Is Salvation not good enough?

Also, Universalists can make the claim that salvation or God’s grace is not good enough as their version of grace and salvation. For the Universalist Christian sees all will eventually be saved in the end. But we know Scripture does not support them and they are seeing what they want to see. I believe this is the case with Belief Alone-ism, as well.

Jason0047 said:

Also, Universalists can make the claim that salvation or God’s grace is not good enough as their version of grace and salvation. For the Universalist Christian sees all will eventually be saved in the end. But we know Scripture does not support them and they are seeing what they want to see. I believe this is the case with Belief Alone-ism, as well.

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Oh for the! Every place you post, you post against Romans 4:1-6

As for Universalism... 1 John 2:2 shows it was intended for all, but yeah, scripture show not all will receive it.

thecolorsblend said:

I could let the rest of your post go. But this...

Oh boy. Ancient Judaism was not a "sola scriptura" religion. As for Christianity, the Church existed for centuries without a universally recognized NT canon.

As to the canon itself, there is no divinely revealed table of contents. The texts recognized as Sacred Scripture today are so recognized on the authority of the Church.

Our Lord created the Church; the Church created the New Testament; the New Testament did not create the Church.

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The scriptural passage I quoted which best represents the principle of “Sola Scriptura” came from the laws of Moses, also known as the Penteteuch, which is recognized as being divinely inspired of our Lord and Creator, even by the Catholic Church. It came from no other source.

Before there was a Talmud or the implementation of other Jewish traditions, there was just the Old Testament scriptures to which the Jews looked. It was the laws of Moses which governed the day to day life of Jewish society, which the priesthood was responsible for teaching, and by which civic authorities were supposed to rule. There was nothing else upon which Jewish doctrine was established except the Mosaic Law and later, the rest of the Old Testament scriptures. They were established by God as a “Sola Scriptura” civilization although they were not always faithful to abide accordingly, as the Bible makes clear.

The Church existed for two centuries, not several centuries, without an officially canonized set of NT scriptures, but that doesn’t mean that what was later to become the officially canonized NT wasn’t recognized by a substantial amount of the Church body.

Much of the canonization process was completed quite rapidly, but there was still debate regarding the authoritativeness of a handful of Epistles before being finally canonized.

Yes, our Lord created the Church. That is not what is being disputed. But it was existing scriptures and Apostolic Epistles that established Church doctrine. In fact, the Apostle Peter, in his second Epistle, called the writings of the Apostle Paul scripture (2 Pet. 3:15-16).

So, at this point, in the Apostolic generation, all of the Old Testament Scriptures, and at least some of the Apostolic writings would have been the closest there would have been to a divine table of contents if a table of contents were to have been arranged, but nonetheless there was no question about the divine inspiration of the Old Testament scriptures and as for determining the divine inspiration of the Apostolic writings, the criteria for determining their divine inspiration, at least in the case of Paul’s Epistles, was because Peter considered them scripture. (2 Pet. 3:15-16) As for the others, debate continued but with debate being quickly settled in the case of most of the other Apostolic writings in the New Testament canon while debate continued around a handful of other Epistles into the third century.

If it were not so, the Church would have been without doctrinal direction and we would have no way of being sure if the canonized New Testament Scriptures were the actual divinely inspired scriptures because the Church itself would have had no way of being sure either.

Historically, the canonization process began in the second century under the generation succeeding the Apostles. It is even possible that some of those of that succeeding generation might have either known the Apostles or at least those associated with them.

Grip Docility said:

Oh for the! Every place you post, you post against Romans 4:1-6

As for Universalism... 1 John 2:2 shows it was intended for all, but yeah, scripture show not all will receive it.

Click to expand...

First, the answer is within the very post that you "liked." You actually found my post as "informative" (in post #94) that actually explains Romans 4 and other passages by Paul on the meaning behind what he meant on the words "law" and or "works." But I think you did not either understand my post or you did not really read it. The verses in the post you found as "informative" actually explain what Paul is talking about. Paul is fighting against the false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism" as the basis for a person's salvation instead of making Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith in him.

Paul was talking about "Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism" (Without God's grace) because of the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."


Second, you cannot comprehend that there is a difference clearly taught between the "Justification Process" and the "Sanctification Process" in the Bible. You confuse the two processes. "Justification" (i.e. a belief in Jesus as our Savior, and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation) is faith in Jesus without works, and "Sanctification" (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit within a believer to live holy) includes works of faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches that both: "a belief" and "Sanctification" are a part of our salvation.

Three, you have to keep reading Paul into Romans 6:1-2 that says,


Paul says you will die if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin).
But you can live (i.e. have eternal life) if you put to death the deeds (i.e. sinful deeds) of the body by the Spirit. For it is written:


So if you live one way, you are going to die, but if you live another way, you are going to live.
The choice is up to you. There is no.... "All my future sins are forgiven, so I do not need to ever worry about sin again." That is a false teaching that you will find in your Bible.

But again, I am afraid you will not read this post or you will not understand it. Hence, why I have chosen not to generally reply directly to your posts here on the forums. Thus, you never explain any of the verses I put forth to you. In this particular case, I am replying one last time as an appeal to reason with you. But I am afraid you will ignore the exhortation or you will not understand it (Because you do not want to understand it). For no doubt, it is appealing to think we do not lose salvation if we commit grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). With a view of salvation like that, there is no need to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Side Note:

Anyways, I will strive to make this my last post to you directly.

May God bless you even if we strongly disagree over the Bible.

Jason0047 said:

Again, you ignore the context. First, the answer is within the very post that you "liked." You actually found my post as "informative" (in post #94) that actually explains Romans 4 and other passages by Paul on the meaning behind what he meant on the words "law" and or "works." But I think you did not either understand my post or you did not really read it. The verses in the post you found as "informative" actually explain what Paul is talking about. Paul is fighting against the false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism" as the basis for a person's salvation instead of making Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith in him.

You cannot comprehend that there is a difference clearly taught between the "Justification Process" and the "Sanctification Process" in the Bible. You confuse the two processes. "Justification" (i.e. a belief in Jesus as our Savior, and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation) is faith in Jesus without works, and "Sanctification" (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit within a believer to live holy) includes works of faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches that both: "a belief" and "Sanctification" are a part of our salvation. Paul was talking about "Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism" (Without God's grace) because of the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."

The false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism" is saying:

You need to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved.
But if a person were to do that instead of FIRST trusting in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us (i.e. His death and resurrection), then one is replacing the foundation of their faith with "circumcision" (Which is a work) instead of making Jesus and their trust in Him as their foundation.​

Second, you have to keep reading Paul into Romans 6:1-2 that says,

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1).

Paul's answer was.... "God forbid." (Romans 6:2).

Paul's answer was NOT.... "Just focus on the finished work of Christ and do not worry about sin." (Which is the sad ole mantra I hear from Eternal Security Proponents).​

Paul says you will die if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin).
But you can live (i.e. have eternal life) if you put to death the deeds (i.e. sinful deeds) of the body by the Spirit. For it is written:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).​

So if you live one way, you are going to die, but if you live another way, you are going to live.
The choice is up to you. There is no.... "All my future sins are forgiven, so I do not need to ever worry about sin again." That is a false teaching that you will find in your Bible.

But again, I am afraid you will not read this post or you will not understand it. Hence, why I have chosen not to generally reply directly to your posts here on the forums. Thus, you never explain any of the verses I put forth to you. In this particular case, I am replying one last time as an appeal to reason with you. But I am afraid you will ignore the exhortation or you will not understand it (Because you do not want to understand it). For no doubt, it is appealing to think we do not lose salvation if we commit grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). With a view of salvation like that, there is no need to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Side Note:

Anyways, I will strive to make this my last post to you directly.

May God bless you even if we strongly disagree over the Bible.

Click to expand...

In the Flesh... to fixate on the flesh. In the Spirit... to fixate on the Spirit.

Sew to the flesh... Carnal Effort. Sew to the Spirit... Eyes on Christ.

I read and understand your perspective. The reason I like your other post, was because it all bound to Faith.

When you bring up Human effort, failure and success... I start shaking my head.

Grip Docility said:

In the Flesh... to fixate on the flesh. In the Spirit... to fixate on the Spirit.

Sew to the flesh... Carnal Effort. Sew to the Spirit... Eyes on Christ.

I read and understand your perspective. The reason I like your other post, was because it all bound to Faith.

When you bring up Human effort, failure and success... I start shaking my head.

Click to expand...

This is what I am talking about.
You did not really read and understand my post.
If you did, you would reply with explaining the points I made and try to refute them with Scripture.

Anyways, I am striving to move on from talking to you (Seeing you do not actually deal with explaining any of the verses I put forth and because it does not appear like you have even read and or understood what I had written).

Peace be unto you in the Lord, even if we disagree.

Side Note:

Oh, and was their human effort on your part when you first accepted Christ?
Please do not answer. I really do not think you will understand what I am talking about. You prefer to take comfort in knowing that (by your belief in Jesus) you do not lose salvation when you commit certain grievous sins every once in a while. But I know my God is holy, and righteous, and He cannot agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved like that. But you are free to believe as you wish.

I will work out my salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Jason0047 said:

This is what I am talking about.
You did not really read and understand my post.
If you did, you would reply with explaining the points I made and try to refute them with Scripture.

Anyways, I am striving to move on from talking to you (Seeing you do not actually deal with explaining any of the verses I put forth and because it does not appear like you have even read and or understood what I had written).

Peace be unto you in the Lord, even if we disagree.

Side Note:

Oh, and was their human effort on your part when you first accepted Christ?
Please do not answer. I really do not think you will understand what I am talking about. You prefer to take comfort in knowing that (by your belief in Jesus) you do not lose salvation when you commit certain grievous sins every once in a while. But I know my God is holy, and righteous, and He cannot agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved like that. But you are free to believe as you wish.

I will work out my salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

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I have always expressed that Jesus says the Work is "to believe" and relentlessly quoted John 6:28-29

I will avoid posting to you, from this moment forward. Please don't be shocked if I post near you, without quoting. Only, Jesus saves. Our widows mite of Faith is what begins our journey towards True Belief..... and that (True Belief) is all the work of the Holy Spirit, and I mean ALL of it. All the glory goes to God.

I have yet to meet a person that is sinless. The holiest people I've every met, admit they fail.

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you.

To all:

Many Eternal Security Proponents falsely think that "sowing to the flesh" is doing good works (When in reality good works and living holy is a part of the salvation process or Sanctification), and they think that "sowing to the Spirit" is keeping one's eyes on Christ's finished work (i.e. to believe in Jesus alone for salvation).

But this is not a teaching that can be found in the Bible.

First, they falsely think this way because of Galatians 3:3. But in reality Galatians 3:3 is referring to the false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2).

Second, they ignore or twist the meaning behind Galatians 5. For we are to WALK after the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).


So it's not believing in the finished work of Christ while we think we can break God's commands sometimes. That's one of the first lies from the Garden.
The devil wanted to get Eve to break God's command and get her to think she will not die if she did so (See Genesis 3).

What is the lusts of the flesh?


Paul says that the works of the flesh are adultery, fornication, idolatry, murders, wrath, etc. and they that do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So no. You cannot sin and still be saved (on some level) by having a belief on Jesus. A person does lose their salvation if they commit grievous sins on occasion. They need to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) in order to be restored or forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1).

To all:

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

This is saying God has chosen us to salvation through two things.

1. Belief of the truth (Jesus, or the Justification Process; Note Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
2. Sanctification of the Spirit (Living Holy by the Spirit, which brings life, the Sanctification Process - See Romans 8:13, and Romans 8:1 in the KJV).

Oh, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is in context to living holy.

For the previous verse is telling us the opposite of living holy by those who had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Also, the chapter ends with an exhortation to be established unto every good work.


Also, Hebrews 5:9 says the same thing. It essentially says that Jesus Christ is the author of our eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

1 John 1:7 says the same thing, too.

It essentially says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

If you were to look at 1 John 2:9-11, you will see that "walking in the light" is the equivalent of loving your brother.

This lines up with 1 John 3:15 that says if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us. So the Bible says it several ways that we have to be faithful or go through the Sanctification Process as a part of the salvation equation. Please check these verses for yourself in prayer.

To all:

What about John 6:28-30?

Yes, it is true, Jesus said that the works of God is to believe on Him who He has sent.


This makes sense because to believe in Jesus is a commandment (law) (See 1 John 3:23).

Are you not saved or justified in keeping this Law?

Yet, the Scriptures say we are not justified by the Law (Galatians 5:4).
We know the Bible cannot contradict itself, so this means there is another answer. The answer is that the law we are not justified by is the 613 laws of Moses (contractually speaking).
For in Galatians 5:2, Paul is talking about "Circumcision Salvationism."

Paul is not referring to the commands (laws) given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

The words "work of faith" can also be found in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 (and in context this is not a belief alone in Jesus but they are works of faith after one is already saved by God's grace). Read the entire chapters for these two verses to get the context.

Also, James says he will show you his faith, by his works.


James says in James 2:24 that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
James refers to New Covenant Law as the "royal law" (James 2:8), or the "law of liberty" (James 2:12). So obviously Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of "works" or "laws" here. For the "law of liberty" is surely not the "Law of Moses."

Paul says in Romans 7:6 that we are to SERVE in newness of Spirit (i.e. the NT Scriptures they were creating) and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, or the 613 Laws of Moses).

To All: True Faith Alone Believers do not desire to Sin, (Though they acknowledge the 1 John 1:8 of the matter) in the Flesh and infact are so aware of their failure, that the Holy Spirit is perpetually renewing their conscience to the point where their sensitivity to Sin is so deep, that they unknowingly, struggle less and less.

True Faith Alone Believers will be the first to tell you that they fail and that they still struggle, like Paul in Romans 7.

True Faith Alone Believers are attacked by those that Add Works to Salvation for 1 reason and 1 Reason Alone... Spiritual Pride. People that believe their Salvation depends on their works, like to MAGNIFY their Flesh, because they dislike the idea that ALL their EFFORT is as Jesus says (John 6:63).

Jason0047 said:

To all:

Many Eternal Security Proponents falsely think that "sowing to the flesh" is doing good works (When in reality good works and living holy is a part of the salvation process or Sanctification), and they think that "sowing to the Spirit" is keeping one's eyes on Christ's finished work (i.e. to believe in Jesus alone for salvation).

But this is not a teaching that can be found in the Bible.

First, they falsely think this way because of Galatians 3:3. But in reality Galatians 3:3 is referring to the false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2).

Second, they ignore or twist the meaning behind Galatians 5. For we are to WALK after the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
(Galatians 5:22-25).​

So it's not believing in the finished work of Christ while we think we can break God's commands sometimes. That's one of the first lies from the Garden.
The devil wanted to get Eve to break God's command and get her to think she will not die if she did so (See Genesis 3).

What is the lusts of the flesh?

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
(Galatians 5:19-21).​

Paul says that the works of the flesh are adultery, fornication, idolatry, murders, wrath, etc. and they that do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So no. You cannot sin and still be saved (on some level) by having a belief on Jesus. A person does lose their salvation if they commit grievous sins on occasion. They need to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) in order to be restored or forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1).

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What you have disagreed with is exactly what the group that (John 6:66) disagreed with, as Jesus said exactly what you are disagreeing with in (John 6:63)

I quoted this so the record would stand, not to frustrate you by quoting you.

This body dies. Whatever effort is placed in it, will perish.

Our Soul and Spirit do not Perish... and allowing the Potter to shape the eternal (Not Infinite, like God)... Spirit and Soul within us requires the Clay learning to not attempt to give the Potter a Deadline or how to do His job.

To Everybody Reading This Thread:

What does 1 John 1:8 say?

Well, 1 John 1:8 is about denying sin's existence (if we say we have no sin when we do sin the truth is not in us). This is basically a person saying that "sin" does not apply to them in regards to their right standing with God. For 1 John 1:8 has to be read in context to 1 John 2:4. They are essentially saying the same thing (for if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments the truth is not in us). 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against thinking the same way as the gnostics who denied sin's existence by thinking that there was no dire after death consequences if they did sin (1 John 2:26). Hence, why 1 John 1:9 is the next verse that follows - because it teaches a person what to do if they do happen to sin. 1 John 1:8 is written to the Christian Scientist today who thinks sin does not exist whatsoever. 1 John 1:8 is also written to the OSAS proponent (i.e. The Once Saved Always Saved believer) today because they partially deny sin's existence. For they believe they sin physically but yet they think sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level whatsoever because Christ paid for all their sins including present and future sins (Whereby they believe confession of sin is not necessary in order to be forgiven of sin). In other words, these types of believers ignore both 1 John 1:8 and some cases some of them ignore 1 John 1:9 as a result of their denial of the consequences of sin.

Anyways, the confusion on 1 John 1:8 is quickly cleared up if you and others were to read the New English Translation that says,


or if you were to read the Expanded Bible, that says,


What really seals the seal on this interpretation of 1 John 1:8 is 1 John 1:10. 1 John 1:10 says about those individuals who denied that they have NEVER sinned in the past. So this is a gnostic belief. Gnostics deny the existence of sin.

Note: The blue words within the brackets are my further explanation to the above verses.

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you, as well.

ChicanaRose said:

Do you get more excited with the fact that the person is following the LORD;
or with the fact that the person now "gets" your denominational theology?

The reason I ask is because my ancestors (all the way up to my grandparents) were pagans--pretty hard core too, hiring mediums and fortune-tellers.

Usually, when I share testimony about how my parents got saved, people rejoice.

This has not been the case with hardcore Catholics. It's like my parents are not "good enough" for them because they are Protestants.

Why is it that I receive from them comments like:

"Well, that's a great start for your parents. But let's pray that they will come to the fullness of truth through the Catholic church"

?

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Perhaps 1 Timothy 2:3-4 may answer your question.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 TIMOTHY‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

ChicanaRose said:

I am not asking why you are part of the Catholic church, but why you think it's not good enough for my parents to be Protestants. There is a difference between what you value for yourself and what you impose on others.

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Is there a difference in what God values and what He imposes as opposed to what me might value? Many Protestants don’t have a full comprehension of the Bible’s teachings. As I pointed out in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God desires everyone to come to a full understanding of the truth. So it wouldn’t stand to reason that every Christian church for the first 1500 years of Christianity had been wrong about God’s word.

Grip Docility said:

To all who are reading (This is getting ridiculous)...

When someone attempts to suggest that human beings, other than Jesus go a single day without missing the mark... a RED FLAG should go up.

When someone claims to have communion with the Almighty, but does not see their wretchedness, when compared to Him... a RED FLAG should go up.

Satan's greatest tool to distract the saints has always been to have them focus on what God can do for them, and their Fleshly Perfection, .... Instead of going out and Stomping on the lies of the Devil that the Cross can literally do as Jesus intended and break the very Gates of Hell! People are the treasure that we store up... Souls... Not the fading Empire of Dirt, or it's covering of our souls.

Lie Number 1, of the roaring Dragon, who goes to and fro, seeking to whom he may devour.. "Jesus isn't good enough to save you.... you need to do better, try harder and be without sin, of your own effort... to be Saved"

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One of the central tenants of the Protestant Reformation was total depravity. It seems that concept is being rejected.

ChicanaRose said:

I'm okay with people taking pride in their denominational beliefs. But not so much with them trying to impose it on me like I (or my parents) are not Christian enough for them.

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According to your OP it doesn’t seem like that was their intention.