The Flood - If even Christians don't believe what Jesus said, why should non-believers??

lifepsyop said:

When a Christian says that entire books in the Bible are just made-up stories of events that didn't really happen.... the world rejoices. See? Christians don't even believe this stuff, why should I take sin seriously? Why do I need a savior? I'm not going to be judged... God's judgment is just a story to make people be good. Even Christians don't believe all that fire and brimstone stuff.

So while you congratulate yourselves on being "reasonable Christians".. I hope you think about the countless numbers of people who just see Christians admitting that their holy scriptures are just a collection of myths and moral teachings, nothing to be considered as an absolute truth.

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Thank you for pointing this out. It's sad to see Christians not believing in the historical accuracy of the Bible, and treat everything as a metaphor.

2PhiloVoid said:

Again, you're grossly misrepresenting some of us who take a more existential, post-modern type path to understanding our faith in Christ. You've written us off BEFORE you've dug deep to comprehend why and what we're even saying.

Fortunately, my "brand" of Christian faith does not impel me to attempt to identify my Fundamentalist Christian brethren as White Washed Tombs or some other kind of inauthentic entities through overextended language. No, as far as Christ-like charity will allow me, I accept you as a brother (or sister?) in the Body of Christ. It would be nice if you could return the favor.

It might also benefit us all if you could learn something about Hermeneutics and the Philosophy of History, then you might begin to have an insight into why I parse the contents of the Bible the way I do ... of course, I know that might be asking a lot of some of you.

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In short ..you ask him to throw away Gods word as the absolute truth to be sccepted with childlike faith
In order to accomodate your post-modern ( means doctrines that niether Jesus nor the apostles taught or even suggested in pre modern times) views...
No i think he (and i join him) will hold to the old paths and the Straight narrow way. And throw out carnal minded reasonings .And trust in the Holy Spirits teachings .

ChicanaRose said:

Thank you for pointing this out. It's sad to see Christians not believing in the historical accuracy of the Bible, and treat everything as a metaphor.

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it is sad... The same serpant in the garden ..still saying " Did God say.......? " always casting the waters of doubt on the embers of faith..

Alithis said:

In short ..you ask him to throw away Gods word as the absolute truth to be sccepted with childlike faith
In order to accomodate your post-modern ( means doctrines that niether Jesus nor the apostles taught or even suggested in pre modern times) views...
No i think he (and i join him) will hold to the old paths and the Straight narrow way. And throw out carnal minded reasonings .And trust in the Holy Spirits teachings .

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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't ask anyone to "throw away God's Word." What I did was suggest that we, as Christians, be more mindful of how we handle our reading and interpretation (i.e. Hermeneutics) of the Bible. But apparently, that is asking a lot from a number of fellow Christians these days ...

But more succinctly, it probably would be better if you assess the validity of your judgement of fellow Christians like myself before playing the "heretic card."

myst33 said:

For this is concealed from them willingly, that heavens existed long ago and the earth, having been composed out of water and through water, by the word of God, through which the world at that time perished, having been deluged with water.
2 Peter 3:5-6, Berean Literal Bible

So, Peter is basically saying that some people deny that heavens are old and that the first world perished through waters.

I know of only one group denying that heavens (universe) are old - the YEC proponents.

And local/regional flood does not contradict that the first world perished. Its only your wrong comprehension that by the "world" he meant the whole planet.

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Jesus referred to God warning a man in advance of a coming disaster by asking him to prepare a boat for his own rescue. This theme of God's omnipotence is important whether a flood actually reached the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey or not. Nor does Jesus' speach confirm that tens of thousands of species could fit into a little boat, nor that there ever was so large a flood, nor that it ever rained 40 days straight over the entire earth. Jesus merely stuck with the Old Testament teachings that God is almighty, omnipotent (all knowing) and powerful to save a people sometimes, while many other people went about their sinful lives in ignorance of the truth.

2PhiloVoid said:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't ask anyone to "throw away God's Word." What I did was suggest that we, as Christians, be more mindful of how we handle our reading and interpretation (i.e. Hermeneutics) of the Bible. But apparently, that is asking a lot from a number of fellow Christians these days ...

But more succinctly, it probably would be better if you assess the validity of your judgement of fellow Christians like myself before playing the "heretic card."

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Wow..peoples misplaced faith in the carnal minded methods of hermeneutics is shameful.

Alithis said:

Wow..peoples misplaced faith in the carnal minded methods of hermeneutics is shameful.

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So, would I be correct in understanding you to mean that because we have God, the Holy Spirit, we have no need to study the Scriptures or to be mentored, or preached to, by other Christians?

2PhiloVoid said:

So, would I be correct in understanding you to mean that because we have God, the Holy Spirit, we have no need to study the Scriptures or to be mentored, or preached to, by other Christians?

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Yes, we simply need to take the "plain" reading of scripture without actually giving further thought or consideration to the matter. So the Bible says creation in 6 days that must be a week of consecutive days though that is not clearly stated. Nowhere in the Bible is the term "creation week" to be found. It might also be noted that each day begins with the very same structure “And God said, ...” however the command is not always directed to immediate completion but through agency – mediate creation. For example Genesis does not say "Let there be living creatures..." or "Let there be vegetation..." but quite plainly the command/fiat is to the land or water. Evidently we are to merge the command with what is plainly the parenthetical that follows...or perhaps one might give critical thought to what is implied by a "plain" reading.

lifepsyop said:

What about the Genesis flood? The whole narrative plainly reads as an account of specific times and events, as if we are reading a newscast. Are you going to give us your sophisticated explanation for why we should instead interpret it as an allegorical fantasy?

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"Sophisticated explanation?" ... perhaps just as a plain reading of the creation account in Genesis is open to interpretation so is the Flood account with associated passages. If one takes the time to investigate the Biblical use of kol erets or kol ha aretz then a more informed understanding of the flood being local emerges as a distinct possibility. It is evident throughout scripture that such terms are typically local in reference to geography whereas global when in reference to people. Psalm 104 is interesting too, is it not? Why would a local flood, an old earth/universe, or God's use of evolutionary processes outright revoke theology/salvation?

lifepsyop said:

By your standard of "open to interpretation", practically anything would be open to any interpretation. Anything could mean anything. Nothing about the Genesis flood account reads as local, and practically everything about its desription reads as worldwide in scope and effect.

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That is your opinion, and many others hold a different opinion. We are specifically talking about the flood, and a reference was made to Gen. 1...no need for one to go to extremes. As has been pointed out to you there exist interpretations of Gen. 1 and the Flood fully based on scripture and quite well defended. It is difficult to appreciate other well reasoned Biblically based interpretations/perspectives when one is unwilling to honestly make use of a fresh set of prayerful eyes and mind.

lifepsyop said:

Do you just want it to be a local flood so you can harmonize the account with a secular/evolutionary version of history?

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That is a rather preposterous statement...are you of the mind that anyone who disagrees with you is simply being subservient to "secular/evolutionary" history? I gave you a brief glimpse of Gen. 1 in a plain reading, and as noted time and again Theologians and Apologists disagree on the Flood. Consider Romans 1:20 within God's general revelation along with the simple fact that to know anything of God or scripture requires reason. You attempt to demonize science yet every day of ours lives we are immersed in the discoveries and practical applications from science. There is a distinction between scientific knowledge and the metaphysical assumptions that many secular scientists attempt to promulgate. One should be able to distinguish between them.

lifepsyop said:

Salvation is by the blood of Jesus Christ, not what we believe about Earth's history, but how many non-believers will be turned away from salvation because they see Christians who don't even believe the words they claim are given to them by God?

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It has been my experience that many non-believers when shown Gen. 1 or the Flood with rational exegesis tend to have their smirk removed. It seems the fundamental stumbling block is the existence of God, that is a starting point.

lifepsyop said:

You don't think non-believers see the mental gymnastics that Christian compromisers perform to try and change clear Biblical accounts of history into "metaphors" and "allegories" ? "See? I'm a reasonable Christian! I don't believe all this stuff in the Bible either! ... Now let me tell you about Jesus!"

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What I see is non-believers hold the Bible and believers in ridicule for believing the earth is 6,000 years old and that humans walked with the dinosaurs like the flintstones. I personally believe in the Bible as do myriad others who disagree with you. You seem to have difficulty accepting that one can believe "all the stuff" in Bible but hold a different opinion than yours... I confess I don't know all things so I try not to be so tightly tethered to questionable beliefs. Can you show me where exactly I stated that the Biblical accounts are "metaphors" and "allegories"? Can you explain how it is that there exist uninterrupted histories of civilizations at the time of the flood? You believe that dinosaurs were on the ark? As for Genesis 1 can you explain God's command to the land to produce living creatures?

lifepsyop said:

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

- 1 Corinthians 15:19-22

Jesus Christ is The Word, The Beginning and the End. He is the answer to sin and death that we are presented with in the foundation of God's word in Genesis.

Jesus himself testifies that the flood in Genesis was a real event, a real judgment, as a real as his second coming would be.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. " - Matthew 24:36-39

This is GOD IN THE FLESH giving us a history lesson. And we as believers are going to deny it?

We're going to say he didn't know what he was talking about?
Or that he was lying about history to get a point across?
Or are we to treat Jesus' second coming as a mythological fable, just like we treat Genesis?

Anything but just accepting that Jesus was telling the truth, right?

Because if we believe Jesus' own words about history, then our peers might laugh at us. We might lose social acceptance in the world. Could anything be more horrible than that?

And what does this lack of faith do to the unbeliever?

When a Christian says that entire books in the Bible are just made-up stories of events that didn't really happen.... the world rejoices. See? Christians don't even believe this stuff, why should I take sin seriously? Why do I need a savior? I'm not going to be judged... God's judgment is just a story to make people be good. Even Christians don't believe all that fire and brimstone stuff.

So while you congratulate yourselves on being "reasonable Christians".. I hope you think about the countless numbers of people who just see Christians admitting that their holy scriptures are just a collection of myths and moral teachings, nothing to be considered as an absolute truth.

How many multitudes turn away from Jesus before even hearing? After all, you don't even believe the stuff in that book. I've heard and seen it all my life.

So go ahead and compromise with the theories of man.

As for me, I trust that God did what he said he did. I believe what Jesus said.

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His used division to elect His people since it is what we use to lead them astray. Just like one divides wheat and chaff, He does the same before Judgment. These people must exist, but everyone chooses their role yo play.

Jesus said.. if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Millions of millions were are blind. Salvation is not based on .... do you believe all the word of God..... Its John 3 16-17 Rom 10 9-10. The thief.. we dont know his life.. he might have or might not have believed anything.. but he knew.. that man on that cross did nothing.. and saw believed.. remember me. It was.. call on the name of the lord ...it was who so ever believes. Thats the door.

See we forget one thing. JESUS IS REAL! I just heard a story yesterday.. a man in the Iraq war..when that leader was still there. That man killed people never gave it a second thought. But .. he kept having for 7 years dreams about Jesus. He is saved now. JESUS IS REAL! Its like Peter and John at the gate called beautiful. After the "we dont have silver or gold" they told the people.. why do you look at us as if we under our own power did this. its FAITH in that NAME"

Jesus said..who so ever.. He said.. if you ask the Father IN MY NAME.. You ask me anything. He said.. IN MY NAME cast out demons.. etc. That NAME...not just a name. There is as the song says.. POWER POWER wonder working power... in the NAME OF JESUS! Jesus is REAL! So be the FLOOD lets say.. was local..as SOME believe or world wide.. not a saving thing... its not one must believe the whole word all the stories..

I will say this. If in what SOME believe.. people are here when the Antichrist is out in the open doing lying wonders. So many will be deceived. How will they know? They will have nothing. What.. they never believed.. that silly book.. you know with all the cute stories. They will easily be deceived. So as much as I want to disagree.. I do agree.

lifepsyop said:

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

- 1 Corinthians 15:19-22

Jesus Christ is The Word, The Beginning and the End. He is the answer to sin and death that we are presented with in the foundation of God's word in Genesis.

Jesus himself testifies that the flood in Genesis was a real event, a real judgment, as a real as his second coming would be.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. " - Matthew 24:36-39

This is GOD IN THE FLESH giving us a history lesson. And we as believers are going to deny it?

We're going to say he didn't know what he was talking about?
Or that he was lying about history to get a point across?
Or are we to treat Jesus' second coming as a mythological fable, just like we treat Genesis?

Anything but just accepting that Jesus was telling the truth, right?

Because if we believe Jesus' own words about history, then our peers might laugh at us. We might lose social acceptance in the world. Could anything be more horrible than that?

And what does this lack of faith do to the unbeliever?

When a Christian says that entire books in the Bible are just made-up stories of events that didn't really happen.... the world rejoices. See? Christians don't even believe this stuff, why should I take sin seriously? Why do I need a savior? I'm not going to be judged... God's judgment is just a story to make people be good. Even Christians don't believe all that fire and brimstone stuff.

So while you congratulate yourselves on being "reasonable Christians".. I hope you think about the countless numbers of people who just see Christians admitting that their holy scriptures are just a collection of myths and moral teachings, nothing to be considered as an absolute truth.

How many multitudes turn away from Jesus before even hearing? After all, you don't even believe the stuff in that book. I've heard and seen it all my life.

So go ahead and compromise with the theories of man.

As for me, I trust that God did what he said he did. I believe what Jesus said.

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For me , one of the lessons and the very sobering part of both the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is the fact that most everyone was dead the day before both events but were not aware . Had they had the faith of Noah ( who being moved by fear built an ark ) they would been helping Noah .


They were buying and selling , building and planting , marrying and giving in marriage . If they had known God , they should have been aware of the amount of rebellion against Him . It is not unlike today . I am sorely afraid that many are walking around dead .

Which brings up a question . Which political party could have stopped the flood in Noah's Day ? Neither ..get in the ark ( Christ Jesus ) .

lifepsyop said:

I have thought about this as well. Believing the creation and flood accounts are not matters of salvation, but if you're willing to abandon God's words over peer pressure and the wisdom of men, what other deceptions are you opening yourself up to in the future? Particularly the mass delusions spoken of in Revelation. A scary thought.

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Then again one might consider that a particular and narrow view of both Genesis 1 and the Flood are simply incorrect. Positing disagreement as the abandonment of God's word is quite disingenuous. I've posed to you several questions and am waiting for a response....