Is Salvation not good enough?

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To all who are reading
I was willing to let it go with your taking my "To all:" greeting; But now you are copying my recent "To everyone reading this thread" greeting. Please stop trying to plagiarize my writing style. I would not mind if you believed as I do, but we are not in agreement on the matter of salvation (Which is really close to my heart). Whether it was your intention or not, this makes it seem like you are mocking me by doing this. Please stop. Thank you.


Side Note:

Please know that I am not upset with you, but I just want you to know it is not correct in my view to keep copying a person's writing style if they are in strong disagreement with them.
 
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Grip Docility

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You said:
That's not something that the Catholic Church teaches at all. In fact, that's a false teaching of many Protestant denominations.

Sibling Chilehed....

Allow me to invoke Paul...

Those individuals are Anathema that add to the requirements of Salvation. Those people, whatever their NASCAR Sponsor (Denomination)... are just plain Anathema. (Galatians)
 
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Grip Docility

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I was willing to let it go with your taking my "To all:" greeting; But now you are copying my recent "To everyone reading this thread" greeting. Please stop trying to plagiarize my writing style. I would not mind if you believed as I do, but we are not in agreement on the matter of salvation (Which is really close to my heart). Whether it was your intention or not, this makes it seem like you are mocking me by doing this. Please stop. Thank you.


Side Note:

Please know that I am not upset with you, but I just want you to know it is not correct in my view to keep copying a person's writing style if they are in strong disagreement with them.

Please know that by EXALTING SELF as part of the Salvational Equation... You are becoming a False Lighthouse that will run ships aground!

I am not making fun of you, nor copying you, but beginning to see a pattern where the Gospel is being complicated with Cross Emptying words that Place Burden of Salvation upon HUMAN FLESH, other than the HUMAN FLESH OF GOD.

I'm not trying to be rude, or frustrating, but this has become a pattern, and to Exalt the FLESH of Mortal Man as Salvic is a very offensive thing, in my opinion... thus I respond as I respond.

In my opinion it is you who are mocking the Cross.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, without malice or anger.
 
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Grip Docility

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So much for admitting you're wrong.

What I mean is that anyone who reduces the Cross of Christ as NonSalvic... As Paul states over and over like a broken record in all of his epistles, whether they be an Angel or respected person, is Anathema.

Do you disagree with Galatians 2?

Galatians 2:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
 
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Grip Docility

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You seem intent on continuing to prove that you have no clue what Catholic teaching is, and that you are unwilling to admit that you're wrong.

I have actually been attempting to show you that I agree with the core Salvational Principles.

I believe, that you believe, it is Jesus Christ, alone, that Saves you, Through His DBR, and Sanctifies you, because you have come to Him and Believe in Him. Am I incorrect?
 
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BNR32FAN

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BNR32FAN,

I speak as plainly as I speak, not to exalt sin, or suggest that we should glorify sin as a thing to rejoice in... but because I know, out of a vast number of experiences and discussions with many people, that we all fall short, day after day.

Some days, may be "Omission" based.
Other days, may be "Commission" based.

My point is that the Serving God part has to do with reassuring people of His complete work and looking after the needs of those in need, His followers and even the needs of the entire world.

Our "Gospel Commission" is truly to Love, Heal, Guide, Provide, Look after and be there for a hurting world that Truly needs Jesus.

Amen friend, I just wanted to show the other side of the coin. I’m sure you don’t preach that it is ok for example for someone to decide to go to a strip club with his friends and one of them says “hey aren’t you a Christian, you can’t come to the strip club and get drunk with us” and the “Christian” laughingly replies “ahhh it’s ok Jesus died for my sins”. That’s one example that I’m referring to. There are a lot of people out there that claim to be Christians and actually believe this is what Christ died for. Christ died so that the world may be saved. Everyone has the option to repent and turn to God. Christ did not die for those who use His sacrifice as an excuse to willfully and knowiy continue to live in sin. Being a Christian is a matter of the heart. What the person desires is what defines him. Does he desire to serve God or does he desire to serve himself or satan? If his desire to serve God is truly in his heart then he will not make a practice of sin. If his desire is only to outwardly appear as a Christian for others to see but inwardly desires to serve himself then he is serving satan.
 
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Grip Docility

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Amen friend, I just wanted to show the other side of the coin. I’m sure you don’t preach that it is ok for example for someone to decide to go to a strip club with his friends and one of them says “hey aren’t you a Christian, you can’t come to the strip club and get drunk with us” and the “Christian” laughingly replies “ahhh it’s ok Jesus died for my sins”. That’s one example that I’m referring to. There are a lot of people out there that claim to be Christians and actually believe this is what Christ died for. Christ died so that the world may be saved. Everyone has the option to repent and turn to God. Christ did not die for those who use His sacrifice as an excuse to willfully and knowiy continue to live in sin. Being a Christian is a matter of the heart. What the person desires is what defines him. Does he desire to serve God or does he desire to serve himself or satan? If his desire to serve God is truly in his heart then he will not make a practice of sin. If his desire is only to outwardly appear as a Christian for others to see but inwardly desires to serve himself then he is serving satan.

Bear with my tongue and cheek, please...

I would say that said Christian that went to said strip club still has their salvation in tact, but has surrendered their human dignity by paying to see naked women!

If anyone should be paid for being naked it should be me!

I would say said Christian most likely surrendered a large sum of funds for a ridiculous purpose and the illusion of human companionship, that is in women that profess interest merely to empty pockets and wallets.

I would say the sense of worthlessness, depression and regret that will walk with said Christian as they deal with the fact that they paid to see a girl naked, and were suckered into wasting their money is only the beginning of the natural chastising that they will receive, over time.

I would say the poverty that follows said Christians choice is a direct result of their stupidity.

I would say that said christian may even judge the very girls they are paying to see.

I would say said christian is wasting precious gospel time, unless they went there to selflessly witness, which is highly unlikely. :p

I would say said Christian needs to get a life, a girlfriend and a sense of reality.

I would say said Christian needs to look for real experiences, instead of artificial ones.

I would say said Christian may be beyond the help of God if he is married and said Christian's wife finds out! :D
 
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chilehed

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I have actually been attempting to show you that I agree with the core Salvational Principles.
I said, you've totally abandoned any pretense of willingness to admit you were wrong in your characterizations of Catholic teaching.

It's time for you to man up.
 
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Grip Docility

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I said, you've totally abandoned any pretense of willingness to admit you were wrong in your characterizations of Catholic teaching.

It's time for you to man up.

Please help me "man up". I'm willing. How have I offended you? I am putting on my "Mr. Potato Head" listening ears.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We have been talking specifically about the Roman church and not the Eastern arm which is differentiated from the Western or Roman arm. ChicanaRose made that very clear early on.

It is debatable whether Orthodoxy is the true representative of "Jesus' one Church" - the subject that chilehed and I are discussing. But, as for the Roman branch, there is no doubt in my mind that it is not.

I suspect that you agree with me since you point proudly to it being "excommunicated from the Catholic church in 1054AD".

But since you brought the subject up, and made it such a point to call your church the "Catholic Church" - I don't believe yours is either. That's not to say that many people in your group are not part of the true Church. Undoubtedly there are many in the East who have believed on Christ's work as their only hope of salvation and rejected the idea that church ritual has any part in their salvation in the basic sense. But they are saved in spite of an affiliation with Orthodoxy and or Romanism and not because of it or through it.

But - please - there are threads about that subject and this is not one of them. You can debate the subject of Orthodox vs. various Protestant vs. R.C. belief systems of salvation and worship there if you wish.

Truly I do not proudly say the Roman church was excommunicated. I say it with much reluctance because it’s not my intention to attack the Roman Church. I am not Orthodox, I would classify myself as a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox doctrines. I don’t consider myself Orthodox because I don’t embrace all of their teachings but on the other hand I don’t refute them either. Most of their teachings I agree with but some I choose to remain neutral on because I cannot prove them to be either true or false and since these have no bearing on my salvation I see no need to make a choice. I simply leave them as I don’t know. As for the discussion being about the Roman Church I was not aware so I decided to make it clear that the Roman Church does not reflect the teachings of the apostolic Church of God. I didn’t read all 11 pages of posts. My intention was simply to enlighten those who may confuse the Roman Church with the apostolic Catholic Church so they might not confuse the two.
 
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com7fy8

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Why is it that I receive from them comments like:

"Well, that's a great start for your parents. But let's pray that they will come to the fullness of truth through the Catholic church"
While I was a Roman Catholic, I believed the Roman Catholic Church was the only really right church . . . because I was told this and I understood that I was not to question the authority of Catholic leaders. But I also was told that it is possible for a Protestant to go to Heaven, but it would be harder than if that person was a Catholic. So, I might tell you your parents needed the Catholic religion, because I was told this.

And I would not have only said you need the fullness of truth, but I would have understood that the Sacraments are needed in order to get God's grace. So, I would be concerned that your parents would not be getting grace, as well as they could by participating in the Sacraments which would be for them as married people.

As a Catholic, I would have thought that even if your parents were living well with Jesus, still they could do even better with the Sacraments.

This I would say is basically what Catholics are told; so if they trust their teachers, this is how they would feel about your parents.

But was I getting actual grace changing me to become more like Jesus? I would say not. I was into some pretty deeply evil stuff, right while doing all which I understood I was supposed to do as a Catholic. I was driven by not wanting to go to Hell; so I was not deliberately being or doing wrong; yet, I was so deeply wrong . . . according to all I have now discovered in God's word and experiencing how God and His examples have been correcting me.

So, in my case personally, I would have been telling you that because of how ignorant and wrong and in darkness I was. That was not the fault of the Catholic church, though, but because of my own character making me able to so fool my own self.

Being able to fool ourselves . . . about whom we trust, whom we marry, who we are sure is a real pastor > this is not only a Catholic problem, is it? Only Jesus can get us to see the real truth about our own selves, then. And only with Christ can we become God's way in His character of His love > 1 John 4:17-18. So, I wouldn't worry about what people you don't even know personally say about you. But how are we with God?
 
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thecolorsblend

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I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic.
And as I’ve said before, generally if you’re not Catholic then by definition you are Protestant.

How you “choose to identify” doesn’t change the facts.
 
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Grip Docility

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And as I’ve said before, generally if you’re not Catholic then by definition you are Protestant.

How you “choose to identify” doesn’t change the facts.

How you redefine the word "Catholic", doesn't change the facts.

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chilehed

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Please help me "man up". I'm willing.
Revisiting an earlier post:
You said:
So long as Rome teaches that understanding and participating in those higher truths is necessary for salvation...
The Catholic Church explicitely rejects that idea: study the Catechism paragraphs 836 through 848.
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

In fact, that's a false teaching of many Protestant denominations.
The Catechism section I directed you to flatly contradicts what you said, so much so that many people try to claim that it says that one can be saved apart from the merits of Christ (an idea which it explicitly rejects).

So man up: study the Catholic Catechism, and admit that you were wrong when you said that the Catholic Church "teaches that understanding and participating in those higher truths is necessary for salvation."

And then ask yourself how familiar you can be with Catholic teaching when you got this obvious one so badly wrong.
 
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Grip Docility

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Revisiting an earlier post:

The Catechism section I directed you to flatly contradicts what you said, so much so that many people try to claim that it says that one can be saved apart from the merits of Christ (an idea which it explicitly rejects).

So man up: study the Catholic Catechism, and admit that you were wrong when you said that the Catholic Church "teaches that understanding and participating in those higher truths is necessary for salvation."

And then ask yourself how familiar you can be with Catholic teaching when you got this obvious one so badly wrong.

I'm not @His student

I simply answered one of your posts.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Why is it that I receive from them comments like:

"Well, that's a great start for your parents. But let's pray that they will come to the fullness of truth through the Catholic church"

Catholics are like that. :)
 
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To Everyone Here:

Do believers always sin? Do believers always fall short of the glory of God as mentioned in Romans 3:23 (or missing the Mark as some call it)?

First, Paul is referring to accepting Jesus in Romans 3. He is referring to how we have all sinned at one point in our past life, and the only way to get saved is to have faith in Jesus Christ and believe in His death and resurrection. This is the process of Justification. This is where salvation starts.

How is the interpretation correct? Well, because if one believes that Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is talking about the present tense walk of a believer (and not exclusively their past life before they became a believer), then one must also read Romans 3:11 in this way. Meaning, if a person believes they are sinning Christian in the present tense based on Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then they must also believe that they are without understanding and they do not seek after God currently according to Romans 3:11.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

Second, not all sins lead unto death.

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​


Three, while believers do have the power to overcome grievous sin, believers have been known to sin on occasion, and they can confess of their sins to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9). For John says to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). Jesus says to two people to sin no more (See: John 5:14, and John 8:11).

Please keep in mind that I am not perfect, and I do need God's grace and forgiveness as the next person and that I have stumbled on occasion. But God's grace is not a means to continue in sin, but it is a means to overcome grievous sin. What is grievous sin? I will explain this in my next post.


Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.
 
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Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).​
 
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