BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

nolidad · Jun 2, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Indeed brother so did I, that is why you were provided with the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 asking you what these scriptures means. I notice you did not respond to this question and the scripture there that talks about BELIEVERS who depart from God to return to a life of sin.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Well I missed it so let me answer it now!

First let me say all of Scripture is equally inspired by God but not all equally applicable.

Context is critical. And the context of Hebrews is to Jews in Israel right before Rome set siege to Jerusalem.

Many Jews had been brought to the point of knowing Jesus is the Messiah and that all the OT sacrifices and services were shadows of His one and only sacrifice! As the Jews were persecuting Jewish believers and even killing them- many of these who were "at the door" of salvation so to speak were thinking of returning to the law and sacrifices as what would please God! The writer was warning them to do so would only bring punishment and wrath.

But if we are to follow your doctrine- If someone should lose their salvation they could not get it back again according to this! And that is not true.

LoveGodsWord said:
ndeed brother not like some teach here, that salvation is cheap grace to continue in known unrepentant sin and count the blood of the convenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of grace by crucifying themselves the son of God afresh and putting him to open shame *HEBREWS 6:6; HEBREWS 10:29. Salvation is from sin, not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 3:4-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter the kingdom of heave because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Well I do not believe in cheap grace or easy believism, but I also know the Word of God teaches that once a person is saved, they have been once for all time translated out of darkness and into His kingdom, they have once for all time been justifies, glorifed, they are already eternally seated in heavenly places, and have the promise that Jesus who began a good work in them will perform it to that day!

And we are sealed until teh day of redemption.

Jesus has given us eternal life and we will never perish.

And NOTHING I repeat NOTHING can separate us from teh love of God in Christ.

LoveGodsWord said:
Yep many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

It is sad you did not pay attention to this verse>

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Words are important! And Jesus says to this crowd I NEVER knew you, not I KNEW YOU ONCE OR TWICE but don't know you now!

Don't let the spirit of pharasism corrupt your mind from the simple glorious truth of the gospel.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
The Bible does have an answer for those who fall away- 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

God's Word does indeed have an answer to those who fall away brother, but not by your interpretation of these scriptures.

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

v18, Anything that is against Christ is antichrist. The Greek word used here is ἀντίχριστος
antichristos which means against Christ of an opponent of the Messiah. If we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then we are an "UNBELIEVER" and against Christ because we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

As shown in the scriptures [19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? They went out from the truth. The problem was not that they went out from fellowship with the BELIEVERS. The problem was that they became "UNBELIEVERS" not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD!

The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers (ἀντίχριστος; antichristos; those who are against Christ and apponant of the Messiah. These are those who are AGAINST God's WORD.

They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (UNBELIEVERS). If they contunued with us then they would be of us (by continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word) and would have been of us. No longer believing and following God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us.

Let's now link these scriptures back to the previous post in JOHN 8:31-36. Do you remember the conditions that JESUS states for those who are His DISCIPLES and as PAUL says CONTINUED WITH US?

JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever. [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

They went out from us because they were not of us. They went out from us (disciples) because they did not CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. As a result of no longer BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD they left the truth.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word).

Hope this helps.

nolidad · Jun 2, 2019

setst777 said:
Setst RE: If you take the time to read the letters of the Apostles to the Churches, you will see that they were writing to the true believers – the elect ones in Christ. You cannot say that anytime warnings are given to the believers to remain faithful and not to fall away, that this was only written for non-believers. The Apostles wrote their letters to the Churches for teaching, encouragement and for warning. You cannot exclude the warnings just because you believe you are guaranteed your faith, which is un-Biblical. It is by your faith that you receive God's grace to begin with.

No eternal security is very biblical.

If one can sin their way out of salvation- the simply Jesus did ot die for all their sins, but only some!

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abide on him.

Nearly every verse you cited to say one could lose their salvation is either concerning rewards or for punishment by sin in this life!

No matter how you wish to manipulate it, people who say you have to maintain your salvation by avoiding sin and doing obedience has added to the gospel.

Paul in Galatians showed clearly we are not saved by adherence to works nor are we kept saved by adherence to works.

This philosophy of man makes Jesus a fool! Knowing from eternity post that people would lose their salvation, he saves them just to lose them after He said that all that were given to HIm He would lose none of them.

nolidad · Jun 2, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
God's Word does indeed have an answer to those who fall away brother, but not by your interpretation of these scriptures.

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Now reread the passage. Carefully this time!

1.THEY WERE NOT OF US
2. IF THEY WERE THEY WOULD HAVE STAYED
3. THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US.

The people who left were never believers!!!!

Remember this parable:

Matt. 13:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now if you believe God knows the beginning from the end- then you must accept this:

Believers are chosen and predestined from before the He created the universe. Why would He predestine and choose someone just to unchoose them?

Why would He make them a child of God only to unmake them?
Why would He seal them only to unseal them?
Why would He adopt them only to unadopt them?

Why would He say NOTHING could separate us from His love- when you say there are things that can separate us from His love?

setst777 · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
No eternal security is very biblical.

If one can sin their way out of salvation- the simply Jesus did ot die for all their sins, but only some!

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abide on him.

Nearly every verse you cited to say one could lose their salvation is either concerning rewards or for punishment by sin in this life!

No matter how you wish to manipulate it, people who say you have to maintain your salvation by avoiding sin and doing obedience has added to the gospel.

Paul in Galatians showed clearly we are not saved by adherence to works nor are we kept saved by adherence to works.

This philosophy of man makes Jesus a fool! Knowing from eternity post that people would lose their salvation, he saves them just to lose them after He said that all that were given to HIm He would lose none of them.

Hi nolidad,

I noticed you were unable to respond to any of the Passages I gave to show:

1) what true faith in Christ is, and
2) that we must remain faithful to the end to receive eternal life, and
3) that faith means you are now walking by Christ's Spirit living in you to receive life, and
4) that those who do not remain faithful can be lost and cut off and severely punished.

You have responded to none of theses, so either you agree with all I wrote, or you are just turning a blind eye to God to hold onto your traditions.

I also have shown by Scripture that:

1) you only receive the Spirit by faith, and
2) regeneration is only by the Spirit you receive by faith, but
3) only as you walk by that Spirit in you to receive Life

Nothing was responded to. So either you agree or you are deliberately ignoring God's Word to hold onto your traditions.

Instead you provide Scriptures that say nothing about eternal security.

John 3:16-18 clearly shows that only those of faith receive eternal life - Whosoever Believes. This says nothing about all the warnings to Christians to remain in the faith to be saved, and that they must be worthy to receive life.

Romans 10:9-10 clearly show that we are saved to begin with because we believe in Jesus, and this faith must lead us to righteousness...

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Sin is not the issue- A person is not saved because they stop sinning. Your doctrine is simply a variant of Jesus gets us in the door but we have to maintain our salvation by doing good deeds and avoiding bad deeds.

Well that is not true brother. You claim sin is not an issue? If sin (breaking any one of God's Commandments) is not an issue then why did JESUS have to come to our world to die on the cross for our sins? Who said a person is saved because they stop sinning? Can we stop sinning without JESUS? Even if we could what about all of our past sins? What is the Gospel for?

OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved dear brother, it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God. What do you think the meaning of JOHN 8:31-36 means? The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

According to God's WORD sin is a very big issue indeed and all those who continue to practice it are going to be very dissappointed come judgment day *HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 7:22-23. The good news of the gospel is that JESUS came to save us from our sins not to continue in them *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 6; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10.

Something to pray about dear brother. All those who continue in know unrepentant sin will be disappointed come judgment day. These scriptures are only posted and sent in love and as a help to you.

God's Sheep Hear his Voice (the Word).

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Indeed brother so did I, that is why you were provided with the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 asking you what these scriptures means. I notice you did not respond to this question and the scripture there that talks about BELIEVERS who depart from God to return to a life of sin.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Your response..

nolidad said:
Well I missed it so let me answer it now! First let me say all of Scripture is equally inspired by God but not all equally applicable.
Context is critical.

Context is indeed critical your point here is? Your arguing here that in reference to the scriptures provided to you earlier in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 is not applicable? Why? They are direct WARNINGS to BELIEVERS not to depart from the faith back to a life of sin. Very applicable I think to the OP and the discussion here don't you think brother? Then we read...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

and again..

1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 Now ALL THESE THINGS happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come.

I believe God's WORD how about you?

nolidad said:
And the context of Hebrews is to Jews in Israel right before Rome set siege to Jerusalem. Many Jews had been brought to the point of knowing Jesus is the Messiah and that all the OT sacrifices and services were shadows of His one and only sacrifice! As the Jews were persecuting Jewish believers and even killing them- many of these who were "at the door" of salvation so to speak were thinking of returning to the law and sacrifices as what would please God! The writer was warning them to do so would only bring punishment and wrath. But if we are to follow your doctrine- If someone should lose their salvation they could not get it back again according to this! And that is not true.

Well that is not true brother. Hmm seems somone is trying to argue that not all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness and all these things did not really happened to them for our examples: and they are not written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 1 CORINTHIANS 10:11? So brother you do not believe all the Word of God here?

Let me ask you again more clearly is HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 a WARNING to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS?

God's Sheep Heart His Voice (the Word).

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Now reread the passage. Carefully this time!

I did the first time thanks brother showing you why you missapplied the scriptures in post # 102 linked. Seems you do not believe it.

nolidad said:
1.THEY WERE NOT OF US 2. IF THEY WERE THEY WOULD HAVE STAYED 3. THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US.

The scripture says...

1 JOHN 2:18-19 [18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What made them not of us was that they went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. These scriptures do not say as you claim that they were never of "US" (BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD) as you are claiming brother. The reason they are NOT BELIEVERS is because they went out from us idicates at one state they were of "US" being a reference to "BELIEVERS" The reason they are not of us as stated in the very scripturs quoted is that they did not CONTINUE with us (BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD). A more detailed response to your claims is provided in post # 102 linked. You simply chose to ignore it. So I will leave that between you and God. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you. I only hope to see you in God's Kingdom and is the reason for sharing God's WORD with you.

nolidad said:
The people who left were never believers!!!!

Where does it say in 1 JOHN 2:18-19 that those people being spoken of were NEVER BELIEVERS? How could they go out from "US" if they they were never believers to begin with. These scriptures do not say they were never believers now brother do they? It only says because they went out from us and did not continue with us as BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD they were are not of us. The being of us here is in reference to CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (present tense).

Where those in HEBREWS 6:4-8 BELIEVERS that went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD? You know they are and that is why you cannot address these scriptures.

God bless

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Also in Matt. 7: Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Nowhere do we see even implied that Jesus would say, I knew you once but I don't know you now!

The CONTEXT of MATTHEW 7:22-23 is the second coming v22 "In that day". In that day many who profess the name of JESUS but did not follow him, will find themselves outside of God's KINGDOM and not a part of the redeemed. Why? v23 BECAUSE they practiced known unrepentant sin.

The Greek word for KNEW (G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō) is different to the english word and has many applications G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō, ghin-oce´-ko; is a prol. form of a prim. verb; to “know” (absol.), in a great variety of applications and with many impl. (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):—allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know; (-ledge), known; perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

Those who professed to KNOW (same word G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō) JESUS in MATTHEW 7:22-23 were basing their claims to His people by the signs and wonders they did and their great and wonderful works v22.

The response from JESUS was "depart from me you who work sin I was never aware and do not know you as my people" present tense v23. Why because they practice sin

This linked directly to...

2 TIMOTHY 3:19 [19], Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Those who God declares are His at the second coming are those who DEPART from INIQUITY through KNOWING GOD. Those who do not depart from INIQUITY or depart from God's WORD therefore do not know God.

This also links directly to...

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [4], [3], And hereby we do know that we know (same word G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō) him, if we keep his commandments.[4], He that said, I know him (same word G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō), and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and again...

1 JOHN 3:6 [6], Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known (same word G1097; γινώσκω ginōskō) him.

So the thought here is that there is no claim to knowing God and being a part of God's people while continuing in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN. The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity *2 TIMOTHY 3:19. How does God know who his people are? They DEPART from INIQUITY (sin). Those who do not depart from sin do not know God and he NEVER KNOWS us as His people. The context here is NEVER KNOWING THOSE WHO PRACTICE SIN AS HIS PEOPLE!

This is the claim being made to JESUS. We are your people because we have done these great Works. JESUS is SAYING you are NEVER MY my people and I have never known those who practice sin as my people!

According to God's WORD it is only those who DEPART FROM SIN that can lay claim to KNOWING GOD in the "present tense" because it is JESUS who saves them from their sins.
Those who once knew God but left God to continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN went back to not KNOWING God.

MATTHEW 7:23 links to 1 JOHN 3:6; Whosoever abides in him sins not; whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Does this mean that a born again believer has never known God if he has sinned? Of course not. It means that the reason we sin is because we do not abide in him and His Word did not abide in us which keeps us from sin. It is because we do not abide in him (the Word) that we do not know him

To know God is to BELIEVE and FOLLOW Him. Those who do not know God do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW him or hear His Voice.

By continuing in sin (present tense) JESUS is stating that he is not aware of them or their claims to being His people. The scriptures is not stating that they once knew him and followed him and departed from him.

The GREEK Word for NEVER being οὐδέποτε; oudepote From G3761 and G4218; not even at any time, that is, never at all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.

JESUS is saying NEVER, NOTHING or at any time are you my people if you are WORKING SIN (present tense)! JESUS is stating that he NEVER KNOWS ANYONE at anytime who profess to be His people while praticing sin and the condemnation is pronounced by JESUS who says that he never knows those who profess to be his people if they practice known unrepentant sin "workers of iniquity," (sin) DEPART from me.

.............

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
And we are sealed until teh day of redemption.

Brother does the scripture say we are sealed until the day of redemtion?

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to/for/unto (parallel translations) the day of redemption.

The scriptures here do not say we are sealed until the day of redemption the same as the scripture does not say BELIEVERS cannot FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. We are warned all through the NEW TESTAMENT and OLD TESTAMENT scriptures that BELIEVERS can FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD to become "UNBELIEVERS"

BELIEVERS are warned in *HEBREWS 3:7-19 not to have an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" doing so is to depart from the living God (v12). Then BELIEVERS are warned in ACTS 20:28-30 that after the departing of Paul that grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock and stating that of your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. The same warnings are repeated in *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 not to let any man DECEIVE us because before the second coming there will be a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS from the truth of God's WORD because they did not receive a love of the truth *2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10.

In 2 PETER 2:20-22 BELIEVERS are warned again about prophets and teachers who were once BELIEVERS who knew the way of righteousness and turned from the way of truth who now bring in false teachings to true believers. In GALATIANS 1:6 we are told about BELIEVERS turning from the grace of Christ to another gospel. These warnings are confirmed onces again to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 2:1-3 stating that we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip and that if we neglect our salvation; with every transgression and dosobedience receiving it's own reward.

BELIEVERS are further warned in *HEBREWS 10:26-31 that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The same warnings continue to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 10:35-39 not to cast away their confidence and if any man draws back to pedition they will not be saved. BELIEVERS are also warned of the many different ways we can FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in LUKE 8:11-15.

Then we have this warning to BELIEVERS in...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

NOTE: The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures. Continuing in v5 and have tasted the good word of God and the world to come. So the context here is very clear stating that these people were converted BELIEVERS that were enlightened with Gods' WORD and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and the power of the world to come. Now wait for it v6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. The IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS in the Word of GOD and who RECEIVED the HOLY Spirit!

Here once again in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we have a DIRECT WARNING to BELIEVERS who had received God's SPIRIT and fall back to a life of sin. Now brother be honest with yourself and consider these scriptures prayerfully as they go directly against what you are trying to teach here and you have not been able to respond to these scriptures since we have started our conversation.

Ok we can keep on going as there is many more scriptures in the NEW TESTAMENT and we have not even started on any of the scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT.

(please let me know if you need some scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT?)

The point is here that is God's Word gives so many WARNINGS to BELIEVERS NOT TO FALL AWAY don't you think it is possible BELIEVERS can fall away and depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD and return back to a life of sin?

I pray these scriptures may only be a blessing to you brother as this post is only sent in love and as a help.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God).

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Now if you believe God knows the beginning from the end- then you must accept this: Believers are chosen and predestined from before the He created the universe. Why would He predestine and choose someone just to unchoose them?

You are confused here brother. God knowing the end and future and who would accept His free gift of salvation does not mean God pre-chooses who will be saved or not saved without the freewill of those who choose to be saved and the free will of those who do not wish to be saved now does it?

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19], I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.

JOSHUA 24:15 [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Now brother if God already pre-chose everyone why the great commission to preach the Gosple in all the World. Your claims here are against the scriptures.

nolidad said:
Why would He make them a child of God only to unmake them?

He doesn't we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's WORD or not believe and follow God's WORD. That is why the scriptures teach many are called but few are chosen and only those who by faith alone ENDURE temptation to the end will be saved *MATTHEW 22:14; MATTHEW 24:13; JAMES 1:12. Those who fall away become unbelievers and do not enter the kingdom of heaven *LUKE 8:13; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 2 PETER 3:17; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3

nolidad said:
Why would He seal them only to unseal them?

Because those who choose to fall away and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD GRIEVE and QUENCH (put out) the HOLY Spirit and sin separates them from God's presence so that God will no longer hear them unless they repent of their sins and seek JESUS for forgiveness of their sins *1 JOHN 2:1-4. Detailed response on GRIEVING and QUENCHING (putting out) the Spirit of God already provided with full scripture support in post # 87 linked. Seems you simply ignored it. These were God's WORD brother not mine.

nolidad said:
Why would He adopt them only to unadopt them?

Already answered in the first two responses above. God does not leave those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW Him. It is only those who choose not to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God that he leaves to themselves. *ISAIAH 59:2; PROVERBS 28:9

nolidad said:
Why would He say NOTHING could separate us from His love- when you say there are things that can separate us from His love?

Already answered above. Nothing can separate us from His Love. Believers and unbelievers. For God so loved the world that he gave us his only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life *JOHN 3:16. God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved.

Hope this helps.

nolidad · Jun 2, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
What made them notof us was that they went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. These scriptures do not say as you claim that they were never of "US" (BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD) as you are claiming brother. The reason they are NOT BELIEVERS is because they went out from us idicates at one state they were of "US" being a reference to "BELIEVERS" The reason they are not of us as stated in the very scripturs quoted is that they did not CONTINUE with us (BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD). A more detailed response to your claims is provided in post # 102 linked. You simply chose to ignore it. So I will leave that between you and God. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you. I only hope to see you in God's Kingdom and is the reason for sharing God's WORD with you.

Yes the Scriptures do say they were not of us! Ever! the verbs tell us so! YOur explanation is an opinion taught you that was forced on the Scriptures!

nolidad · Jun 2, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Where does it say in 1 JOHN 2:18-19 that those people in were NEVER BELIEVERS? How could they go out from "US" if they they were never believers to begin with. These scriptures do not say they were never believers now brother do they? It only says because they went out from us and did not continue with us as BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD they were are not of us. The being of us here is in reference to CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (present tense).

Where those in HEBREWS 6:4-8 BELIEVERS that went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD? You know they are and that is why you cannot address these scriptures.

Simple! the language tell us they were never part of the body- for if they were they would have stayed.
Same with Jesus parable of the enemy sowing tares! Though they look like wheat for a long time- they never were wheat! Same with these who left- it proves they were not part of the body.

And Hebrews six, both in context and in language especially the words: "
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

when looked at in the original show that these people were in teh pre-salvific work of the holy spirit, brought to the place where they were clearly shown Jesus as Messiah, but were considering rejecting His Messiahship to return to the law as a source of their justification. that is the point of Hebrews! To show Jesus is better than the law and more able to save!

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Simple! the language tell us they were never part of the body- for if they were they would have stayed.

Well that is not true brother as already shown in the previous posts. The reason they were not of us the scripture states was that they did not continue with us as BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD. Going out from us they went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. The scripture does not state anywhere that those in questions were not once BELIEVERS or they would not have been of able to go out from us (believers and followers).

HEBREWS 6:4-8 is a direct reference to BELIEVERS departing from the faith. You struggle with this alot don't you brother. Not to mention the many other scripture warnings to BELIEVERS not to fall away and depart from the faith already provided throughout this thread and the OP already provided.

nolidad said:
Same with Jesus parable of the enemy sowing tares! Though they look like wheat for a long time- they never were wheat! Same with these who left- it proves they were not part of the body.

This is a parable that does not teach what you are saying at all. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats are only a reference to those who are God's people and the children of the devil. This is not revealed until the harvest when they are separated.

nolidad said:
And Hebrews six, both in context and in language especially the words: " 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"
when looked at in the original show that these people were in teh pre-salvific work of the holy spirit, brought to the place where they were clearly shown Jesus as Messiah, but were considering rejecting His Messiahship to return to the law as a source of their justification. that is the point of Hebrews! To show Jesus is better than the law and more able to save!

You may need to revisit your thinking here brother as nothing you have provided above here is true. Let's see why...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep their end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN. Not sure why your having problems here brother to be honest.

The scriptures above are only provided in love and as w help brother.

God's sheep hear his voice (the Word)

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2019

nolidad said:
Yes the Scriptures do say they were not of us! Ever! the verbs tell us so! YOur explanation is an opinion taught you that was forced on the Scriptures!

Well that is not true. If that were the case how can they go out from us (believers)? They must have been first of us before they went out of us right? Just like HEBREWS 4:6-8 states. Yes all verbs does not change the meaning of the scriptures shared with you. Going out from us believers is a verb

nolidad · Jun 3, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is not true. If that were the case how can they go out from us (believers)? They must have been first of us before they went out of us right? Just like HEBREWS 4:6-8 states. Yes all verbs does not change the meaning of the scriptures shared with you. Going out from us believers is a verb

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The bible says they went out from us but were not of us. I won't add beyong that simple statement!

If you feel that you have to add the rest of your statement, that is you rissue, but not Gods' Word.

nolidad · Jun 3, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is not true brother as already shown in the previous posts. The reason they were not of us the scripture states was that they did not continue with us as BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD. Going out from us they went out from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. The scripture does not state anywhere that those in questions were not once BELIEVERS or they would not have been of able to go out from us (believers and followers).

HEBREWS 6:4-8 is a direct reference to BELIEVERS departing from the faith. You struggle with this alot don't you brother. Not to mention the many other scripture warnings to BELIEVERS not to fall away and depart from the faith already provided throughout this thread and the OP already provided.

This is a parable that does not teach what you are saying at all. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats are only a reference to those who are God's people and the children of the devil. This is not known until the harvest when they are separated.

You may need to revisit your thinking here brother as nothing you have provided above here is true. Let's see why...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN. Not sure why your having problems here brother to be honest.

The scriptures above are only provided in love and as w help brother.

God's sheep hear his voice (the Word)

do a word study. I believed the way you did as well for years. Until I studied out the passage and looked in the original language, then I learned these were not Jewish believers, but Jews brought to the "edge" so to speak of salvation. It is all based on the words God inspired and not how we look at them with a 21st century mindset.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2019

nolidad said:
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The bible says they went out from us but were not of us. I won't add beyong that simple statement!

If you feel that you have to add the rest of your statement, that is you rissue, but not Gods' Word.

Hello brother nolidad, nice to see you again

.

Sorry brother with all love and respect and I say this to you as a brother with all sincereity, your only repeating yourself again. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. This has already been addressed over a few pages already and most recently in detail in post # 102 linked showing the within scripture context linking in with the very words of JESUS in JOHN 8:31-36 on the conditions of being a disciple *(v31 CONTINUING IN HIS WORD). Those who went out from the BELIEVERS did not CONTINUE with us (IN HIS WORD).

I have added nothing to the scriptures except read them as they are. Your reading the scriptures through a belief system that says that someone who is a believer can never fall away to become an unbeliever. God's Word does not say anywhere that a believer stays a believer forever unconditionally and cannot fall away to become an unbeliever.

God's WORD says from GENESIS to REVELATIONS all through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures that BELIEVERS can fall away to become UNBELIEVERS. We are warned about this all through God's WORD. There is a reason for these warnings. To reject these warnings brother is to do so at our own peril. Highlighting "they" within the scriptures makes no difference to the interpretation of what you are promoting because at they end of the day it is the going out from "US" (believers; the faith; the Word of God) that made them not of us and you cannot deny that because that is what the scriptures say.

Thanks for sharing though brother nolidad

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2019

nolidad said:
do a word study. I believed the way you did as well for years. Until I studied out the passage and looked in the original language, then I learned these were not Jewish believers, but Jews brought to the "edge" so to speak of salvation. It is all based on the words God inspired and not how we look at them with a 21st century mindset.

Not at all brother I read God's Word in the Spirit claiming God's promises for NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:27. I have looked at the scriptures bother in the original language and context with linkages to other scriptures. It does not say what your saying. It says no where that these people that went out were not believers at some stage although going out (from the faith) they became unbelievers is indeed true. Also, the scriptures do not say a believer cannot fall away to become an unbeliever. Supporting scriptures were provided in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 showing this and all through this OP that state the very opposite of what your claiming in these scriptures. Does this not worry you brother nolidad? God has provided us with these warnings for a reason as posted and shown earlier. It would be foolish for us to ignore them when our salvation may be at stake don't you think brother? Something to pray about.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

BrotherD · Jun 3, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Not at all brother I read God's Word in the Spirit claiming God's promises for NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:27. I have looked at the scriptures in bother the original language and context with linkages to other scriptures. It does not say what your saying. It says no where that these people that went out were not believers at some stage although going out they became unbelievers. Also, the scripture does not say a believer cannot fall away to become an unbeliever. Yet we read supporting scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 and all through this OP that state the very opposite of what your claiming in these scriptuers. Does this not worry you brother nolidad? God has provided us with this warnings for s reason. It would be foolish for us to ignore them when our salvation may be at stake don't you think brother? Something to pray about.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Hello LGW.

Question, could somebody have his Holy Spirit and still blaspheme it? Also what is blaspheme of his Holy Spirit, and what makes it unpardonable?

I know the example in Mark 3:22-30 about blaspheme of the Spirit, are there any more?

God Bless and Thank You.

BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

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Thus Saith The Lord

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