Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

iamlamad · Jun 2, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Yes, it is Israel that these verses are referring to. We can see the church caught up in Rev 4. They receive their crowns........and are around the throne. The church is taken to heaven, before the tribulation. It is the elect......the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, that are going through the tribulation. Unless those days are cut short there would be not flesh alive to be caught up that receive salvation.
The twelve tribes go through the tribulation.......but are caught up before the wrath of God begins. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. Since the 144,000 are from the 12 twelve tribes...........we know the harvest is the 12 tribes. Only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God...............and they do so in a place of protection.

Truthfully, your post did not make a lot of sense.
First, it is MYTH that the church is caught up in Rev. 4. It was John that was caught up for the purpose of the church having his book - the book of Revelation. To imagine 4:1 is the rapture is exceedingly poor exegesis. Not, it is no exegesis at all: it is imagination. Neither can one tell from the elders that the rapture has taken place. No one really knows who the elders are.

You are right, the 144,000 are the first fruits, but it seems only 1/3 of the remainder of Israel will make it through the week, and be allowed into the Millennial kingdom. Is that 1/3 what you are calling "the harvest?"

You are mistaken in imagining that anyone can go through "the tribulation" and not go through The wrath of God. The reason is simple: God's that begins before "the tribulation" and continues on past it. There is NO PART of "the tribulation" or 70th week where God is not angry.

Don't take my word for it, take John's word: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and the 70th week begins at the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence and then the first trumpet judgment.

iamlamad · Jun 2, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Gods people..........both the Gentile Church and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth..........are gathered in Matt 24 and Rev 6. See the cosmic signs that are in both chapters. You keep making things up that do not agree with scripture.

When ANYONE connects Matthew 24 with Rev. 6, I know their theory is flaky. Rev. 6 is before the 70th week begins, and Matthew 24 at verse 15 is the midpoint of the 70th week to the end and past the end.

I know you are trying to link the cosmic signs as if they were the same. They are not the same: these two cosmic signs will end up being over 7 years apart.

For the readers: Joel 2 and the 6th seal in Rev. 6 are the same sign with a blood red moon. How will people KNOW it is a blood moon? They SEE it. It is the sign for the START of the DAy of the Lord. The DAY begins at the 6th seal. The 70th week starts at the 7th seal. The 70th week ends at the 7th vial. Sometime after that people we see the cosmic signs Jesus talked about, and darkened sun, a darkened moon, and Joel adds even the stars would give their light - in other words, total darkness upon the earth.

Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 3:
Joel 3:15
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the starsshall withdraw their shining.

Joel 3 and Matthew 24 are talking about the same sign: the sign of Jesus Coming.

The TRUTH: Two different signs, and TWO different times, for TWO different purposes.
You can't rewrite scripture to fit a theory.

iamlamad · Jun 2, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Sure Jesus was seen in the throne room. He is seated at the right hand of God. You just take the scripture and make stuff up. The church has received their crowns in Rev 4. There's your cigar.

Make stuff up? No, you have made stuff up. Show us which verse has Jesus in the throne room in Revelation chapter 4. If you find such a verse, then you can say I made something up.

Let me help:

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here is the Father on the throne, but NO JESUS at His right hand. I guess you just ad libbed Him!

No, the elders have crowns. I hope you know, NO ONE has ever been able to prove by scripture that the elders have ANYTHING to do with the New Testament Church.

Stop staring a a tree and back up a mile, so you can see the forest: It was 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. The ONLY way anyone can turn that into a rapture is with wild imagination.

John saw a vision of the throne room: a vision can be of the past, present or future or all of them mixed. A vision can be of one moment of time, or the moving of time over a period of time. Our God is well able to do this. Therefore we have to determine the timing but what was SEEN in the vision. This is where your theory fails. this vision of John shows us both timing and the movement of time. Most readers miss both of these things.

Since this is the CONTEXT for the first seals, it is the very foundation upon which the intent of the Author is built throughout the book: mess up the foundation and the rest will be flaky.

Copperhead · Jun 2, 2019

iamlamad said:
First, it is MYTH that the church is caught up in Rev. 4. It was John that was caught up for the purpose of the church having his book - the book of Revelation.

Essentially you would be correct. When John is caught up in Revelation 4, the elders are already there so it is not the church being caught up as represented by John. However, based on evidence from within Revelation, the rest of the NT, and OT, it is not a stretch to assert the elders are the redeemed of the church. The church was the main focus of the preceding 2 chapters anyway so it would follow the flow.

iamlamad said:
Don't take my word for it, take John's word: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and the 70th week begins at the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence and then the first trumpet judgment.

Possibly, but not certain. The passage that talks about the wrath could easily be construed that the people on the earth have finally woke up and realize all that has been going on all along is the wrath of the Lamb. You might say, atheism is no longer a viable concept with the people on earth after that point.

And the events of the Flood during Noah, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot is removed before it could take place, etc were all technically the wrath of the Lord, yet the first mention of the word "wrath" is not until chapter 49 of Genesis. One is going to have a tough time asserting that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not the wrath of Yahweh because the word doesn't show up till several chapters and many years later. Yet, you are asserting that same idea by concluding that the wrath is not until the 6th seal.

Technically, you could be right. You just need some firmer scriptural support to make the idea stick. Because, it can also be argued effectively that even the first seal is under the direction of Yeshua by His opening the seals, so could qualify as the start of His wrath. Just like Yahweh used proxies as a component of His wrath at times. Isaiah even talks about one coming that is called the "Assyrian" which will be similar to Pharaoh in Egypt, against Jacob (Israel), and when this Assryian fellow is mentioned, the illusion to the period of the antichrist is striking. And tying that individual into the 1st seal is not a stretch, especially when one also takes into account Daniel 9:27. Yahweh used the Assyrians as a proxy for his judgement against the northern kingdom, and it would seem likely that this "Assyrian" is brought forth at seal one for the same reason.

Keep in mind, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 illusions to OT passages alone, not counting NT passages. You should be able to find ample evidence to support your idea the wrath does not occur till the 6th seal, if indeed that is the case.

Copperhead · Jun 2, 2019

iamlamad said:
For the readers: Joel 2 and the 6th seal in Rev. 6 are the same sign with a blood red moon. How will people KNOW it is a blood moon? They SEE it.

Like the 4 blood moons that occurred in two successive years (2014 - 2015) at the feast days of Passover and Tabernacles in Israel both years in a row.? Then there was the super blood moon that completed the triad in January 2018 also.

This was the September 2015 blood moon photo from Jerusalem at the wailing wall area. The Moon was at one of its closest points to the earth in its cycle....

iamlamad · Jun 2, 2019

Copperhead said:
Essentially you would be correct. When John is caught up in Revelation 4, the elders are already there so it is not the church being caught up as represented by John. However, based on evidence from within Revelation, the rest of the NT, and OT, it is not a stretch to assert the elders are the redeemed of the church. The church was the main focus of the preceding 2 chapters anyway so it would follow the flow.

Possibly, but not certain. The passage that talks about the wrath could easily be construed that the people on the earth have finally woke up and realize all that has been going on all along is the wrath of the Lamb. You might say, atheism is no longer a viable concept with the people on earth after that point.

And the events of the Flood during Noah, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot is removed before it could take place, etc were all technically the wrath of the Lord, yet the first mention of the word "wrath" is not until chapter 49 of Genesis. One is going to have a tough time asserting that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not the wrath of Yahweh because the word doesn't show up till several chapters and many years later. Yet, you are asserting that same idea by concluding that the wrath is not until the 6th seal.

Technically, you could be right. You just need some firmer scriptural support to make the idea stick. Because, it can also be argued effectively that even the first seal is under the direction of Yeshua by His opening the seals, so could qualify as the start of His wrath. Just like Yahweh used proxies as a component of His wrath at times. Isaiah even talks about one coming that is called the "Assyrian" which will be similar to Pharaoh in Egypt, against Jacob (Israel), and when this Assryian fellow is mentioned, the illusion to the period of the antichrist is striking. And tying that individual into the 1st seal is not a stretch, especially when one also takes into account Daniel 9:27. Yahweh used the Assyrians as a proxy for his judgement against the northern kingdom, and it would seem likely that this "Assyrian" is brought forth at seal one for the same reason.

Keep in mind, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 illusions to OT passages alone, not counting NT passages. You should be able to find ample evidence to support your idea the wrath does not occur till the 6th seal, if indeed that is the case.

If we still close to the written word, there can be no doubt.
Notice the following:
In chapter 4:

Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father - when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been in 95 AD.

The Holy Spirit WAS there in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.

In chapter 5:

In a search for one worthy to open the book, NO MAN was found.
These events are telling us a story most people just read over and miss. What are these clues telling us?

There was only 32 years of time from eternity past to eternity future when the second person of the Godhead was not at the right hand of the Father: that was during the 32 years He was on earth. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father tells us John was seeing the throne room of the past in a vision.

Of that 32 years He was on earth, most of that time He was alive, but at the end He was killed and buried. All of that time He could not have been found worthy - for He had not yet become the Redeemer. But once He rose from the dead, THEN He became worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Reading on in chapter , Jesus was found in a subsequent search. He was immediately found worthy.

The next thing John saw was Jesus in the throne room: He had just ascended after telling Mary not to touch Him. Then John was told or saw that the Holy Spirit was sent down. We all KNOW that this happened around 32 AD. John was seeing the throne room while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth, then when Jesus ascended. All this was God showing us the TIMING of the first seals.

God wanted to show John (and then the readers) about the scroll that would end up being opened and then finally get Satan kicked off his usurped throne and give the world back to Jesus. However, God CHOSE to show John the scroll still in the hand of the Father. Of necessity then, God had to show John some things that were history to him then. God started out by showing John a throne room without Jesus there, a search for one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit there in the throne room.

But God showed John the movement of time. Jesus was either on the earth or under the earth, and time passed and He rose from the dead - and was then found worthy. Then just as the gospels tell us, He ascended and John got to see that moment in a vision. All this was to show us that the first seal was opened around 32 AD.

That first seal is to represent the church sent out with the Gospel. OF COURSE the church would be repesented by WHITE: for righteousness. OF COURSE the church would have to overcome to take the Gospel out - the life of Paul proves that! The devil is the prince of this world and would certainly not just step aside for the gospel to advance.

Seals 2 - 4 were opened then too: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth.

Seal 5 are the martyrs of the church age. We are still waiting for that final martyr.

The church then has been waiting on the 5th seal all this time. The rapture will end the church age and trigger the opening of the Day of the Lord: the 6th seal.

John's chronology is perfect and in order.

Choose Wisely · Jun 3, 2019

iamlamad said:
Truthfully, your post did not make a lot of sense.
First, it is MYTH that the church is caught up in Rev. 4. It was John that was caught up for the purpose of the church having his book - the book of Revelation. To imagine 4:1 is the rapture is exceedingly poor exegesis. Not, it is no exegesis at all: it is imagination. Neither can one tell from the elders that the rapture has taken place. No one really knows who the elders are.

I would not expect my post to make much sense to you as you seem to make up so much that is not backed by scripture.

iamlamad said:
You are right, the 144,000 are the first fruits, but it seems only 1/3 of the remainder of Israel will make it through the week, and be allowed into the Millennial kingdom. Is that 1/3 what you are calling "the harvest?"

There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. Then there is the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

iamlamad said:
You are mistaken in imagining that anyone can go through "the tribulation" and not go through The wrath of God. The reason is simple: God's that begins before "the tribulation" and continues on past it. There is NO PART of "the tribulation" or 70th week where God is not angry.

Don't take my word for it, take John's word: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and the 70th week begins at the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence and then the first trumpet judgment.

Where in the Bible can you find that the Tribulation begins at the 7th seal. That is Gods wrath. Please provide a verse.

Choose Wisely · Jun 3, 2019

Copperhead said:
Like the 4 blood moons that occurred in two successive years (2014 - 2015) at the feast days of Passover and Tabernacles in Israel both years in a row.? Then there was the super blood moon that completed the triad in January 2018 also.

This was the September 2015 blood moon photo from Jerusalem at the wailing wall area. The Moon was at one of its closest points to the earth in its cycle....

View attachment 257579

And a Super Blood Wolf Moon in 2019

Copperhead · Jun 3, 2019

iamlamad said:
If we still close to the written word, there can be no doubt.
Notice the following:
In chapter 4:

Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father - when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been in 95 AD.

The Holy Spirit WAS there in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.

In chapter 5:

In a search for one worthy to open the book, NO MAN was found.
These events are telling us a story most people just read over and miss. What are these clues telling us?

There was only 32 years of time from eternity past to eternity future when the second person of the Godhead was not at the right hand of the Father: that was during the 32 years He was on earth. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father tells us John was seeing the throne room of the past in a vision.

Of that 32 years He was on earth, most of that time He was alive, but at the end He was killed and buried. All of that time He could not have been found worthy - for He had not yet become the Redeemer. But once He rose from the dead, THEN He became worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Reading on in chapter , Jesus was found in a subsequent search. He was immediately found worthy.

The next thing John saw was Jesus in the throne room: He had just ascended after telling Mary not to touch Him. Then John was told or saw that the Holy Spirit was sent down. We all KNOW that this happened around 32 AD. John was seeing the throne room while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth, then when Jesus ascended. All this was God showing us the TIMING of the first seals.

God wanted to show John (and then the readers) about the scroll that would end up being opened and then finally get Satan kicked off his usurped throne and give the world back to Jesus. However, God CHOSE to show John the scroll still in the hand of the Father. Of necessity then, God had to show John some things that were history to him then. God started out by showing John a throne room without Jesus there, a search for one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit there in the throne room.

But God showed John the movement of time. Jesus was either on the earth or under the earth, and time passed and He rose from the dead - and was then found worthy. Then just as the gospels tell us, He ascended and John got to see that moment in a vision. All this was to show us that the first seal was opened around 32 AD.

That first seal is to represent the church sent out with the Gospel. OF COURSE the church would be repesented by WHITE: for righteousness. OF COURSE the church would have to overcome to take the Gospel out - the life of Paul proves that! The devil is the prince of this world and would certainly not just step aside for the gospel to advance.

Seals 2 - 4 were opened then too: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth.

Seal 5 are the martyrs of the church age. We are still waiting for that final martyr.

The church then has been waiting on the 5th seal all this time. The rapture will end the church age and trigger the opening of the Day of the Lord: the 6th seal.

John's chronology is perfect and in order.

I can appreciate the thought you have put into all that, but I must follow the guidance the Holy Spirit gave us in the Torah on how something is established. And that requires evidence from both NT and OT to support something as was exampled to us by the Bereans in Acts 17. You have provided only your view on the passage itself with no scriptural support whatsoever.

I provided 1 Chronicles 24, 1 Peter 2:9, and others to show that the elders can very well be representative of the church. I never brought it out in previous posts, but there is ample evidence in 2 Thessalonians that the righteous are removed before the 1st seal is broken also. And quite a bit of evidence in the OT that the removal of the righteous occurs before or at the start of this period also. To follow the guidance provided by the HS in the Torah, you will need to show texts from both OT and NT as evidence to support your position.

Choose Wisely · Jun 3, 2019

iamlamad said:
Make stuff up? No, you have made stuff up. Show us which verse has Jesus in the throne room in Revelation chapter 4. If you find such a verse, then you can say I made something up.

Let me help:

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here is the Father on the throne, but NO JESUS at His right hand. I guess you just ad libbed Him!

No, the elders have crowns. I hope you know, NO ONE has ever been able to prove by scripture that the elders have ANYTHING to do with the New Testament Church.

Stop staring a a tree and back up a mile, so you can see the forest: It was 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. The ONLY way anyone can turn that into a rapture is with wild imagination.

John saw a vision of the throne room: a vision can be of the past, present or future or all of them mixed. A vision can be of one moment of time, or the moving of time over a period of time. Our God is well able to do this. Therefore we have to determine the timing but what was SEEN in the vision. This is where your theory fails. this vision of John shows us both timing and the movement of time. Most readers miss both of these things.

Since this is the CONTEXT for the first seals, it is the very foundation upon which the intent of the Author is built throughout the book: mess up the foundation and the rest will be flaky.

No seals have been opened. The rider on the white horse in the 1st seal is carrying a bow, like Apollo, who is Horus, who is Tammuz...........the false Christ. Jesus carries the sword of the spirit.

iamlamad · Jun 4, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I would not expect my post to make much sense to you as you seem to make up so much that is not backed by scripture.

There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. Then there is the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

Where in the Bible can you find that the Tribulation begins at the 7th seal. That is Gods wrath. Please provide a verse.

You are mistaken: it is not that I make up things not backed by scripture; the truth is, my understanding of scripture differs from yours so much that you imagine I am making things up.
There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. Show us the verse or verses where you come up with this theory. It is ONLY a theory unless it can be proven by scripture.

Then there is the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection. Again, please show us scriptural proof. My bible reads that it will be some from Judea that flee into the wilderness and are protected, NOT all if Israel.

I declare that the 7th seal opens the 70th week because Jesus spoke words to me: after telling me I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked; He then told me I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked - because He would use the same marker.

I found the exact midpoint clearly marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. How? Daniel 9:27 tell us that the event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves. Paul tells us in 2 thes. 2 that the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple - where ONLY the High Priest can go, and that only once per year - and declare he is God - presumably the God of the Jews.

From our knowledge of the Old Testament, we know that when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies, the temple is desecrated and will then have to be cleansed. This will STOP the daily sacrifices. It will be the abomination that Jesus spoke of.

THEREFORE: when those in Judea SEE that abomination - SEE the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God - they will flee, exactly as God told them. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Therefore the TIMING of 12:6 will be seconds after the midpoint - or seconds after the abomination. If we back up verse by verse from 12:6 looking for a seal, or a trumpet or a vial, we come to the 7th trumpet. Therefore the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

The moment I found the 7th trumpet was God's marker for the midpoint, I flipped quickly to the 7th vial, and read these three words: "IT IS DONE." I knew then I had found what God had sent me to find. I then flipped quickly to the 7th seal, and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I thought, what a perfect way to begin the 70th week.

That is why I declare that the 70th week is marked by 7's. The 7th seal starts the week, the 7th vial ends the week - and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

If you disagree with the 7th seal, where do YOU think the week begins?

Copperhead · Jun 4, 2019

The week begins at seal one. The “bow” can mean a covenant. Following the Law of First Mention in hermeneutics, the first mention of a bow is in Genesis after the flood. A Covenant. And following the Law of Expositional Constancy in hermeneutics, the bow of the first seal could be viewed as covenant. Conquering by covenant and decree, not by military force.

He is bringing forth and affirming the covenant.

Daniel 9:27, the week starts with a covenant being affirmed by the same guy who does the abomination at the mid point when he breaks the covenant.

They seem to be talking about the same guy. And it is pointed out that this week is targeted toward Daniel’s people, the Hebrews, and Jeremiah says this is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

And those in Judah that are told to flee can comprise all the Hebrew people. After all, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah shows us that all the tribes were commingled before and after the Babylonian Exile period.

iamlamad · Jun 4, 2019

Copperhead said:
The week begins at seal one. The “bow” can mean a covenant. Following the Law of First Mention in hermeneutics, the first mention of a bow is in Genesis after the flood. A Covenant. And following the Law of Expositional Constancy in hermeneutics, the bow of the first seal could be viewed as covenant. Conquering by covenant and decree, not by military force.

He is bringing forth and affirming the covenant.

Daniel 9:27, the week starts with a covenant being affirmed by the same guy who does the abomination at the mid point when he breaks the covenant.

They seem to be talking about the same guy. And it is pointed out that this week is targeted toward Daniel’s people, the Hebrews, and Jeremiah says this is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

And those in Judah that are told to flee can comprise all the Hebrew people. After all, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah shows us that all the tribes were commingled before and after the Babylonian Exile period.

The week begins at seal one. ONLY if you pull it out of its context of chapters 4 & 5, which show the timing of 32 AD: the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. It is not wise to pull verses out of their context so they can fit a theory. It is much wiser to form a theory from verses IN their context.

The “bow” can mean a covenant. The Greek word is TOXON from which we get toxic and toxicology. It originated from the poison put on the arrows. It is, without a doubt, to represent a weapon. How can a weapon represent a covenant?

The "bow" as in rainbow in Genesis is from the Hebrew word "qesheth" which means A bow of archers - still it is a weapon. But in Genesis it has the meaning of bending. God did not mean His sign of never flooding was to be any kind of weapon.

I might add, for the Bow at the first seal, Strong's suggest it was a bow such as might be tied around a package! A simple ribbon type bow. How could anyone get that from "toxon?" But that do I know? I have never created a concordance.

I guess in stretching one could guess this bow was a covenant, but the "bow" part of the verse is a small part of the entire verse. The main point of the verse is a white horse and rider. John used white 17 times in Revelation. Every other time was to represent righteousness. Therefore good exegesis would say the white horse MUST represent righteousness. If a covenant, God DID make a covenant with the church: that He would never leave them!

Following the context of 32 AD, what was the only entity on earth that was righteous in God's eyes? Only the church was righteous. The church had the Word of God, the mighty sword of the Spirit....hmmmm....a weapon! (Just thinking out loud here) This white horse and rider went forth overcoming and to overcome. The Greek word behind conquering - nikaō - was translated by the KJV 24 times as overcoming, twice as conquering.

Does it make sense the church would have to overcome to spread the gospel? One look at Paul's ministry should answer that question.

Conquering by covenant and decree, not by military force. the church overcomes by using spiritual weapons. We do not take up arms as in the crusades. I still have doubts that God was behind the crusades.

Daniel 9:27, the week starts with a covenant being affirmed by the same guy who does the abomination at the mid point when he breaks the covenant. This is true, but it has nothing to do with the white horse. You have pulled the first seal out of its first century context as so created a myth that it was about our future.

For those that imagine the first seal is about the Antichrst, then seal 5 becomes the martyrs of the 70th week. Take careful note, John has not yet left the church age, much less arrived at the 70th week. How do we know?

Think about it: they were asked when their death would be judged and avenged. If they were 70th week martyrs, the judgment would have already begun and they would surely know it. They would know they had only the rest of 7 years to wait. compare that with Stephen: He had no idea when the church age would end and judgment begin. It has now been almost 2000 years! What was told the martyrs fits the church age FAR better that trib martyrs.

And those in Judah that are told to flee can comprise all the Hebrew people. To imagine that all in Israel flee simply does not fit the scriptures. Who then would flee into the valley when Jesus touches down? Who would be the 2/3 that does not make it?

It seems you and I disagree on every point!

Copperhead · Jun 4, 2019

iamlamad said:
The week begins at seal one. ONLY if you pull it out of its context of chapters 4 & 5, which show the timing of 32 AD: the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. It is not wise to pull verses out of their context so they can fit a theory. It is much wiser to form a theory from verses IN their context.

The “bow” can mean a covenant. The Greek word is TOXON from which we get toxic and toxicology. It originated from the poison put on the arrows. It is, without a doubt, to represent a weapon. How can a weapon represent a covenant?

The "bow" as in rainbow in Genesis is from the Hebrew word "qesheth" which means A bow of archers - still it is a weapon. But in Genesis it has the meaning of bending. God did not mean His sign of never flooding was to be any kind of weapon.

I might add, for the Bow at the first seal, Strong's suggest it was a bow such as might be tied around a package! A simple ribbon type bow. How could anyone get that from "toxon?" But that do I know? I have never created a concordance.

I guess in stretching one could guess this bow was a covenant, but the "bow" part of the verse is a small part of the entire verse. The main point of the verse is a white horse and rider. John used white 17 times in Revelation. Every other time was to represent righteousness. Therefore good exegesis would say the white horse MUST represent righteousness. If a covenant, God DID make a covenant with the church: that He would never leave them!

Following the context of 32 AD, what was the only entity on earth that was righteous in God's eyes? Only the church was righteous. The church had the Word of God, the mighty sword of the Spirit....hmmmm....a weapon! (Just thinking out loud here) This white horse and rider went forth overcoming and to overcome. The Greek word behind conquering - nikaō - was translated by the KJV 24 times as overcoming, twice as conquering.

Does it make sense the church would have to overcome to spread the gospel? One look at Paul's ministry should answer that question.

Conquering by covenant and decree, not by military force. the church overcomes by using spiritual weapons. We do not take up arms as in the crusades. I still have doubts that God was behind the crusades.

Daniel 9:27, the week starts with a covenant being affirmed by the same guy who does the abomination at the mid point when he breaks the covenant. This is true, but it has nothing to do with the white horse. You have pulled the first seal out of its first century context as so created a myth that it was about our future.

For those that imagine the first seal is about the Antichrst, then seal 5 becomes the martyrs of the 70th week. Take careful note, John has not yet left the church age, much less arrived at the 70th week. How do we know?

Think about it: they were asked when their death would be judged and avenged. If they were 70th week martyrs, the judgment would have already begun and they would surely know it. They would know they had only the rest of 7 years to wait. compare that with Stephen: He had no idea when the church age would end and judgment begin. It has now been almost 2000 years! What was told the martyrs fits the church age FAR better that trib martyrs.

And those in Judah that are told to flee can comprise all the Hebrew people. To imagine that all in Israel flee simply does not fit the scriptures. Who then would flee into the valley when Jesus touches down? Who would be the 2/3 that does not make it?

It seems you and I disagree on every point!

I disagree. You will just have to live with that. I can.

Choose Wisely · Jun 4, 2019

iamlamad said:
You are mistaken: it is not that I make up things not backed by scripture; the truth is, my understanding of scripture differs from yours so much that you imagine I am making things up.

I don't have to imagine, not at all.

iamlamad said:
There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. Show us the verse or verses where you come up with this theory. It is ONLY a theory unless it can be proven by scripture.

James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Rom 11
1 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

iamlamad said:
Then there is the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection. Again, please show us scriptural proof. My bible reads that it will be some from Judea that flee into the wilderness and are protected, NOT all if Israel.

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

iamlamad said:
I declare that the 7th seal opens the 70th week because Jesus spoke words to me: after telling me I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked; He then told me I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked - because He would use the same marker.

It doesn't matter one bit what you declare.

iamlamad said:
I found the exact midpoint clearly marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. How? Daniel 9:27 tell us that the event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves.

You are in error. The Word does not say that daily sacrifice is taken away in the middle. It says in the midst of the week. Daniel 12 is pretty clear that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the week.

iamlamad said:
Paul tells us in 2 thes. 2 that the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple - where ONLY the High Priest can go, and that only once per year - and declare he is God - presumably the God of the Jews.
From our knowledge of the Old Testament, we know that when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies, the temple is desecrated and will then have to be cleansed. This will STOP the daily sacrifices. It will be the abomination that Jesus spoke of.

We could take your guess or we could go by what the word says.
Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

iamlamad said:
THEREFORE: when those in Judea SEE that abomination - SEE the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God - they will flee, exactly as God told them. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Therefore the TIMING of 12:6 will be seconds after the midpoint - or seconds after the abomination. If we back up verse by verse from 12:6 looking for a seal, or a trumpet or a vial, we come to the 7th trumpet. Therefore the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

Not even the slightest chance. The abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away.

iamlamad said:
The moment I found the 7th trumpet was God's marker for the midpoint, I flipped quickly to the 7th vial, and read these three words: "IT IS DONE." I knew then I had found what God had sent me to find. I then flipped quickly to the 7th seal, and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I thought, what a perfect way to begin the 70th week.

That is why I declare that the 70th week is marked by 7's. The 7th seal starts the week, the 7th vial ends the week - and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

If you disagree with the 7th seal, where do YOU think the week begins?

[/QUOTE] The 70thweek of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins. What you think is the tribulation is the wrath of God. The week starts after the pretribulation rapture when a covenant is confirmed. The 1st Seal will have been opened and the rider on the white horse will go forth conquering and to conquer.

iamlamad · Jun 5, 2019

Copperhead said:
I disagree. You will just have to live with that. I can.

: -))) I live very well without your agreement.

iamlamad · Jun 5, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
I don't have to imagine, not at all.
...
...
...

It doesn't matter one bit what you declare.

You are in error. The Word does not say that daily sacrifice is taken away in the middle. It says in the midst of the week. Daniel 12 is pretty clear that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the week.

We could take your guess or we could go by what the word says.
Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Not even the slightest chance. The abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away.

The 70thweek of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins. What you think is the tribulation is the wrath of God. The week starts after the pretribulation rapture when a covenant is confirmed. The 1st Seal will have been opened and the rider on the white horse will go forth conquering and to conquer.

You are comparing the 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe) as ALL of the 12 tribes. That is simply not the intent of the Author. You are now making things up. OF COURSE 12,000 from each tribe are caught up - in that we agree. But notice what you wrote:
"There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. "
It is only imagination that all of the 12 tribes are caught up. The truth is, only a small part of the 12 tribes are caught up. So who is making things up?

Again it seems you are imagining that all of Israel flees into the wilderness. You are mistaken if that is what you are saying.

Daniel 12 is pretty clear that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the week. This is MYTH: you are misunderstanding what Daniel wrote. You are trying to work backwards when Daniel was working forwards. His words are clear: the WEEK ends 1260 days from the exact midpoint the week. But another events will happen 30 days later. It could be when Jesus returns to fight.

Then Daniel tells of yet another event 45 days after that. That day could be the official opening of the millennial reign.

The Hebrew word means to divide in half. It is used many times in the Old Testament for "midnight." I agree, midnight might not divide the darkness exactly in half. But when John wrote 1260 days, we KNOW God will divide the week into two exact halves.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Not even the slightest chance. The abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away.

Not even the slightest chance you are correct here. The daily sacrifice will be taken away on day 1260 from the confirming of the covenant. It will happen because the man of sin will enter the temple, enter the most holy place, and declare HE is God. That will stop the daily sacrifices.

3.5 days before this the two witnesses will show up and testify for 1260 days.

Maybe 3 seconds AFTER the man of sin declares he is God, those in Judea will flee (certainly not ALL who live in Judea) for 1260 days.

Revelation makes it absolutely clear the week is divided into two equal halves. I know you THINK you are right That would be a good thing if you really were right.

The 70thweek of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins. What you think is the tribulation is the wrath of God. The week starts after the pretribulation rapture when a covenant is confirmed. The 1st Seal will have been opened and the rider on the white horse will go forth conquering and to conquer.

I can tell from this that you really don't know much about the 70th week. You don't know where in Revelation it starts and you probably don't know where it ends. Oh, you may THINK you know.

First, let's get the terms defined: "the tribulation" is the 70th week and the 70th week is "the tribulation." During the last half of "the tribulation" there will be many days of GREAT tribulation.

The wrath of God will begin immediately after the rapture as shown by John at the 6th seal. Once God begins wrath, His wrath will continue on until Jesus returns in chapter 19. Therefore all of chapters 8 through 19 are the wrath of God on earth. There is no time during that time that is NOT the wrath of God on the earth.

The 70th week or "the trib" begins at the 7th seal, so INSIDE the period of God's wrath.

The 70th week or "the trib" ENDS at the 7th vial in chapter 16. The vials, filled with God's wrath, will shorten the days of great tribulation, but the last 1260 days will continue until the 7th vial ends the week. Jesus has wrath when He descends as shown in chapter 19.

Seal 1 is the CHURCH sent out with the Gospel. NO WRATH here. God is not mad at the church.

Seals 2 - 4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. No wrath here either. It is the age of grace.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. God is NOT mad at the martyrs. No wrath yet.

Seal 6 BEGINS the wrath, but NO TRIBULATION or any part of the 70th week yet.

Now let's talk about the days of great tribulation: what will cause such days? It will be the Beast and False prophet (with the wrath of Satan behind them) creating an image and forcing all to bow to the image (think Nebuchadnezzar) or lose their head. Added to that will be a "mark" without which no one can buy or sell. AGain, all will be required to take this mark, or lose their head.

However, BEFORE the mark is created, God will send angels to warn every human in their own language that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire.

Therefore GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to take the mark. There will be no rain, and any fresh water will be turned into blood, so the only water to drink must be purchased - but that will require the mark. Thirst will be a powerful motivator! It is going to days of GREAT PRESSURE for people to take the mark.

WHERE in Revelation will be these days of GT? They will not start until AFTER God gives His warning, so after chapter 14. John shows us the beheaded people beginning to show up in heaven in chapter 15. The days of GT then will begin at the end of chapter 14.

This is John's chronology. If anyone is forced to rearrange this order to fit their theory - then their theory is bogus. Plain and simple.

|---------------1260 days----------------------|---------------1260 days-----------------|
Begin the week-----------------------------Midpoint-------------------------end the week.
7th seal-----------------------------------7th trumpet------------------------------7th vial.
|---------------1st 6 Trumpets----------------|-------------------1st 6 vials--------------|

|--Ten days---|--------------------------------------|
6th seal-------Begin the week---------------midpoint

The 70th week is marked by 7's. It is God's signature on it.

Choose Wisely · Jun 5, 2019

iamlamad said:
You are comparing the 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe) as ALL of the 12 tribes. That is simply not the intent of the Author.You are now making things up.

Do you have any understanding of first fruits and harvest? The 144,000 are the first fruits. That means the harvest will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Can't paint it any clearer than what God says.

iamlamad said:
But notice what you wrote:
"There are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth whose alive and dead are raptured before the wrath of God. "
It is only imagination that all of the 12 tribes are caught up. The truth is, only a small part of the 12 tribes are caught up. So who is making things up?

I understand that you don't understand the parable of the fig tree. You apparently don't believe God will keep His word to His people.

iamlamad said:
Again it seems you are imagining that all of Israel flees into the wilderness. You are mistaken if that is what you are saying.

Only those in the nation of Israel that flee as they are told to will get to a place of protection. The Church will be in heaven before the tribulation and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will be caught up immediately after the tribulation of those days. See Matthew 24, Rev 7 and Rev 14.

iamlamad said:
Daniel 12 is pretty clear that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the week. This is MYTH: you are misunderstanding what Daniel wrote. You are trying to work backwards when Daniel was working forwards. His words are clear: the WEEK ends 1260 days from the exact midpoint the week. But another events will happen 30 days later. It could be when Jesus returns to fight.

The Word speaks for itself. The sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. All the hem hawing around is not going to change those FACTS.

iamlamad said:
The Hebrew word means to divide in half. It is used many times in the Old Testament for "midnight." I agree, midnight might not divide the darkness exactly in half. But when John wrote 1260 days, we KNOW God will divide the week into two exact halves.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with when the daily sacrifice is taken away.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away.

iamlamad said:
3.5 days before this the two witnesses will show up and testify for 1260 days.

Maybe 3 seconds AFTER the man of sin declares he is God, those in Judea will flee (certainly not ALL who live in Judea) for 1260 days.

This is what I'm talking about..........making things up. Where do you come up with all this non scriptural conclusions

iamlamad said:
Revelation makes it absolutely clear the week is divided into two equal halves. I know you THINK you are right That would be a good thing if you really were right.

The beauty of it is I just put things where God says they go. Simple. If God says He is coming for a gathering before the day of the Lord, then why do we insist its the second coming. If God says Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood then I believe that. If God says the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes, I believe it. Everything fits perfectly when you realize that the tribulation is over before the wrath begins..........just like God says. If God says that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 and then 1290 days later the abomination of desolation occurs........that's what he means. Taking that big sledge hammer and pounding square pegs into round holes is not going to help you understand the Word. Things go where God says they go.

iamlamad said:
First, let's get the terms defined: "the tribulation" is the 70th week and the 70th week is "the tribulation." During the last half of "the tribulation" there will be many days of GREAT tribulation.

There will be great tribulation and it will be 45 days long..........just like it says.

iamlamad said:
The wrath of God will begin immediately after the rapture as shown by John at the 6th seal.

Immediately after the rapture of the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. The Church is already in heaven.........see Rev 5

.[/QUOTE]

iamlamad · Jun 6, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
Do you have any understanding of first fruits and harvest? The 144,000 are the first fruits. That means the harvest will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Can't paint it any clearer than what God says.

I understand that you don't understand the parable of the fig tree. You apparently don't believe God will keep His word to His people.

Only those in the nation of Israel that flee as they are told to will get to a place of protection. The Church will be in heaven before the tribulation and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will be caught up immediately after the tribulation of those days. See Matthew 24, Rev 7 and Rev 14.

The Word speaks for itself. The sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. All the hem hawing around is not going to change those FACTS.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with when the daily sacrifice is taken away.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away.
This is what I'm talking about..........making things up. Where do you come up with all this non scriptural conclusions

The beauty of it is I just put things where God says they go. Simple. If God says He is coming for a gathering before the day of the Lord, then why do we insist its the second coming. If God says Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood then I believe that. If God says the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes, I believe it. Everything fits perfectly when you realize that the tribulation is over before the wrath begins..........just like God says. If God says that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 and then 1290 days later the abomination of desolation occurs........that's what he means. Taking that big sledge hammer and pounding square pegs into round holes is not going to help you understand the Word. Things go where God says they go.

There will be great tribulation and it will be 45 days long..........just like it says.

Immediately after the rapture of the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. The Church is already in heaven.........see Rev 5

Of course there will be the firstfruits (the 144,000) and then the harvest. But the harvest will not come until after Jesus has arrived back on earth.

I understand that you don't understand the parable of the fig tree. You apparently don't believe God will keep His word to His people.
This is nonsense. Perhaps the problem is your theories are flaky. OF COURSE God is going to keep His word! Maybe our disagreement is WHEN. Take for example those from Judea that flee into the wilderness: that is not going to be all of Israel! It is going to be a small part. And those that flee will not be rescued until Jesus returns.

Sorry, Revelation 7 has NOTHING to do with the gathering of the elect that will happen after the trib' of those days. Rev. 14 will be ONLY the 144,000 caught up - somewhere near the midpoint of the week. You cannot lump the 144,000 with "the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth" Neither can you say the 144,000 are caught up the same time that the elect are gathered; these to two separate events that will happen some time apart - like 3.5 years apart.

The Word speaks for itself. The sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. All the hem hawing around is not going to change those FACTS. This is MYTH - but it seems you will just have to wait and see that it will happen on day 1260, NOT day 1185. The word speaks, but we must understand it. God knows how to divide in half: John's 1260 days proves this.

I guess you IMAGINE that man of sin will enter the temple and the daily sacrifices will just continue on. NOT! Or perhaps you imagine that the man of sin will enter the temple on day 1185. NOT! The man of sin is going to enter the temple on day 1260 and the daily sacrifices will stop at that moment in time. the temple will have to be cleansed. It will be the "abomination" that Jesus spoke of and the moment those in Judea must flee.

Jesus' words spoken to me:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years you will be very close to the midpoint of the week."

I know (and you should know) John gives us five different examples of events starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week. In your theory then, we should see 5 events with 1335 days associated. WRONG! We have 5 events that have 1260 days or 42 months, PROVING the abomination will divide the week into two equal halves.

You have TOTALLY misunderstood Daniel's 1335 days. That is for an event that will take place 1335 days AFTER the abomination that divides the week, or 75 days after the 7th vial that will END the week. In other words, the 1335 days are for an event AFTER Jesus has returned to earth. It might be the official start of the millennial kingdom.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Let's talk about this. I guess you just did not notice that it is NOT NOT NOT a "to / from" statement. It is talking about TWO events starting at the same time: the abomination CAUSES the daily sacrifices to cease.....AT THE SAME TIME; and then, 1290 days later is an event that was not told to Daniel and so Daniel did not tell us. Daniel was told that the WEEK ends on day 1260, but another event will happen 30 days later, and yet another 45 days after that.

Daniel already knew that the last half of the week would be time, times and the dividing of time or 3.5 years. The 1260 days was just confirming that. He already knew the starting point was verse 12:1 when the days of GT started. Now He is learning that it will start with an abomination that will stop the daily sacrifices. If he had written chapter 8 before he wrote chapter 12, he already knew that an abomination (Antiochus) would cause the daily sacrifice to cease. Did he know these would be two different occasions separate by thousands of years? I don't know.

We both use scripture - the very SAME scripture. It is how we understand those scriptures and what we DO with them that determine our differences. When these events come to pass, then you will know.

By the way, have you seen 1290 or 1335 anywhere in Revelation? If your 1185 theory was correct, it would see very likely John would have used those numbers.

If God says He is coming for a gathering before the day of the Lord, then why do we insist its the second coming.

He came the first time to die. He will come the second time only to the sky. The question is, why do we not call His coming to Armageddon His THIRD coming? (Paul certainly calls the rapture event a (coming.")

Everything fits perfectly when you realize that the tribulation is over before the wrath begins Here is where you go into MYTH. When Van Kampen called Rosenthal and said "I FOUND IT!" He had truely found nothing that was truth. But Rosenthal was not wise enough in scripture to show Van Kampen the error of his new doctrine, so began "prewrath." It was wrong from the start and it is STILL wrong.

For this theory to be correct, the days of great tribulation MUST (absolutely MUST) be during seals 1 through 5 in Revelation. Why? Because the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath starts at the 6th seal.

The truth is so far from this it is laughable! John is still in the church age, but you imagine it is end times. Go back in Matthew 24 and read Jesus words: "the end is not yet." Go back and study Revelation chapters 4 & 5 and learn the TIMING of the first seals: it was the very time Jesus ascended! It was around 32 AD. My friend, that is CHURCH AGE, not "end times." Seal 1 is the gospel sent out. Seals 2 through 4 is the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. Seal 5 are the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

The truth then is that you have swallowed a clever lie, and swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. By now your preconceived glasses are so thick you may never learn the truth until these events happen.

Here are some things that may help: NEVER Form doctrine from an Old Testament verse, if the New Testament covers the same thing. In other words, form your doctrine from the LATEST revelation from heaven on any subject. If you had started with the book of Revelation and formed your doctrine there, you would be far closer to the truth. God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more and more. Daniel has some of chapter 11 and chapter 12 covering the 70th week. Revelation has from chapter 8 to chapter 16! It is much more in-depth coverage.

Just to make sure you understand me: "Pre-wrath" theory as it is was started by Rosenthal and Van Kampen, and as it is taught today is BOGUS. It is a clever lie. Do you know what started it? Van Kampen did not understand the cosmic signs in Matthew were NOT THE SAME as the cosmic signs at the 6th seal. Rosenthal did not catch it either.

The truth is, the rapture will take place just before the 6th seal. Here Rosenthal was right. Then the Day of the Lord starts; actually the rapture will trigger the start of the Day. (Rev. 6) The raptured church was then seen in heaven. (Rev. 7)

Next, probably after 10 days of Awe, the 7th seal is opened that officially starts the 70th week. (in other words, "the trib" starts here.) (Rev. 8) The trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week. Then the abomination event will happen - and that moment in time will be marked in heaven by the sounding of the 7th trumpet. (Rev. 11)

Those in Judea will begin their flight. (12:6)

The Beast will emerge: the man of sin will be possessed by Satan. (Rev. 13)
The False Prophet will show up. (Rev. 13)
the 144,000 will be seen in heaven. (Rev 14)

God will send angels to warn all people that to take the mark will DOOM them to the lake of fire. Now, after the warning, the really bad days of great tribulation will BEGIN. The mark and the image is created by this time and now will be enforced. (Rev 15)

Finally, when the wrath of Satan reaches its peak, and the beheadings reach their peak, God will begin to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. (Rev. 16)

The kingdom is plunged into darkness (the cosmic signs of Matthew 24)

The 7th vial ends the 70th week. Jesus is NOWHERE to be seen on earth. (Rev. 16)

"Babylon" or the city of Jerusalem is destroyed. The cities of the world are also destroyed by the great earthquake.

The marriage and supper take place IN HEAVEN (Rev. 19)

Jesus comes (3rd coming) to the Battle of ARmageddon.

Did you notice how John marches straight through time in perfect chronology?

Prewrath theory is forced to REARRANGE all of the above to fit. That is one reason why it a a MYTH.

Copperhead · Jun 23, 2019

iamlamad said:
Of course there will be the firstfruits (the 144,000) and then the harvest. But the harvest will not come until after Jesus has arrived back on earth.

So then, there was no first fruits harvest on the feast of first fruits which is the day that Yeshua was resurrected? Matthew 27 seems to disagree with that.

Yeshua tells Mary, after His resurrection, not to touch Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father. As the High Priest, He would be required to remain ceremonially pure until He had offered the first fruits of the harvest as per Leviticus 23. Matthew 27 states that many "saints" were resurrected after Yeshua's resurrection. We have no other reference in scripture, but many of the early writers who were either in direct contact with the Apostles or their students stated that these saints were taken to the Father. The circumstantial evidence supports that these saints were the first fruits.

Later that day, Yeshua appears to many and tells them to touch Him to see that He is not a ghost or spirit. He had by then already fulfilled the Torah regarding the first fruits.

So it is possible that the "first fruits" were these saints. The main harvest occurs later, and then the gleaning harvest follows, as per the Torah. I see the main harvest as the removal of the dead and righteous saints redeemed from the time of Yeshua onward to before the start of the end times events. The gleanings harvest as being those redeemed during the tribulation period.

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