Questions regarding baptism

Butch5

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I realize there may not be a simple answer to these questions.

1-if I have accepted Jesus as my savior, is baptism required? I have not been baptized, and am in the process of joining a congregation and would be baptized after becoming a member. For reasons too complicated to bring up here (regarding my mental health) I may need to put membership on hold. Which would delay baptism. If I die would I go to Hell?

2-if due to my issues I cannot join and get baptized soon, and baptism is required for salvation, are there pastors who will baptize you without you having a relationship with their church? Is this a legitimate thing to do?

I’m 40, was never Baptized as a child. I’ve been a believer for a long time, I just never sought out church membership and baptism. Now That my issues may delayed my baptism, I’m worried.

Contrary to what you'll hear in many churches, baptism is a part of salvation. God is surely capable of saving anyone He chooses to save. However, He has let us know that baptism is a part of salvation. Jesus told the disciples when He sent them out, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.' Peter too, tells us that baptism saves. He compares Noah's being saved from an evil generation through the waters of the flood with baptism saving the Christian. Baptism is the act of asking God to forgive one's sins. Peter says that it's a appeal to God. When Ananias went to see Paul he told him to go and be baptized and wash away his sins.

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16 KJV)

I don't know what the issues are that you are talking about. However, if they don't prevent you from being baptized I would do so. You should be able to find someone who will baptize you even if you don't attend their church.
 
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Butch5

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Hi BlessedVegan,

Please be aware that contrary to what some have told you on this thread, water baptism is NOT required for salvation according to God's Word, the Bible. Baptism is an intentional act of obedience on the Christian’s part that should take place after receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It is an outward, visible sign which symbolizes the inward, invisible change that has already taken place in the life of a believer who has received the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, the act of baptism serves as a public witness and testimony of a believer’s new life in Christ.

There is no saving power in baptism. The act of baptism itself does not cleanse or redeem anyone from their sin, nor is it required for salvation to “take effect.” Salvation from one’s sin comes by grace and is imparted through faith in Jesus Christ, not by external acts, works, behaviors, feats or actions of any kind, including baptism. Therefore, if someone desires to be baptized, yet has not been born-again, their baptism will be of no effect and will accomplish nothing of value.

Below are some scriptures for your reference and study.

An Act of Obedience After Salvation:
“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. Acts 10:47-48 (NASB)

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household. Acts 16:29-34 (NASB)

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39 (NKJV)

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. [Note: This verse does not teach that water baptism saves anyone, but rather it expresses what should be done after one has been made a disciple.] Matthew 28:19-20 (NASB)

Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), He left Judea and went away again into Galilee. [Note: Baptism followed the “making of” disciples.] John 4:1-3 (NASB)

Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. Acts 18:8 (NASB)

But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Acts 8:12 (NASB)


An Outward Act Demonstrating an Inward Change:
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. [Note: This verse denotes what water baptism symbolizes: having died to sin and having been raised to newness of life in Christ Jesus.] Romans 6:3-7 (NASB)

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. Colossians 2:11-14 (NKJV)


Water Baptism Does Not Save:
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. [Note: If baptism was a requirement for salvation, then according to the content of verses 14-16 Paul would be thanking God that none of them had been saved except for Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas.] 1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” [Note: The thief on the cross was not baptized after placing his trust in Jesus for salvation, yet he is told he will be with Jesus in Paradise that very day.] Luke 23:42-43 (NASB)

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. [Note: Peter is using the example of the ark (which provided salvation for Noah and his family from the destructive floodwaters) as a “corresponding type” to the salvation Jesus provides (from sin that brings death) through the placing of one’s faith in His sacrificial death and resurrection. It is this baptism that saves, not the act of being water baptized.] 1 Peter 3:18-22 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. [Note: The second half of verse 16 clarifies that only “belief” is required for salvation, not baptism. This truth is confirmed in John 3:16 as well as in many other verses of Scripture.] Mark 16:15-16 (NASB)

Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. [Note: According to Acts 9:17-18, Paul received both his sight and the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid his hands on him, and then he was baptized. Therefore, as Paul reiterates this encounter in this verse (Acts 22:16), he is simply relaying Ananias’ instruction for him to be water baptized, which symbolized his sins being washed away by calling on the name of the Lord. It is important to remember that forgiveness of sin can only be granted upon believing Jesus for one’s salvation. It cannot occur apart from salvation since forgiveness, eternal life, justification, righteousness and the indwelling Holy Spirit are all received instantaneously upon salvation from sin and its consequences.]
Acts 22:16 (NASB)


*Commonly Misunderstood Verses (with Clarification Provided):
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” [Note: The water spoken of by Jesus is not a reference to “baptism,” but is a reference to the water through which a person is born into the world naturally the first time (aka: amniotic fluid). He clarifies this truth when He says, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Therefore, Jesus is simply distinguishing the “natural birth” (by water) from the “supernatural birth” (by the Spirit). This is further clarified when He says, “that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.”] John 3:5-7 (NASB)

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” [Note: At first glance, Peter appears to be indicating that water baptism is the vehicle through which forgiveness of sin and salvation are received. However, this would contradict the clear teaching of Scripture which declares that forgiveness of sin and salvation are only obtained by God’s grace through faith in Jesus’ shed blood and not through water baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9; Ephesians 1:7-8; Romans 5:1-2; Romans 9:30-32; 1 Corinthians 1:17-18; Romans 1:16). Therefore, given that Peter declared to them in verse 21, “...it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved,” and given that these believers received (accepted/believed) his preached word and then were baptized in verse 41, it is clear from the surrounding text that Peter was instructing these people to turn away from their sin of having rejected and crucified the Messiah and believe on Him instead for their forgiveness and salvation. This was to be quickly followed by water baptism as a testimony of their salvation, having called on the name of Jesus for it.] Acts 2:38-39 (NASB)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [Note: The washing spoken of here is not referring to water baptism but refers to that which occurs through regeneration by the Holy Spirit when one places their faith in Jesus for salvation.] 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB)

For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. [Note: This verse is not referring to water baptism but to the regeneration done by the Holy Spirit which brings a person into the body of believers, the Church.] 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NASB)

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [Note: This verse speaks of being baptized into Jesus through faith; fully immersed in Him, having died to self and put on Christ.] Galatians 3:26-27 (NASB)

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. [Note: The “washing of water by the word” speaks of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross (which is proclaimed through the preached word and written word) since His shed blood is the only thing that provides cleansing from sin and enables a person to be presented holy and without blemish before God.] Ephesians 5:25-27 (NKJV)

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [Note: This speaks of being baptized into Christ through faith, having died to sin through burial and raised to life by God.] Colossians 2:11-12 (NKJV)

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [Note: This washing of regeneration is what is done by God when we trust Jesus for salvation. It is not a reference to water baptism.] Titus 3:4-7 (NASB)


In closing, I really encourage you to study the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you (and show you) what is true. Don't take my word for it or anyone else's word on this forum. Seek God's Word for the truth on this. :)

Kris, if these notes are from your NASB you might want to disregard them from now on. If they're from a commentary you'd do well to disregard it. They are simply wrong. The passages are clear in and of themselves. However, if we need more evidence we can get it from the earliest Christian writings. these early Christians we adamant that baptism is in fact necessary for salvation.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Even Lutherans and Anglicans who believe in faith alone believe baptism saves. It is because it is God's grace on us not any work.

Hi David,

Salvation cannot be both "faith alone" and "faith plus baptism." One is without works and one with is with works. That is a contradiction.

The bible clearly and emphatically proclaims that salvation is a work of grace alone that is imputed to us at the moment we believe, not at any other moment.

  1. The thief on the cross believed in Jesus (= moment of salvation) and then died on his cross without being water baptized afterwards, yet still went to Paradise, per Jesus.
  2. Cornelius was saved upon hearing about Jesus and believing (= moment of salvation), was filled with the Holy Spirit (another act of grace on God's part when he believed and was saved), and all of this happened before he was ever water baptized.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Peter too, tells us that baptism saves. He compares Noah's being saved from an evil generation through the waters of the flood with baptism saving the Christian.

Hi Butch5,

in 1 Peter 3:18-22, the "water" did not save Noah. It was the Ark that saved them from (or through) the destructive waters that would have otherwise killed them like it did all the other people on the planet at that time. Read that verse very carefully in its entire context to understand what is actually being said, so you are not misled.

Likewise, the "baptism" spoken of here is not the act of being water baptized (per the text and surrounding context), but is the actual baptism into Christ through belief (which is what water baptism is actually intended to symbolize), which occurs when one believes and is saved because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Hope that helps. :)
 
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Butch5

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Hi David,

Salvation cannot be both "faith alone" and "faith plus baptism." One is without works and one with is with works. That is a contradiction.

The bible clearly and emphatically proclaims that salvation is a work of grace alone that is imputed to us at the moment we believe, not at any other moment.

  1. The thief on the cross believed in Jesus (= moment of salvation) and then died on his cross without being water baptized afterwards, yet still went to Paradise, per Jesus.
  2. Cornelius was saved upon hearing about Jesus and believing (= moment of salvation), was filled with the Holy Spirit (another act of grace on God's part when he believed and was saved), and all of this happened before he was ever water baptized.
No Kris, it doesn't. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find anyone saying one is saved by faith alone. That doctrine came from Martin Luther in the 16th century. Who by the way believed that baptism was required for salvation . The only mention of faith alone in the Scriptures comes from James who said a man is NOT justified by faith alone. Since justification is necessary and one cannot be justified by faith alone, one cannot be saved by faith alone.
 
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TheSeabass

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Hi TheSeaBass,

When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, He said, "It is finished." That means that He finished the work that was necessary for us to be saved.

We do not, nor can we, ever do any work or act to aid in our salvation. To think that we can is a complete slap in God's face. If we could contribute to our salvation by being water baptized, then Jesus died in vain -- or at best, His sacrifice was insufficient to save us and we have to "add to" what He did in order for God to accept it. That is heresy. God Himself tells us in Isaiah 64:6, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

God makes it very clear in His Word that we are saved by His grace through faith. Faith in what? Ourselves? Getting submerged in (or sprinkled by) water? No. By believing Jesus paid our price in full when He took our sin upon Himself and died in our place. The very fact that God raised Him from the dead triumphantly declares that God the Father accepted Jesus' payment in full for our sin. Salvation is a gift, never earned or worked for. Ever. It simply must be received by faith, and faith alone apart from works...even works of righteousness.

When Christ said 'it is finished' He was referring to His work, His mission to come to earth and die on the cross was finished, His earthly ministry was finished, etc

Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; Hebrews 5:9 show that man has a responsibility/ accountability to doeth, to obey Christ in order to be saved.

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
Man must work if he desires everlasting life

After Jesus tells the people to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life, the people then ask Jesus " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" John 6:28

Jesus answered "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Note how Jesus did NOT answer their question of verse 28...Jesus did NOT tell them to 'do no work' for He has already done all the work. Instead Jesus gave them a work to do, and in the context that work Jesus gave them to do was the work of believing.

Kris Jordan said:
The Bible says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Faith includes baptism.

Eph 4:5--------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Peter 3:21----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is but one way to be saved (Ephesians 4:5), no alternatives, then faith must include baptism.

Kris Jordan said:
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)

Again, faith includes baptism...faith includes repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). All the belief only in the world cannot save those who refuse to repent of their sins, who refuse to confess Christ, refuse to be baptized.

Kris Jordan said:
...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;
Ephesians 3:17a (NASB)

Again, the faith of the Ephesians included baptism:

(1)
Eph 2:8----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Peter 3:21----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

(2)
Paul baptized some of the Ephesians, Acts of the Apostles 19:4-5

(3)
John 3:5-------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>in the kingdom
Eph 5:26-----the word+++++++laver of water>>>>>cleansed

(4)
Ephesians 1:1-9
Many times in verse 1-9 Paul says those Ephesians were "in Christ" or "in Him" and baptism is the only way one can get in Christ, Galatians 3:27


Kris Jordan said:
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (NKJV)

Belief gives the power to one to BECOME a child of God. Those whose belief includes repentance, confession and baptism are the ones who are children of God by adoption.

Kris Jordan said:
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)


And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)

Again, belief includes baptism.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,..."

Those who "believed" in v44 are the same ones who gladly received the gospel and baptized. So "believed" in v44, as in some other verses, is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where it includes being baptized.

Acts 16:33-34 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately. And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

This context is about the jailer. In v34 the participle phrase "having believed" sums up all the jailer had just done, including repentance (washing their stripes) and being baptized. So here again, "believed" is a synecdoche where in includes repentance and baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...." When Peter says baptism now saves us, he does NOT mean baptism alone saves. Here "baptism" is used as a synecdoche where it would include belief (Mark 16:16) repentance (Luke 13:3) and confession (Matthew 10:32-33)


Kris Jenner said:
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7 (NASB)

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Titus 3:5-----------Holy Ghost+++++++++laver of water>>>>>>saved

The new birth includes water baptism, born of water, baptized, laver of water.



Kris Jenner said:
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)

Yes, works of the OT law of Moses cannot justify. Water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins is of the NT gospel and does save.

Kris Jordan said:
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:40 (NASB)


...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith;
Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)


What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
Romans 9:30-32 (NASB)


For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
Galatians 2:19-21 (NKJV)


Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Romans 3:20 (NIV)


For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:23-24 (NIV)


You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:14-15 (NASB)


The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 4:23-25 (NIV)


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23 (NKJV)


The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:35-36 (NJKV)


As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:14-16 (NASB)


Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24 (NASB)


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (NASB)


And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” [Note: The thief on the cross placed his trust in Jesus for salvation and was told he would be with Jesus in Paradise upon his death.]
Luke 23:42-43 (NASB)


Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:7b-9 (NASB)


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (NASB)


Again, "faith" and "believe" include repentance confession and baptism.
 
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TheSeabass

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Some thoughts about the thief on the cross:

(1)

Hebrews 9:16-17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Before a testament can be in effect one must first die. Yet at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise Christ was alive meaning His New testament was not yet in effect. It would not go into effect until some time AFTER Christ died.

So the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation.

Romans 6:3-4, Christ's NT requires one be baptized into the death of Christ before one can walk in newness of life. Again, at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise Christ had not yet died. So it was not possible for the thief to meet this NT requirement by being baptized into the death of Christ.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Again, Christ had not yet died much less resurrected so Romans 10:9 was not possible for the thief either.

It is not possible for the thief to be an example of NT salvation

(2)
There is no proof positive that the thief was never baptized. The thief may have been of those in Mark 1:4-5 that was baptized of John. Since the Bible does not provide proof positive that the thief was or was not baptized, then it can only be speculation to say the thief was never baptized.

(3)

Matthew 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

When Christ was "ON EARTH" He had been given the power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving, as the thief. Yet Christ is not on earth anymore forgiving sins of men in person, so no one today can claim they are saved as the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, He left behind His New Testament as His authority on earth and that NT requires one to believe (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) be baptized (Mark 16:16) and live faithfully unto death (Revelation 2:10)
 
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TheSeabass

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The Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss if the Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be saved, Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2.

During this meeting, Peter spoke and said God made no distinction between Jews and Gentiles verse 9 and that "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles) ." Acts of the Apostles 15:11

So Jew and Gentile are both saved in a "like manner" way'

In Acts 2, we have the first recorded gospel sermon where Peter preached the gospel to the Jews and commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins (saved).

In the "like manner" way, Peter took the gospel to the Gentiles and we have the first Gentile converts in Acts 10. Peter gave a command the Gentiles (as he did to the Jews in Acts 2): "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts of the Apostles 10:48


We can easily see that the "like manner" way Jew and Gentile are saved is by obeying the command to be water baptized in the name of Christ for remission of sins.
 
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TheSeabass

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1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.(OT type)"

1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure (NT anti-type) whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Old Testament type: saved by water (flood)
NT anti-type: ------- saved by water (baptism)

Consider the parallels:
1. The waters of the flood delivered Noah from a corrupt society to a new world----water baptism brings one into a state of newness of life (Romans 6:3-5).
2. Water delivered Noah from a condemned world---baptism delivers us from condemnation (Mark 16:16).
3. The flood separated the saved from the lost---baptism is the line between lost and saved.
4. The flood wasn’t the Savior, but the instrument or means of deliverance---water baptism isn’t the Savior, rather it is the last condition prior to salvation. (Mark Dunagan)
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch5,

in 1 Peter 3:18-22, the "water" did not save Noah. It was the Ark that saved them from (or through) the destructive waters that would have otherwise killed them like it did all the other people on the planet at that time. Read that verse very carefully in its entire context to understand what is actually being said, so you are not misled.

Likewise, the "baptism" spoken of here is not the act of being water baptized (per the text and surrounding context), but is the actual baptism into Christ through belief (which is what water baptism is actually intended to symbolize), which occurs when one believes and is saved because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Hope that helps. :)

Peter says nothing about the ark. He said that they were saved through water. The Greek word that is translated "through" is the Greek word "dia". It means the agent by which something is accomplished, ie I booked my cruise "through" a travel agency. The travel agency is how I booked my cruise. Likewise Peter said they were saved dia water. Thus the water was the agent through which Noah was saved. He was saved from the water he was save by or through the water.t

Water baptism is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism is how one's sins are forgiven. Jesus also tells us that baptism is necessary. He said, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. If you look at His words "believes" and "is baptized" are in the present tense. However, "shall be saved" is future tense. Thus shall be saved occurs after "believes" and "shall be baptized. One must believe and be baptized to be saved. There is no way around this grammatical argument.

We also have Paul's words.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit. 3:5 KJV)

The word that is translated "washing" is actually a noun in Greek. It means a bath. It is the bath of regeneration. There is only one bath in the Christian faith and that is water baptism.

We also have the early Christian witness.

Justin Martyr AD 160
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
 
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Kris Jordan

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No Kris, it doesn't. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find anyone saying one is saved by faith alone. That doctrine came from Martin Luther in the 16th century. Who by the way believed that baptism was required for salvation. The only mention of faith alone in the Scriptures comes from James who said a man is NOT justified by faith alone. Since justification is necessary and one cannot be justified by faith alone, one cannot be saved by faith alone.

Hi Butch5,

In order to believe "salvation requires water baptism," you must completely ignore the myriad of verses which emphatically state that salvation, eternal life, sonship, etc., it is obtained through faith and faith alone -- and it is faith "alone" because no other requirement is given in these crystal clear verses aside from believing and/or having faith. Therefore, what is "required" for salvation is exactly what is stated in those verses (below), and nothing more.

So I have a serious question for you: Since salvation is God's #1 goal and desire for mankind, why would He ever inspire men of God to write powerful verses like the many stated below and leave out the act of water baptism IF water baptism was actually required for salvation? If water baptism was a prerequisite/requirement for salvation, then these verses are lies to the core, or misleading at best:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)


You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)


...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;
Ephesians 3:17a (NASB)


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (NKJV)


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)


And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)


But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7 (NASB)


Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)


For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:40 (NASB)


...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith;
Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)


What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
Romans 9:30-32 (NASB)

You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:14-15 (NASB)


The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness - for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 4:23-25 (NIV)

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:35-36 (NJKV)


As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:14-16 (NASB)


Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24 (NASB)


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (NASB)


Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:7b-9 (NASB)


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (NASB)
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch5,

In order to believe "salvation requires water baptism," you must completely ignore the myriad of verses which emphatically state that salvation, eternal life, sonship, etc., it is obtained through faith and faith alone -- and it is faith "alone" because no other requirement is given in these crystal clear verses aside from believing and/or having faith. Therefore, what is "required" for salvation is exactly what is stated in those verses (below), and nothing more.

So I have a serious question for you: Since salvation is God's #1 goal and desire for mankind, why would He ever inspire men of God to write powerful verses like the many stated below and leave out the act of water baptism IF water baptism was actually required for salvation? If water baptism was a prerequisite/requirement for salvation, then these verses are lies to the core, or misleading at best:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)


You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)


...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;
Ephesians 3:17a (NASB)


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (NKJV)


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)


And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)


But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7 (NASB)


Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)


For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:40 (NASB)


...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith;
Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)


What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
Romans 9:30-32 (NASB)

You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:14-15 (NASB)


The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness - for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 4:23-25 (NIV)

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:35-36 (NJKV)


As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:14-16 (NASB)


Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24 (NASB)


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (NASB)


Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:7b-9 (NASB)


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (NASB)

Kris, I gave the words of Jesus Himself. His statement puts salvation after believing and being baptized. As I said, there is no way around His statement. Likewise I gave you statements from Peter, Paul, and Justin Martyr.

In another post I pointed out that nowhere in Scripture is it said that one is saved by faith alone. The "Faith Alone" doctrine is not a Biblical doctrine. It comes from Martin Luther and the Reformation, not the Bible. Scripture talks about being saved by faith, not faith alone. It's simply not there.

Regarding the passages you've posted. This is why it's important to read them in context and not just put them together in a list. What the authors wrote was dealing with specific issues, specific people, and specific churches. The context is important. If the subject is faith there is no need to mention baptism or anything else. They would mention faith. This is where an understanding of the historical background and setting come into play. If you understand what Paul is talking about when speaks of not being saved by works it's clear that he's not talking about baptism or doing good deeds.

By posting these passages you've created an argument from silence, a logical fallacy. The claim that because they don't mention baptism, baptism isn't necessary is the fallacy. If someone told you that you need gas to drive your car, would you then argue that you don't need oil or tires because that person didn't mention tires? Surely not. Of course you still need oil and tires, even though the person only mentioned gas. That's the error in your argument. There are places in Scripture that speak of needing other things but don't mention faith.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit. 3:5 KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38 KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet. 3:18-21 KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb. 5:9 KJV)

In these verses we find salvation coming through, baptism, a renewing of the Holy Spirit, Repentance, and obedience. There is not a single mention of belief or faith. Using your argument one could argue that faith isn't needed for salvation.

They are all needed. One must repent. One must obey. One must be baptized. One must have the renewing of the Spirit. Martin Luther's "Faith Alone" doctrine was an over reaction to the abuses he saw in the Catholic church. Instead of just swinging the pendulum back to the center he over reacted and went too far to the opposite extreme.

None of the passages you posted are a lie or misleading. They are simply dealing with a belief or faith issue in the context in which they were written and there was no need for the author to address the subject of baptism or repentance or obedience or whatever. The author dealt with issue at hand.

Look at Jesus' statement again. Jesus is sending out his disciples and He tells them what will happen. He said go and preach the gospel. He's telling them what will happen to those who react to His message. Those who believe it and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe it will be damned.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Kris, I gave the words of Jesus Himself. His statement puts salvation after believing and being baptized. As I said, there is no way around His statement. Likewise I gave you statements from Peter, Paul, and Justin Martyr.

In another post I pointed out that nowhere in Scripture is it said that one is saved by faith alone. The "Faith Alone" doctrine is not a Biblical doctrine. It comes from Martin Luther and the Reformation, not the Bible. Scripture talks about being saved by faith, not faith alone. It's simply not there.

Regarding the passages you've posted. This is why it's important to read them in context and not just put them together in a list. What the authors wrote was dealing with specific issues, specific people, and specific churches. The context is important. If the subject is faith there is no need to mention baptism or anything else. They would mention faith. This is where an understanding of the historical background and setting come into play. If you understand what Paul is talking about when speaks of not being saved by works it's clear that he's not talking about baptism or doing good deeds.

By posting these passages you've created an argument from silence, a logical fallacy. The claim that because they don't mention baptism, baptism isn't necessary is the fallacy. If someone told you that you need gas to drive your car, would you then argue that you don't need oil or tires because that person didn't mention tires? Surely not. Of course you still need oil and tires, even though the person only mentioned gas. That's the error in your argument. There are places in Scripture that speak of needing other things but don't mention faith.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit. 3:5 KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38 KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet. 3:18-21 KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb. 5:9 KJV)

In these verses we find salvation coming through, baptism, a renewing of the Holy Spirit, Repentance, and obedience. There is not a single mention of belief or faith. Using your argument one could argue that faith isn't needed for salvation.

They are all needed. One must repent. One must obey. One must be baptized. One must have the renewing of the Spirit. Martin Luther's "Faith Alone" doctrine was an over reaction to the abuses he saw in the Catholic church. Instead of just swinging the pendulum back to the center he over reacted and went too far to the opposite extreme.

None of the passages you posted are a lie or misleading. They are simply dealing with a belief or faith issue in the context in which they were written and there was no need for the author to address the subject of baptism or repentance or obedience or whatever. The author dealt with issue at hand.

Look at Jesus' statement again. Jesus is sending out his disciples and He tells them what will happen. He said go and preach the gospel. He's telling them what will happen to those who react to His message. Those who believe it and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe it will be damned.

Hi Butch5,

We couldn't agree to disagree any more than we already do. :)

Jesus did it all on the cross for us. I'm not sure why you don't see that in the context of specific scriptures, within their surrounding context, and within the context of the entirety of Scripture as a whole - but you are free to continue to believe you must personally add to His (already sufficient) sacrifice on the cross in order to make His gift of salvation yours.

According to what God says in His Word, I trust completely that Jesus paid it all on my behalf and satisfied all of God's holy and righteous requirements Himself, and I believe fully that at the moment I placed my trust in Him for my forgiveness and salvation, I was and am saved because that's what the Bible tells me emphatically.

I hope one day you will be able to see the goodness of the grace of God fully and realize you add nothing to His perfect plan of redemption, but rather must simply receive it on the basis of what He already did for you that you could never do for yourself, not even one ounce.

God bless! :)
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch5,

We couldn't agree to disagree any more than we already do. :)

Jesus did it all on the cross for us. I'm not sure why you don't see that in the context of specific scriptures, within their surrounding context, and within the context of the entirety of Scripture as a whole - but you are free to continue to believe you must personally add to His (already sufficient) sacrifice on the cross in order to make His gift of salvation yours.

According to what God says in His Word, I trust completely that Jesus paid it all on my behalf and satisfied all of God's holy and righteous requirements Himself, and I believe fully that at the moment I placed my trust in Him for my forgiveness and salvation, I was and am saved because that's what the Bible tells me emphatically.

I hope one day you will be able to see the goodness of the grace of God fully and realize you add nothing to His perfect plan of redemption, but rather must simply receive it on the basis of what He already did for you that you could never do for yourself, not even one ounce.

God bless! :)

Hi Kris, I'm guessing you're Baptist because this sounds just like Baptist preaching. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about what's right and what's wrong. One of us is teaching people wrongly. If you tell someone that they don't have to be baptized and you're wrong it's a big deal. Likewise if I do it, it's a big deal. We're told to preach the Gospel, not our denomination's point of view. I'm happy to look at the Scriptures with you. I've studied these issue long and hard. I've looked at the historical understanding of baptism. I've looked at the historical setting in which the apostles preached their message.

You'e claiming one is saved by faith alone. Where is such an idea stated in Scripture? I've shown you passages that plainly state that there are other things that save us. Why would you ignore them and continue to argue the same point without as much as addressing them? I'm assuming that the truth is of the utmost importance to you. If so, why not dig into the Scripture to find the truth rather than parrot a particular doctrinal position. I can assure you that Baptism is required as Jesus plainly shows.

I'm often baffled in situations like this, because when I face the same situation I wanted the truth at any cost. No doctrine was to sacred to be tossed by the wayside in search of the truth. And, many were cast by the wayside. It doesn't matter if a million people believe something, if it opposes what Jesus said, I'm going with Jesus. Believe me, the necessity of baptism isn't the only thing most modern churches have wrong. There's a lot of error taught in churches today.

Here is a paper I've written on the subject of baptism. It'll show you my position and why I say baptism is necessary. Baptism, What is it's Purpose?
 
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Hi Kris, I'm guessing you're Baptist because this sounds just like Baptist preaching. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about what's right and what's wrong. One of us is teaching people wrongly. If you tell someone that they don't have to be baptized and you're wrong it's a big deal. Likewise if I do it, it's a big deal. We're told to preach the Gospel, not our denomination's point of view. I'm happy to look at the Scriptures with you. I've studied these issue long and hard. I've looked at the historical understanding of baptism. I've looked at the historical setting in which the apostles preached their message.

You'e claiming one is saved by faith alone. Where is such an idea stated in Scripture? I've shown you passages that plainly state that there are other things that save us. Why would you ignore them and continue to argue the same point without as much as addressing them? I'm assuming that the truth is of the utmost importance to you. If so, why not dig into the Scripture to find the truth rather than parrot a particular doctrinal position. I can assure you that Baptism is required as Jesus plainly shows.

I'm often baffled in situations like this, because when I face the same situation I wanted the truth at any cost. No doctrine was to sacred to be tossed by the wayside in search of the truth. And, many were cast by the wayside. It doesn't matter if a million people believe something, if it opposes what Jesus said, I'm going with Jesus. Believe me, the necessity of baptism isn't the only thing most modern churches have wrong. There's a lot of error taught in churches today.

Here is a paper I've written on the subject of baptism. It'll show you my position and why I say baptism is necessary. Baptism, What is it's Purpose?

Hi Butch5,

No, I'm not a Baptist. I'm simply an on-fire, passionate born-again Christian who stands on the principles and truths of God's Word and is passionate about biblical truth vs. error. You think I am in error and I think the same of you, so it is what it is. I'm not here to convince you - only the Holy Spirit can do that with any of us.

In all sincerity, I have already heard the arguments from those of your position and I vehemently stand upon the entirety of Scripture and what it teaches about salvation, which is why I said, "we couldn't agree to disagree any more than we do."

God bless you!
 
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Kris Jordan

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Hi Kris, I'm guessing you're Baptist because this sounds just like Baptist preaching. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about what's right and what's wrong. One of us is teaching people wrongly. If you tell someone that they don't have to be baptized and you're wrong it's a big deal. Likewise if I do it, it's a big deal. We're told to preach the Gospel, not our denomination's point of view. I'm happy to look at the Scriptures with you. I've studied these issue long and hard. I've looked at the historical understanding of baptism. I've looked at the historical setting in which the apostles preached their message.

You'e claiming one is saved by faith alone. Where is such an idea stated in Scripture? I've shown you passages that plainly state that there are other things that save us. Why would you ignore them and continue to argue the same point without as much as addressing them? I'm assuming that the truth is of the utmost importance to you. If so, why not dig into the Scripture to find the truth rather than parrot a particular doctrinal position. I can assure you that Baptism is required as Jesus plainly shows.

I'm often baffled in situations like this, because when I face the same situation I wanted the truth at any cost. No doctrine was to sacred to be tossed by the wayside in search of the truth. And, many were cast by the wayside. It doesn't matter if a million people believe something, if it opposes what Jesus said, I'm going with Jesus. Believe me, the necessity of baptism isn't the only thing most modern churches have wrong. There's a lot of error taught in churches today.

Here is a paper I've written on the subject of baptism. It'll show you my position and why I say baptism is necessary. Baptism, What is it's Purpose?

Hi Butch5,

What I am willing to do with you, however, is deal with one scripture at a time, if you'd like. You can offer up the most powerful one you think substantiates your position and we'll go from there, piece by piece. If not, we can leave it as is.
 
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In order to believe "salvation requires water baptism," you must completely ignore the myriad of verses which emphatically state that salvation, eternal life, sonship, etc., it is obtained through faith and faith alone -- and it is faith "alone" because no other requirement is given in these crystal clear verses aside from believing and/or having faith. Therefore, what is "required" for salvation is exactly what is stated in those verses (below), and nothing more.
With all due respect, you cannot treat those two assertions as though the one is the opposite of the other. Because they are not.

Regardless of which of them any of us subscribes to, the opposite of "salvation requires baptism" is not "faith alone."

Salvation is by Faith. Baptism is a sacrament, a vehicle of God's Grace, something he provided for his people in their lives as disciples of Christ. Nor, strictly speaking, is baptism a prerequisite for salvation. The great majority of churches recognize that there are occasionally extreme circumstances which make reception of the sacrament impossible...but yet salvation is nevertheless possible. That has been recognized since unbaptized persons were thrown to the lions in Rome for being followers of Christ, then to be considered martyrs by the church.
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch5,

What I am willing to do with you, however, is deal with one scripture at a time, if you'd like. You can offer up the most powerful one you think substantiates your position and we'll go from there, piece by piece. If not, we can leave it as is.

Sure! we can do that. The passage that is probably the strongest is Mark 16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mk. 16:15-16 KJV)

As I've stated, there is a grammatical argument here that there no way around. "Believes" and "is baptized" are both in the present tense. "shall be saved" is future tense. The present always comes before the future.

You've posted a lot of passages. Can you post one that says a person is saved by faith alone?
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch5,

No, I'm not a Baptist. I'm simply an on-fire, passionate born-again Christian who stands on the principles and truths of God's Word and is passionate about biblical truth vs. error. You think I am in error and I think the same of you, so it is what it is. I'm not here to convince you - only the Holy Spirit can do that with any of us.

In all sincerity, I have already heard the arguments from those of your position and I vehemently stand upon the entirety of Scripture and what it teaches about salvation, which is why I said, "we couldn't agree to disagree any more than we do."

God bless you!

Not at all. If you're correct and can show me a logical argument for your position you can convince me. But it has to be a logical argument and it has to incorporate the entirety of Scripture.
 
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With all due respect, you cannot treat those two assertions as though the one is the opposite of the other. Because they are not.

Regardless of which of them any of us subscribes to, the opposite of "salvation requires baptism" is not "faith alone."

Salvation is by Faith. Baptism is a sacrament, a vehicle of God's Grace, something he provided for his people in their lives as disciples of Christ. Nor, strictly speaking, is baptism a prerequisite for salvation. The great majority of churches recognize that there are occasionally extreme circumstances which make reception of the sacrament impossible...but yet salvation is nevertheless possible. That has been recognized since unbaptized persons were thrown to the lions in Rome for being followers of Christ, then to be considered martyrs by the church.

Hi Albion,

According to Scripture, baptism is an act of obedience to Jesus on the part of the believer who has already been saved. It is not a "vehicle of God's grace." The only vehicle of God's grace is Jesus who paid the price for our sin and provides the way to be reconciled to God through faith.

Water baptism is a symbolic, outward expression of the transformation that has already occurred inside a person when they passed from spiritual death to life, having trusted Jesus for their forgiveness and salvation in full. Therefore, baptism is a public testimony that demonstrates having died to our life of sin (going down into the water) and being raised to new life in Christ (coming up out of the water). It's really that simple.

Furthermore, there is only one way to be saved according to the bible - not two ways or a combination of ways. We are saved by God's grace when we place our faith in the finished work of Jesus. Anything in addition to that is false and renders Jesus' sacrifice insufficient to save us.
 
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