Is Salvation not good enough?

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Grip Docility

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To Everyone Here:

Do believers always sin? Do believers always fall short of the glory of God as mentioned in Romans 3:23 (or missing the Mark as some call it)?

First, Paul is referring to accepting Jesus in Romans 3. He is referring to how we have all sinned at one point in our past life, and the only way to get saved is to have faith in Jesus Christ and believe in His death and resurrection. This is the process of Justification. This is where salvation starts.

How is the interpretation correct? Well, because if one believes that Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is talking about the present tense walk of a believer (and not exclusively their past life before they became a believer), then one must also read Romans 3:11 in this way. Meaning, if a person believes they are sinning Christian in the present tense based on Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then they must also believe that they are without understanding and they do not seek after God currently according to Romans 3:11.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

Second, not all sins lead unto death.

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​


Three, while believers do have the power to overcome grievous sin, believers have been known to sin on occasion, and they can confess of their sins to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9). For John says to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). Jesus says to two people to sin no more (See: John 5:14, and John 8:11).

Please keep in mind that I am not perfect, and I do need God's grace and forgiveness as the next person and that I have stumbled on occasion. But God's grace is not a means to continue in sin, but it is a means to overcome grievous sin. What is grievous sin? I will explain this in my next post.


Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

James 2:10 ; Matthew 12:31 (The context of Matthew 12:31 is enormously important)

We fail.
Jesus Doesn't
 
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chilehed

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I'm not @His student

I simply answered one of your posts.
Indeed, I missed that! I apologise. However, it seems to me that when you inserted yourself into the conversation, appearing to agree with what he had said, you took on some obligation to answer for it. Are you now saying that he was wrong?

You did say
What I mean is that anyone who reduces the Cross of Christ as NonSalvic.
And that flatly contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church as well, as shown in the passages I cited (among many others). For example, Catechism of the Catholic Church - Jesus Died Crucified
 
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thecolorsblend

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Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace
I know you mean well but when you post things like this, it sends a very wrong message.

For example, God forbids adultery. There are atheists out there who have never and would never commit adultery.

God also forbids murder. There are Hindus who would never dream of committing murder.

Trust me on this, they read posts along the lines of what I quoted above and the message that they take away is they don’t need to believe in Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross because they’re already living a pretty moral lifestyle.

Just throwing this out there.
 
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His student

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........... My intention was simply to enlighten those who may confuse the Roman Church with the apostolic Catholic Church so they might not confuse the two.
Very well then.

I hope I'm understanding that you consider Protestants (like say Baptists or Calvinists - assuming their religion is personal between them and God) to be in the apostolic Catholic Church. Is that correct or do you mean by that term the Orthodox branch of Christianity?
 
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John 4:34 is Jesus saying that is His work. The commandments of God are to Love Him and our Neighbor.

By tying up heavy burdens of the Law of Sin on peoples backs, thy neighbor is being Hated. People can say they are saying one thing, then say another. This is why people are called duplicitous that are weak in faith. It's either Jesus saves, or a person Saves themselves. No in-between.

I have and always will proclaim.. To God Alone, be the Glory.

God alone does get the glory if we allow Him to work through our life to live holy and do good works (after we are saved by His grace). But if one sins and or justifies sin, God does not get the glory in our life, unless of course you think God can agree with an immoral plan of salvation that makes room for the believer to declare they will commit grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) as a matter of fact on some level. But how can God agree with sin? He cannot. God is holy, righteous, and good. That is what you don't understand. That is why I prefer not to directly reply to the majority of what you write.
 
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I know you mean well but when you post things like this, it sends a very wrong message.

For example, God forbids adultery. There atheists out there who have never and would never commit adultery.

God also forbids murder. There are Hindus who would never dream of committing murder.

Trust me on this, they read posts along the lines of what I quoted above and the message that they take away is they don’t need to believe in Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross because they’re already living a pretty moral lifestyle.

Just throwing this out there.

So are you saying that you don't believe a person needs to be first saved by God's grace through faith?

If so, what about Ephesians 2:8-9?
 
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One of the central tenants of the Protestant Reformation was total depravity. It seems that concept is being rejected.

So you are saying that believers are still totally depraved after they are saved by God's grace?
Meaning, you think believers are still living the same old lifestyle of sin like they used to be?
 
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Grip Docility

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Indeed, I missed that! I apologise. However, it seems to me that when you inserted yourself into the conversation, appearing to agree with what he had said, you took on some obligation to answer for it. Are you now saying that he was wrong?

You did say And that flatly contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church as well, as shown in the passages I cited (among many others). For example, Catechism of the
Catholic Church - Jesus Died Crucified

I owe you an apology... chilehed...

My intention was to recognize that Denominational Catholicism rarely reduces the Cross as "partially" or "insufficiently" salvic, as is the case in Protestantism, as well.

My intended point was to point out that within Catholicism and Protestantism... (Sometimes entire denominational Factions that arise)... are that there are people and factions, that arise, that are Anathema... and more so in the manner that some people within all Denominations of the globe take it upon themselves to declare the Cross as "Partially" Salvic. Which again is Anathema.

Please forgive my lack of explanation, of my intended statement meaning, when I interjected.
 
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Grip Docility

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So you are saying that believers are still totally depraved after they are saved by God's grace?
Meaning, you think believers are still living the same old lifestyle of sin like they used to be?

Ugggggg..... 1 John 1:8 isn't a joke!

So you're saying that the closer a person is drawn to God, the more Righteous their flesh becomes!

Jason, it either all comes from Jesus or it doesn't. Which is it?

A person is either PERFECT or they still FAIL. No in-between. You're trying to set standards and limit the Cross.

Preach the TRUE GOSPEL we are all commissioned to PREACH and let GOD sort the rest out.
 
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His student

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Revisiting an earlier post:
The Catechism section I directed you to flatly contradicts what you said...........
I read that section to say that to be "fully incorporated" one must accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization and her sacraments.

But I also read that section to say that baptism is necessary to be incorporated in any way for salvation in the basic sense. Did I read that wrong?

I also read that one who does not continue in love is not saved. That's vague enough that it could mean just about anything like my posting against Roman Catholicism in this forum. Did I get that wrong?
 
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Very well then.

I hope I'm understanding that you consider Protestants (like say Baptists or Calvinists - assuming their religion is personal between them and God) to be in the apostolic Catholic Church. Is that correct or do you mean by that term the Orthodox branch of Christianity?

Those who are in Christ and Christ is in them, they are the apostolic Catholic Church regardless of what denomination they are.
 
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W2L

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I know you mean well but when you post things like this, it sends a very wrong message.

For example, God forbids adultery. There atheists out there who have never and would never commit adultery.

God also forbids murder. There are Hindus who would never dream of committing murder.

Trust me on this, they read posts along the lines of what I quoted above and the message that they take away is they don’t need to believe in Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross because they’re already living a pretty moral lifestyle.

Just throwing this out there.
The scriptures say we are all guilty of breaking the whole law.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Please see my OP. By fullness of truth, they mean "through the Catholic church."

The Catholic Church is the apostlic Church of God. The name “Catholic” was adopted some time between 107AD and 180AD. We can see evidence of this thru the early church writings. In 107 Ignatius wrote to the Smyrnaeans still calling the church by name the Church of God but later in the same writing describes the church as being Catholic “universal” in nature. In 180 Iranaeus mentions the church by name as the Catholic Church in his writing Adversus Haereses. So if someone said “I hope you come to the full understanding of the truth of God’s Word thru the Catholic Church” I would agree with the statement. If they implied that it is thru the Roman Catholic Church I would as kindly as possible correct them and explain the history of the Roman and Catholic Church. Most people don’t know much about it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Bear with my tongue and cheek, please...

I would say that said Christian that went to said strip club still has their salvation in tact, but has surrendered their human dignity by paying to see naked women!

If anyone should be paid for being naked it should be me!

I would say said Christian most likely surrendered a large sum of funds for a ridiculous purpose and the illusion of human companionship, that is in women that profess interest merely to empty pockets and wallets.

I would say the sense of worthlessness, depression and regret that will walk with said Christian as they deal with the fact that they paid to see a girl naked, and were suckered into wasting their money is only the beginning of the natural chastising that they will receive, over time.

I would say the poverty that follows said Christians choice is a direct result of their stupidity.

I would say that said christian may even judge the very girls they are paying to see.

I would say said christian is wasting precious gospel time, unless they went there to selflessly witness, which is highly unlikely. :p

I would say said Christian needs to get a life, a girlfriend and a sense of reality.

I would say said Christian needs to look for real experiences, instead of artificial ones.

I would say said Christian may be beyond the help of God if he is married and said Christian's wife finds out! :D

I would say said Christian needs to read Matthew 7.
 
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Grip Docility

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The Catholic Church is the apostlic Church of God. The name “Catholic” was adopted some time between 107AD and 180AD. We can see evidence of this thru the early church writings. In 107 Ignatius wrote to the Smyrnaeans still calling the church by name the Church of God but later in the same writing describes the church as being Catholic “universal” in nature. In 180 Iranaeus mentions the church by name as the Catholic Church in his writing Adversus Haereses. So if someone said “I hope you come to the full understanding of the truth of God’s Word thru the Catholic Church” I would agree with the statement. If they implied that it is thru the Roman Catholic Church I would as kindly as possible correct them and explain the history of the Roman and Catholic Church. Most people don’t know much about it.

:D
giphy.gif
 
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I will do what you will not do.
I will explain the verses.

You said:
2 Peter 3:16

Sorry, I beat you to it on quoting 2 Peter 3:16; Either that or you are copying me again. Anyways, in my defense of quoting 2 Peter 3:16, I provided a ton of verses using 8 points proving why Paul was speaking as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 (and not as a Christian) (See Post #211).

In fact, your belief in no way is supported by your quoting of 2 Peter 3:16.
Try going back to the previous chapter and re-read it.
For if a person were to read 2 Peter 2 carefully, they will notice that Peter talks about false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1, and then he mentions how these false teachers are identified in the fact that they do not cease from sin (2 Peter 2:14).
How exactly does a sin and still be saved belief work if Peter condemned those for doing so?

You said:
Romans 4:15

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15).

What Law is Paul referring to?
All law?
Or the 613 Old Testament laws from the Law of Moses?
I would say it was the Old Law because Paul is referring to circumcision in the previous chapter (See: Romans 3:1).

Paul said elsewhere that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul mentioned that there is a Law called: The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus in Romans 8:2.
Is that the Law of Moses?
Or is that a New Covenant Law?
Does this Law not include walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin)? (See Romans 8:1).

Also, why does the Law work wrath?
It's because you could be physically killed for disobeying the Old Testament Law of Moses.
This is not the case in the New Covenant.
The law of the land is supposed to judge men and not God's people.

You said:
Romans 10:3

This is clearly talking about the Law of Moses, because the context is in reference to Israel (See Romans 10:1). The Israelites followed the Old Law and not the laws by Jesus and His followers. But of course you have to take verses like this out of context to make your belief work here.

You said:
Hebrews 4:16

And if you were to skip back a chapter (Hebrews 3), you would realize that a person can harden their hearts by the deceitfulness of sin and thereby depart from the living God by doing so (See Hebrews 3:12-14).

You said:
Galatians 6:2

A person is only to be restored back if they follow the protocol in James 5:19-20.
If a believer is to struggle with sin, they are to confess of that sin and other believers can pray for that believer to overcome their grievous sin (See 1 John 5:16-17).
This is what it means to bear one another's burdens.

But my guess is you have no idea what these passages even say.
For passages like these have to go either ignored or changed in your belief.

You said:
1 Peter 4:8

First, how can love cover a multitude of sins if all future sin is paid for by having a belief in Jesus.
Second, skip back up to 1 Peter 4:1-2.
Verse 1 essentially says that the person who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (Note: I believe this is referring to grievous sin). Verse 2 says we are not to live the rest of the time here on Earth to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.

You said:
2 Peter 2:20

Skip back up and read the context. In verse 14, it says they have eyes full of adultery, and they cannot cease from sin. Do you just skip passed verses like 2 Peter 2:14?

You said:
Galatians 3
Ephesians 2

Both of these chapters are talking about the Justification Process and they are not talking about the Sanctification Process that follows Justification. For it is clear that Ephesians 2 is talking about "Initial Salvation" because Ephesians 2:1 talks about how we are quickened. Believers are quickened one time. Ephesians 2:8 talks about how we are saved by God's grace through faith is like a gift. Gifts are received one time. Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith.

Galatians 3 is also talking about "Initial Salvation" because the "Law" (the Old Law) was a school master to bring us unto Christ. The Old Law was never for the Gentiles but it was only for the nation of Israel. Granted, the Gentiles by nature sometimes obeyed the Moral Law within the Old Law (See Romans 2). So the Moral Law shows a person that they have broken it, and they need a Savior. Again, this would be "Initial Salvation" because the Old Law was a means to pointing us to Christ so as to receive Him.
 
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Grip Docility

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I know you mean well but when you post things like this, it sends a very wrong message.

For example, God forbids adultery. There atheists out there who have never and would never commit adultery.

God also forbids murder. There are Hindus who would never dream of committing murder.

Trust me on this, they read posts along the lines of what I quoted above and the message that they take away is they don’t need to believe in Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross because they’re already living a pretty moral lifestyle.

Just throwing this out there.

YES!!!! This feels wonderful! Full agreement! <3

 
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Hopefully, if said Christian is married and their wife finds out... they live to read Matthew 7. :D

If so he might be reading it in the doghouse. My advice would be don’t eat anything she cooks and don’t sleep anywhere where she knows your at. Lol
 
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