Eve came from Adam, evolution does not allow this

dad

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Why do we have to erase eve because certain details about her creation and story are allegorical? We didn't erase the "earth" because we finally admitted that it wasn't flat, did we?

nhfHMug.jpg
You may erase nothing in scripture ever..it is forever settled. Little man may repent and surrender unconditionally. Little man may not reconstruct the word of God, sealed by Jesus as true.
 
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Cis.jd

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You may erase nothing in scripture ever..it is forever settled. You may repent and surrender unconditionally.

Yup, no erasing is happening. What is happening is that now or later, some atheist/muslim/nonchristian is going to start copy pasting your posts as source material as to why "christianity is ridiculous" so that he can present them to the christian he is arguing with, and that christian is probably going to be trying his best to make excuses to the Atheist about how you don't represent "true christianity".
 
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dad

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Yup, no erasing is happening. What is happening is that now or later, some atheist/muslim/nonchristian is going to start copy pasting your posts as source material as to why "christianity is ridiculous" so that he can present them to the christian he is arguing with, and that christian is probably going to be trying his best to make excuses to the Atheist about how you don't represent "true christianity".

Then his lost people might actually start to think! What's your excuse besides a desire to please man above a sound reading of God's word? I must say I respect people who believe in what they preach and stand for. When I see people disrespecting the sacred text to try and get in bed with so called science/man's wisdom/foolishness it turns the stomach. Lukewarm...no. Hot or cold...yes please.

PS I dare any Muslims or others to challenge the bible. Double dare.

PPS If the christian is apologizing to pagans over some folks actually believing the bible, it is because they probably do not actually believe much if at all.
 
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lifepsyop

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Then his lost people might actually start to think! What's your excuse besides a desire to please man above a sound reading of God's word? I must say I respect people who believe in what they preach and stand for. When I see people disrespecting the sacred text to try and get in bed with so called science/man's wisdom/foolishness it turns the stomach. Lukewarm...no. Hot or cold...yes please.

Exactly. The non-believer sees professing Christians that don't even believe their own scriptures. Why does the non-believer even need to be saved by Jesus if all the fall of man and all that nasty sin business is just allegorical storytelling like the rest of Genesis? Maybe Jesus' resurrection was just an allegory as well? Maybe being a Christian is just about being a good person and going to church, but not getting too serious about anything in that old book, and not taking anything too literally... scary to think about how many souls are being led astray by this lukewarm thinking.

It's all or nothing. Either God gave us the truth or the Bible is just a book of fairytales and moral teachings. I will put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, THE WORD made flesh, every time. I don't care how stupid it makes me look to the world.

In fact, that scenario is to be expected. We were clearly warned in 2 Peter that people would come in the last days denying creation and the flood. Who would have thought that professing Christians would be so gleefully jumping on that bandwagon to avoid losing the respect of other men?
 
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Cis.jd

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Then his lost people might actually start to think! What's your excuse besides a desire to please man above a sound reading of God's word? I must say I respect people who believe in what they preach and stand for. When I see people disrespecting the sacred text to try and get in bed with so called science/man's wisdom/foolishness it turns the stomach. Lukewarm...no. Hot or cold...yes please.

PS I dare any Muslims or others to challenge the bible. Double dare.

PPS If the christian is apologizing to pagans over some folks actually believing the bible, it is because they probably do not actually believe much if at all.

God's word isn't fallible, and what you've presented was not only demolished by academics but also theologians and apologetics site, not to mention being shown to be completely empty of reasoning. You are just rejecting what you don't want to accept on your own and tagging the Bible on it.
 
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Cis.jd

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Maybe Jesus' resurrection was just an allegory as well? .
It could have been viewed as an allegory, but good thing we have historical records of Jesus' existence and also the Martyrdom of the Apostles, whose main drive of dying was because of believing he resurrected so strongly.

It's all or nothing. Either God gave us the truth or the Bible is just a book of fairytales and moral teachings. I will put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, THE WORD made flesh, every time. I don't care how stupid it makes me look to the world.
Remember that other thread in where i gave you a sports headline. You've already been given examples that metaphors =/= fiction. Yet you (oddly) reject or ignore these examples.
(I'm finding it odd, in a suspicious way, that more than 1 person is misunderstands what figures of speech are and is misrepresenting them the same way by putting it in the context of it being a classification of fiction. :scratch:)

Anyway, you don't even accept the "Eucharist" to be the literal body/blood other denominations say is told in scripture, and yet here you are saying we must believe in everything literally or classify at as fiction? (Will you ignore this too so you can keep self-repping and "holy-tagging" your arguments regardless of apologist sites being posted?)
 
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The Barbarian

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Did the pre-humans sin?

Is H. erectus a "pre-human?" Other animals are innocent. Until we had the ability to know right from wrong, we were unable to sin. Do you know from which species of human Adam and Eve came? Would it matter?

Theo-Evos whom I have talked with say no. If that be so somewhere in the so-called human evolution the population people began to sin. When was that?

What do you think sin is? That's important for you to know, if you want to find the answer.

What was that sin?

Disobedience against God.

Why should mankind be responsible for that sin?

Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned . . . Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous ;(Rom. 5:12-19)

How did man get a spirit?

Soul is that which gives life to a body. Spirit is those aspects of a human that do not depend on physical things, and orients man toward God.

It is my belief that the Theo-Evo sect won't answer these question because they can't answer them and conform to what the bible says.

You lose.
 
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dad

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Exactly. The non-believer sees professing Christians that don't even believe their own scriptures. Why does the non-believer even need to be saved by Jesus if all the fall of man and all that nasty sin business is just allegorical storytelling like the rest of Genesis? Maybe Jesus' resurrection was just an allegory as well? Maybe being a Christian is just about being a good person and going to church, but not getting too serious about anything in that old book, and not taking anything too literally... scary to think about how many souls are being led astray by this lukewarm thinking.

It's all or nothing. Either God gave us the truth or the Bible is just a book of fairytales and moral teachings. I will put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, THE WORD made flesh, every time. I don't care how stupid it makes me look to the world.

In fact, that scenario is to be expected. We were clearly warned in 2 Peter that people would come in the last days denying creation and the flood. Who would have thought that professing Christians would be so gleefully jumping on that bandwagon to avoid losing the respect of other men?
Very correct, and this is the proper Christian approach. otherwise, you could toss out so much of the bible and insert what you like, some could claim pedophilia and homosexuality and child sacrifice are acceptable! (look at some churches and we see they are riddled with such people). Next they could make the bible secondary to some leader's whims..etc etc etc.
 
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dad

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God's word isn't fallible, and what you've presented was not only demolished by academics but also theologians and apologetics site, not to mention being shown to be completely empty of reasoning. You are just rejecting what you don't want to accept on your own and tagging the Bible on it.
I present nothing, I read what God presented. Name ONE apostle of prophets that taught the earth was millions of years old or that creation really means evolving from worms or monkeys or whatever??! We wait.
 
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dad

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Is H. erectus a "pre-human?" Other animals are innocent. Until we had the ability to know right from wrong, we were unable to sin.
Ah so now you declare sin to be some mental attribute!!! How about a three year old or a retarded person, do you deem them mentally worthy? I do not recall any verse that says we grow an ability to know right from wrong!! Ridiculous.
Disobedience against God.
How would anyone know what God said or meant if they tossed out whole sections wily niley like you do creation?


Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned .
That man was the man God took Eve from that you reject. What first monkey man do you have in mind exactly?!

. . Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses
So Moses was real but Eve no?

, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Sounds like a real person to me, not someone that may have lived, but was not actually directly created by God.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
The last Adam was real, but not the first?
 
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The Barbarian

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Ah so now you declare sin to be some mental attribute!!!

How do you figure that rebellion against God is a mental attribute?

How about a three year old or a retarded person, do you deem them mentally worthy?

Of what? Do you not understand that one must be aware of right and wrong to sin?

I do not recall any verse that says we grow an ability to know right from wrong!!

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

That's what God says.

Ridiculous.

We'll just have to disagree. You think God's word is ridiculous. How would anyone know what God said or meant if they tossed out whole sections wil'y nilly like you do creation?

That man was the man God took Eve from that you reject. What first monkey man do you have in mind exactly?!

That's the sort of thing you have to believe, once you reject Genesis and try to make it into a literal history.

So Moses was real but Eve no?

You don't think Eve was a real person? Why am I not surprised?
 
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lifepsyop

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It could have been viewed as an allegory, but good thing we have historical records of Jesus' existence and also the Martyrdom of the Apostles, whose main drive of dying was because of believing he resurrected so strongly.

So secular historical records are sacrosanct, but biblical accounts of history can go straight in the trash heap?

Remember that other thread in where i gave you a sports headline. You've already been given examples that metaphors =/= fiction. Yet you (oddly) reject or ignore these examples.
(I'm finding it odd, in a suspicious way, that more than 1 person is misunderstands what figures of speech are and is misrepresenting them the same way by putting it in the context of it being a classification of fiction. :scratch:)

I'll copy the same response I gave in the other thread on this 'metaphor' claim:

Do you ever stop to wonder why this supposed flood allegory isn't written anything like an allegory? Why are we given specific genealogies, ages, months, days, durations, desriptions of geologic processes and specific geographic locations? How do all these details contribute to the moral of the story?

In actuality the Genesis flood narrative (like most of Genesis in its entirity) is written more like a factual news article than the allegorical interpretation you want to force onto it.

Why go out of your way to convince yourself that black is white? What's so hard about just believing God did what he said he did?


Anyway, you don't even accept the "Eucharist" to be the literal body/blood other denominations say is told in scripture, and yet here you are saying we must believe in everything literally or classify at as fiction? (Will you ignore this too so you can keep self-repping and "holy-tagging" your arguments regardless of apologist sites being posted?)

Where did I say we must believe everything literally? The Bible is full of allegories, parables, metaphors, symbolism, etc. And the dinstictions are usually quite clear, sometimes even explicitly described as such.

What I have a problem with is professing Christians taking a painfully obvious historical account like those found in Genesis (i.e. this happened, then this happened, then this happened, on these specific days, at these specific times, etc.) and then using mental gymnastics to twist it into something they want it to be... just so they can be considered "reasonable" to non-believers.
 
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dad

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How do you figure that rebellion against God is a mental attribute?

I was looking at what you said

" Other animals are innocent. Until we had the ability to know right from wrong, we were unable to sin."

So you suggest man cam from 'other animals' here. Not sure what you think the ability to know right from wrong came from, if not due to your suggested evolution into higher intelligence? I think we know you ruled out the story of Adam and Eve as real. So what was it, did God sneak in after they evolved and bestow on them some magical power to know right from wrong, or..? How would anyone know what you are thinking since we cannot use the bible as a guide with you?? Sorry, I am not here to guess or give psychic readings of what your real opinion is.

Of what? Do you not understand that one must be aware of right and wrong to sin?

We are born into sin now, so it seems to be a state of affairs, more than some special act or acts men do, no? As for the first woman who sinned, she was aware of good and bad only after she disobeyed. No connection to evolution or mental ability.

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

That's what God says.
He also says woman came from the man and etc etc. How are we supposed to know what bits you want to cherry pick as true? So why did Adam become as the spiritual beings, knowing good and evil? The bible says it was a deliberate act one day of disobedience, not any ridiculous evolution.


We'll just have to disagree. You think God's word is ridiculous. How would anyone know what God said or meant if they tossed out whole sections wil'y nilly like you do creation?
So rather than admit you rejected Genesis outright, you make dark false accusations about actual bible believers who try to believe what God said. That is a red flag.


You don't think Eve was a real person? Why am I not surprised?
When real is gauged by what God says in Genesis, guess who doesn't believe in a real Eve?

Be honest.
 
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The Barbarian

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I was looking at what you said

I said sin is a rebellion against God. Sorry you disagree.

" Other animals are innocent. Until we had the ability to know right from wrong, we were unable to sin."

So you suggest man cam from 'other animals' here.

So the evidence indicates.

Not sure what you think the ability to know right from wrong came from, if not due to your suggested evolution into higher intelligence?

You might want to get a Bible and read it. That will clear things up for you. As a very good Christian once remarked, the mind is not a mere epiphenomenon of the brain.

I think we know you ruled out the story of Adam and Eve as real.

That's not the only thing you got wrong. Adam and Eve were real people. The problem is, you want to convert the creation story into a literal history, even thought the text itself tells you that it isn't a literal history.

So what was it, did God sneak in after they evolved and bestow on them some magical power to know right from wrong, or..?

I guess it's a YEC thing to regard God as "sneaky." And now, you're denying what God says about the way man's soul was created, or you dismiss it as "sneaky" and "magic."

[quote[How would anyone know what you are thinking since we cannot use the bible as a guide with you??[/quote]

If you would simply let the Bible guide you, instead of trying to correct the Bible, it might work better for you. But rather than admit you rejected Genesis outright, you make dark false accusations about actual bible believers who try to believe what God said. That is a red flag.

When real is gauged by what God says in Genesis, guess who doesn't believe in a real Eve?

Someone here once claimed Jesus wasn't God. So I wouldn't be surprised if that person didn't think Eve was a real person, either. Too bad for him. Here's a tip:

Be honest.
 
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Cis.jd

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So secular historical records are sacrosanct, but biblical accounts of history can go straight in the trash heap?
Secular historical records are great resources because they are proven truth for the Bible and obviously shuts down any unintelligent arguments about "xyz" being a metaphor. That is the great thing about evidence.

Do you ever stop to wonder why this supposed flood allegory isn't written anything like an allegory? Why are we given specific genealogies, ages, months, days, durations, desriptions of geologic processes and specific geographic locations? How do all these details contribute to the moral of the story?
Yup, and the example I gave, which is taken from a sports article contains the same factual things but there was a lot of expressive/artistic details in that article such as "spitting fire" etc. Do you understand this stuff or are you just ignoring it?

In actuality the Genesis flood narrative (like most of Genesis in its entirity) is written more like a factual news article than the allegorical interpretation you want to force onto it.
We don't have much evidence of it being a factual/historical event as accurately described in the Bible. Some Jewish people to this day argue that Noah was more than 1 person who represents all the people who survived the flood. If you think that is wrong and we must take the Bible literally, then tell me how did Chinese, Russian, Caucasians, Mexicans come to existence if only 1 man (assuming he is Jewish) and his family survived that?

Why go out of your way to convince yourself that black is white? What's so hard about just believing God did what he said he did?
Because it isn't "black and white". There are apologists and theologians for a reason. Literature utilizes artistic expression to help create an emphasis so that the readers understand what is going on, and since the Bible was written from BC-AD, the writers would use artistic expressions based on what their culture understood during that time in addition to applying their current understanding of the physical world.

Where did I say we must believe everything literally? The Bible is full of allegories, parables, metaphors, symbolism, etc. And the dinstictions are usually quite clear, sometimes even explicitly described as such.
Well the fact that your arguments have been that I must take it literally or i'm not some "true christian" is indirectly saying that you believe it has to be literal. So how do you know then these distinctions, especially when you start cross referencing to historical documents, scientific possibilities, original translations, and even the Talmud?

What I have a problem with is professing Christians taking a painfully obvious historical account like those found in Genesis (i.e. this happened, then this happened, then this happened, on these specific days, at these specific times, etc.) and then using mental gymnastics to twist it into something they want it to be... just so they can be considered "reasonable" to non-believers.
If it was an accurate historical account as told and as you believe, then there should be evidence. I'm not sure about the flood, because i have not looked into how legit the whole "discovery of Noah's ark" is but there is no denying that many details in Genesis aren't to be taken literally.
 
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Cis.jd

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I present nothing, I read what God presented. Name ONE apostle of prophets that taught the earth was millions of years old or that creation really means evolving from worms or monkeys or whatever??! We wait.

You tag God to give credibility to your lack of knowledge. The fact that you were already provided links to various apologetic sites of different denominations shows that you are only defending your own ignorant views.
 
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The bible seems to suggest otherwise, He is a jealous God and will have no demon science or gods before Him. He does not allow bending the knee to multiple gods. If God be God then worship Him. If demon science be god then worship and believe it.

Recognizing that God created life on Earth via evolution is not worshiping "demon science."

He called the cup fruit of the vine not blood.

Jesus did reference the fruit of the vine elsewhere in scripture, but at the first communion He said body and blood. Perhaps you need to spend reading Genesis and more time reading the New Testament.

Matthew 26:26-28 “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

John 6:53-54 “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

First Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?”


Your point is moot. Why are you grasping at straws to find some excuse to wave away Genesis/creation/Eve?

And you are ignoring the words of our Lord Jesus.

Free to believe or disbelieve. There IS no order in chapter two...show me one morning and evening were the...day!!!!? It was over. Finished already. Done. Complete. Past. Finito.

Wrong. "Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground." Then we are told "The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground." Now you can say what you want, but that says man first, then plants. If you read on you will then see the creation of animals and birds after man. That is a different order than chapter 1.
 
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Interesting thought, Jesus fulfilled the law. He was circumcised, etc etc etc. So if He drank blood that would be breaking the law!

Le 7:27 - Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Matthew 26:26-28 “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

John 6:53-54 “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

First Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?”
 
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dad

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I said sin is a rebellion against God. Sorry you disagree.

" Other animals are innocent. Until we had the ability to know right from wrong, we were unable to sin."



So the evidence indicates.



You might want to get a Bible and read it. That will clear things up for you. As a very good Christian once remarked, the mind is not a mere epiphenomenon of the brain.



That's not the only thing you got wrong. Adam and Eve were real people. The problem is, you want to convert the creation story into a literal history, even thought the text itself tells you that it isn't a literal history.



I guess it's a YEC thing to regard God as "sneaky." And now, you're denying what God says about the way man's soul was created, or you dismiss it as "sneaky" and "magic."

[quote[How would anyone know what you are thinking since we cannot use the bible as a guide with you??

If you would simply let the Bible guide you, instead of trying to correct the Bible, it might work better for you. But rather than admit you rejected Genesis outright, you make dark false accusations about actual bible believers who try to believe what God said. That is a red flag.



Someone here once claimed Jesus wasn't God. So I wouldn't be surprised if that person didn't think Eve was a real person, either. Too bad for him. Here's a tip:

Be honest.
Until "we" had the ability? By we I assume you mean the evolved humans that first existed in your belief system?

By the way why mention someone who did not believe Jesus was God here...is that some sort of slanderous insinuation?
 
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