little, little will be demanded.

Absolutely right. Personal interpretation of the Bible will always lead to misinterpretations and false beliefs. Which is why there are thousands of conflicting Protestant denominations, each of which came into existence in the past few hundred years, each claiming to follow "the Bible alone", yet the teaching of each denomination conflicting with the teaching of the others. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so obviously a great amount of untruth is being taught. As you said, Protestantism is in huge trouble. Which is why Jesus Christ founded only one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in biblical understanding, one in worship throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations. You just can't beat God's plan, and you suffer the consequences when you reject His plan, which was and still is "That they all may be ONE, even as I and my heavenly Father are ONE".

timewerx said:

With many denominations disagreeing in interpretation of scriptures against one another while all claiming to have the guidance of the HS.....

It only means:

1. They don't understand the HS.
2. They never had the HS.

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in a fallen state the HS is the constant, we are not. we see through a glass, darkly and often miss the mark.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

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I agree that Apostle Paul's teachings can be difficult to understand, and I know that you might disagree but haven't you considered that the issue is with the authority of whom is interpreting?

PaulCyp1 said:

Absolutely right. Personal interpretation of the Bible will always lead to misinterpretations and false beliefs. Which is why there are thousands of conflicting Protestant denominations, each of which came into existence in the past few hundred years, each claiming to follow "the Bible alone", yet the teaching of each denomination conflicting with the teaching of the others. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so obviously a great amount of untruth is being taught. As you said, Protestantism is in huge trouble. Which is why Jesus Christ founded only one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in biblical understanding, one in worship throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations. You just can't beat God's plan, and you suffer the consequences when you reject His plan, which was and still is "That they all may be ONE, even as I and my heavenly Father are ONE".

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"Bible Alone" should be considered a noble battle cry by Christians and never derided or decried by them. The reasons for so much splintering in Christendom has to do with different levels of maturity of the various groups. Sadly the Catholic church became very corrupt centuries ago and because for a long time they prevented their members from reading the Bile themselves...only the elite few peered into its precious pages...it remains only partially reformed.

timewerx said:

So true!

Jesus compared the Kingdom of God to a priceless but buried treasure.

A buried treasure is something that is sought with all heart, mind, and strength. Not exactly an easy job for those who are unwilling to do it.

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But that is not the point of the parable, because that is not the actual story.

The man 'finds' the hidden treasure then hides it again to go and sell all he has to buy the field where it was hidden. The point is not how hard it was to find it. But that when it's found you will have to give ALL you have to attain it. It wasn't about the seeking it was all about how much it would cost you to attain it.

timewerx said:

Apostle Peter said Paul's writings contains some things that are hard to understand - 2 Peter 3:16.

Even Apostle Paul himself said, his actions could be misunderstood by other Christians and cause them to stumble!! (1 Corinthians 8 - read whole chapter).

And obviously, we are thousands of years apart from Paul and considering his many other writings that are probably lost and never made it into the Bible. There's simply a lot of unknowns and also considering the cultural background of the period.

Finally, Paul won't be able explain himself all the time for practical reasons......All These makes it quite likely for us to misinterpret him....

If no one thinks what I'm saying holds any merit, Look around you. We have so many denominations divided over interpretation of scriptures. And these disagreements are mostly centered around Paul's teachings!

We all can't be right with many differing, often contradicting understanding of scriptures against one another.

"Fortunately" we can understand Paul correctly. But this requires a more careful, unbiased approach, and more extensive study of scriptures. An effort that the vast majority of Christians are unwilling to devote. Unless this changes, then Christianity is in huge trouble.

Click to expand...

You will find that divisions occur because people base their doctrine on sometimes just one or two verses in the scripture.

Also, people for some reason develop doctrine from the accounts of the life of Jesus (the gospels).

The safest method for developing doctrine is reading Paul's letters very carefully. After all Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

timewerx said:

I have no intention of running for office so I can bully anyone. Not my kind of thing. Nu uh.

There are many things that doesn't make sense in our religion like the claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit but then we are divided in our understanding of scriptures.

It just doesn't make sense.

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It is prophecy that many will say they did wonders in the name of the Word of God, and He will say, "depart from me; I never knew you."

There are not nearly as many Christians that claim to be so.