Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

Did event of Israel 1948 fulfill any Bible prophecy?


  • Total voters
    73
Status
Not open for further replies.

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What does James claim is the substitute for grace?

James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

The point is that we need material goods (money mainly) in addition to grace to properly carry out a charitable ministry. Of course if one is the recipient of such charity 'grace' is entirely 'sufficient'.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The point is that we need material goods (money mainly) in addition to grace to properly carry out a charitable ministry. Of course if one is the recipient of such charity 'grace' is entirely 'sufficient'.

Are our souls saved by material goods?

Or by grace?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Are our souls saved by material goods?

Or by grace?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So it's "be warmed and fed" but without the garments and food?
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What does history reveal?

That the apostles all taught inerrant truth.
Our duty is merely to accept their teaching, regardless of whether or not if fits how we want things to be.

Our duty is NOT to hold up non-apostolic, extrabiblical, fallible testimony in an attempt to disprove apostolic writ that does not conform to our paradigm.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,672
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,055.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Still waiting for you to show how the events of 2 Samuel 22 “happened”, Even though you believe that stands as fulfilled...
2 Samuel 22:8-16 and Psalms 18:7-15 are the same prophecy. It remains to be fulfilled, as nothing like what is described has happened yet.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,672
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,055.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Isaiah 30
30 And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
31 For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
Assyria is used metaphorically, just as Babylon is in Revelation 18.
It refers to a strong people, who try to conquer Israel, today the Islamic peoples, who will be beaten down by the fire of the Lord's anger.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Is it garments or food that save your soul?

Or is it grace?

I want to be one who is able help others, not be helped by others.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That the apostles all taught inerrant truth.
Our duty is merely to accept their teaching, regardless of whether or not if fits how we want things to be.

Our duty is NOT to hold up non-apostolic, extrabiblical, fallible testimony in an attempt to disprove apostolic writ that does not conform to our paradigm.

I agree, but we disagree on what they taught.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree, but we disagree on what they taught.
Apparently Not:

OldWiseGuy:
John thought the end was imminent.

Parousia70:
I agree.

Our Disagreement is not on what he taught (as you see we both agree) rather, our disagreement seems to be whether or not John was Correct in this belief/teaching.

I say he was, you say he was not.

I'm confident that MY side that affirms the inerrancy of apostolic teaching has the stronger argument than YOUR side that says the apostles taught error and falsehoods, holding up the fallible testimony of later, uninspired men as support for your claims of apostolic error.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
2 Samuel 22:8-16 and Psalms 18:7-15 are the same prophecy. It remains to be fulfilled, as nothing like what is described has happened yet.

Rather, 2 Samuel 22:8-16 is the prophet David's description of his victory over Saul when King Saul and his kingdom were destroyed and David became King.

Fulfilled.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Apparently Not:

OldWiseGuy:
It appears that John thought the end was imminent.

Parousia70:
I agree.

Our Disagreement is not on what he taught (as you see we both agree) rather, our disagreement seems to be whether or not John was Correct in this belief/teaching.

I say he was, you say he was not.

I'm confident that MY side that affirms the inerrancy of apostolic teaching has the stronger argument than YOUR side that says the apostles taught error and falsehoods, and holds up the fallible testimony of later, uninspired men for support.

We disagree about what John meant. You seem to believe he meant an imminent end. I believe that some parts were to be fulfilled soon, but the main theme was the end time, the distant future. History reveals that indeed those visions were for a much later time. Also, did John himself comprehend all that he was seeing in the vision?

Also recall that Jesus had to caution all the disciples that the end wasn't as near as they believed or may have wanted. Did this belief show up in their writings?

In short John wrote what he saw. History will reveal what was meant.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Assyria is used metaphorically, just as Babylon is in Revelation 18.
It refers to a strong people, who try to conquer Israel, today the Islamic peoples, who will be beaten down by the fire of the Lord's anger.

Metaphorically???!!!!! Gasp!!!

May that word never cross a literalite's keyboard.

If Assyria is metaphorical, then why isn't the Lord's fire and everything else metaphorical as well?

Whatever people it refers to, their genome is ubiquitous in the entire population of planet earth, as is that of Jewry and every other ancient race.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

It therefore includes you and me.

Get ready for incineration, along with everyone else.

There'll be no one left.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We disagree about what John meant. You seem to believe he meant an imminent end.

That's what YOU said YOU believed..
Are you backpedaling on that now?

I believe that some parts were to be fulfilled soon,

Can you name a few "parts" that you believe were fulfilled in their day?

Even Just one or two?

but the main theme was the end time, the distant future.

How exactly is the main theme of "little children it is the last Hour... and many antichrists have come by which we know is the last hour" ...the distant future?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Aren't you somewhat off topic? Weren't you talking about Joseph's birthright?

I was responding to the grace tangent. Although the birthright is connected to that topic as we were discussing it.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
OldWiseGuy said:
Ezekiel 37 is clearly the second resurrection that takes place in the millennium.
LittleLambofJesus said:
When's the 1st one?
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Paul and James both use the same word #3952 as used in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.

That word always intrigued me because of the fact it is used only in 4 verses of the entire Gospels........all in Matt 24.

A thread from on it from 2007 [it is closed because of "age"]
[I also have other threads on it and may create a new one]

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament
May 17, 2007


Chickapee said:
Hi Little Lamb ,,great thoughts !
I was reading this again and was wondering if the same WORDS parousia , coming 22 times and ''presence'' 2 times was what your getting ?
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
and if you believe that this event a ''personal '' or'' Individual '''' return of Christ , like I do or if its a massive and all together return as some tend to believe ?
thanks bro!
i love this thread , makes me think ;) hee hee
peace and Gods love .........Chicka

1 Corinthians 15:
23 and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end<5056>, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be?
and what the sign of Thy Parousia<3952> and full-end<4930<5055>> of the Age?
Mark 13
4 Tell us! when these shall be?and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931<5055>>.
Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher! when then shall these be? And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

James 5:8

be ye patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
=================================
G3952 (NKJV)

TR Occurrences 24x in 4 unique form(s)
παρουσία — 6x
παρουσίᾳ — 9x
παρουσίαν — 3x
παρουσίας — 6x

παρουσία — 6x
Parsing: Nominative Feminine Singular

Parousia <3952>

Matthew 24:27, 37, 39;
2 Corinthians 10:10
2 Thessalonians 2:9

James 5:8

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

EXEGETICAL (ORIGINAL LANGUAGES)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The sign of thy coming.—Literally, of Thy presence. The passage is memorable as the first occurrence of the word (παρονσία, parousia), which was so prominent in the teaching of the Epistles (1Thessalonians 2:19; 1Thessalonians 3:13; James 5:7; 1John 2:28, et al.). They had brought themselves to accept the thought of His departure and return, though time and manner were as yet hidden from them.

Meyer's NT Commentary

τῆς σῆς παρουσίας] After his repeated intimations of future suffering and death, the disciples could not conceive of the advent of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; in the Gospels peculiar to Matthew) to set up His kingdom and make a permanent stay in any other way than as a solemn second coming.

After His resurrection they expected the Risen One straightway to set up His kingdom (Acts 1:6),—a very natural expectation when we bear in mind that the resurrection was an unlooked-for event; but, after the ascension, their hopes were directed, in accordance with the express promises of Jesus, to the coming from heaven, which they believed was going to take place ere long, Acts 1:11; Acts 3:20 f., al., and the numerous passages in the New Testament Epistles. Comp. Wittichen in the Jahrb. f. Deutsche Theol. 1862, p. 354 ff. Observe, too, the emphatic σῆς coming after the general expression ταῦτα.

καὶ συντελ. τοῦ αἰῶνος] In the Gospels we find no trace of the millenarian ideas of the Apocalypse. The τοῦ αἰῶνος, with the article, but not further defined, is to be understood as referring to the existing, the then current age of the world, i.e. to the αἰὼν οὗτος, which is brought to a close (συντέλεια) with the second coming, inasmuch as, with this latter event, the αἰὼν μέλλων begins. See on Matthew 13:39.

The second coming, the resurrection and the last judgment, fall upon the ἐσχάτη ἡμέρα (John 6:39; John 11:24), which, as it will be the last day of the αἰὼν οὗτος in general, so of the ἐσχάτων ἡμερῶν (Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Jam 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3) in particular, or of the καιρὸς ἔσχατος (1 Peter 1:5), or of the χρόνος ἔσχατος (Judges 1:18; 1 Peter 1:20), which John likewise calls the ἐσχάτη ὥρα (1 John 2:18).
This concluding period, which terminates with the last day, is to be characterized by abounding distress and wickedness (see on Galatians 1:4). The article was unnecessary before συντελείας, seeing that it is followed by the genitive of specification; Winer, p. 118 f. [E. T. 155].

Pulpit Commentary

Sign of thy coming (τῆς σῆς παρουσίας), and of the end of the world (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος). They look upon these two events as synchronous, or very closely connected. The word parousia, which in classical Greek means "presence," or "arrival," is used in the New Testament specially for the second advent of Christ to set up his eternal kingdom in full power and glory (see in this chapter vers. 27, 37, 39; and comp. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, etc.).

Referring to the same event, we find in some places the term "epiphany" used (see 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1), and in others "revelation" (ἀποκάλυψις, 1 Corinthians 1:7; 2 Thessalonians 1:7); but the three expressions denote simply the open establishment of Messiah's kingdom, indefnitely as to time and manner.

The phrase translated "the end of the world "means literally the consummation of the age (cf. Matthew 13:39; Hebrews 9:26); consummationis saeculi (Vulgate); i.e. the close of this present seen, in contradistinction from the future aeon, or the world to come. This is "the last time," "the last days," spoken of elsewhere (see 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; and comp. Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1).

Benson Commentary
Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? —
These seem to be only different expressions to denote the same period with the destruction of Jerusalem, the disciples supposing, that when the destruction of Jerusalem should take place, then would be the coming of Christ and the end of the world, or, the conclusion of the age, as συντελεια του αιωνος should rather be translated here, and often signifies. See especially Hebrews 9:36; and 1 Corinthians 10:11.

Accordingly, in the parallel place of Mark 13:4, their question is expressed thus, When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And in that of Luke 21:7, thus, When shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

The disciples therefore inquire concerning two things; 1st, the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; and, 2d, the signs of it. The latter part of the question our Lord answers first, and treats of the signs of his coming from the 4th to the 31st verse, inclusive; and then passes on to the other part of the question, concerning the time of his coming. Jesus answered, Take heed that no man deceive you — The caution was more particularly designed for the succeeding Christians, whom the apostles then represented. For many shall come in my name — That is, as Doctor Campbell renders it, many will assume my character; a reading which expresses our Lord’s meaning more precisely than ours.

For to come in any one’s name signifies more properly with us, to come by one’s authority or order, real or pretended; in which sense the Messiah came in the name of God, the apostles came in the name of Christ. But this is far from being the sense of the phrase in this passage; where it plainly signifies that many would usurp his title, make pretensions to his office and character, and thereby lead their followers into the most fatal delusion, saying, I am Christ —

Our Lord begins with this, according to all the evangelists, and they all represent him as using almost the same words: only in Luke 21:8, he adds, the time draweth near; and indeed within a very little time this part of the prophecy began to be fulfilled. Very soon after our Saviour’s decease appeared Simon Magus, who boasted himself among the Jews as the Song of Solomon of God, and gave out among the Samaritans, that he was some great one, Acts 8:9-10.

Of the same stamp and character was Dositheus, the Samaritan, who pretended that he was the Christ foretold by Moses. In the reign of Claudius, about twelve years after the death of our Saviour, when Cuspius Fadus was procurator of Judea, an impostor, named Theudas, persuaded a great multitude to follow him, with their best effects, to the river Jordan, for he said that he was a prophet, and promised to divide the river for their passage; and saying these things, he deceived many, says Josephus.
But Fadus sent a troop of horse against them, who, falling unexpectedly upon them, killed many, and made many prisoners; and having taken Theudas himself alive, they cut off his head and brought it to Jerusalem. A few years afterward, in the reign of Nero, when Felix was procurator of Judea, such a number of these impostors made their appearance, that many of them were apprehended and killed every day. They seduced great numbers of the people still expecting the Messiah. Our Saviour might well, therefore, caution his disciples against them.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's what YOU said YOU believed..
Are you backpedaling on that now?



Can you name a few "parts" that you believe were fulfilled in their day?

Even Just one or two?



How exactly is the main theme of "little children it is the last Hour... and many antichrists have come by which we know is the last hour" ...the distant future?

It's the 'duality' of the Revelation. It portends the then soon coming destruction of Jerusalem, and of the end time destruction and the coming of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As horrendous as the siege of Jerusalem was in 70 AD it pales compared to the slaughter of six million Jews. It should be noted as well that the Jews were under the judgment of God way before 70 AD, and that judgment continues to this day.
I agree that the wholesale slaughter during the Holocaust was horrendous., but I don't believe the Holocaust to have ANYTHING to do with prophecy (and certainly not "God's judgment").

The Jews of the Holocaust had nothing to do with the killing of the prophets, the piercing of Jesus, or an oppressive Temple religious system.

Revelation 6:9-11 ~ The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice,“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's the 'duality' of the Revelation. It portends the then soon coming destruction of Jerusalem, and of the end time destruction and the coming of Christ.

Can you cite a Passage or two from Revelation that you believe portends the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem?
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.