Christianity and blood sacrifice

ewq1938

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How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such.

Priests did that and that was in Judaism only. Let's be honest here: Your beliefs against blood sacrifices are not biblical and are contrary to Judaism's and Christianity's beliefs and history.
 
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Mathetes66

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You are very welcome. Here are my comments to your last post. First of all, Jesus is both man & God. As God He willingly gave His life, being sent by the Father as the Last Adam, to reconcile all things, both visible & invisible, by His perfect death, burial & resurrection out from among the dead. Romans 5 shows this clearly for one of the main reasons why Christ suffered, died & rose again & the contrast between the first Adam & the last Adam, Christ.

"You said: Christ DID NOT HAVE TO nor did He really want to go through the torture humiliation and murder, but out of Love for us did it."

Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT! Without it there is no salvation, there is no redemption, there is no reconciliation between God & mankind. As I showed, this was already pre-determined before the universe was even created. When the first Adam sinned, the whole universe came under the law of sin & death & corruption. Man was now an enemy of God & in rebellion to Him & His holy commands, separated & alienated from God because of His sins & spiritually dead, not having the life of God. All were by nature children of wrath. (Eph 2)

THAT is the bad news of Scripture. Man cannot redeem himself nor make himself right with God. He is lost, helpless & alienated from God because of his sin & rebellion.

Romans 5:6 For while we were STILL HELPLESS, at the right time Christ DIED for the ungodly. For if while we were ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God through the DEATH of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT because the whole of the Old Testament (OT) PROPHESIED THAT HE WOULD & Christ must fulfill ALL these prophecies in order to be the Messiah promised & the suffering Messiah predicted, that would go through all these things. God doesn't lie. It had to happen just as it was prophesied! 100%. Or there would be no salvation, no reconciliation, no righteous sacrifice that would atone for sin & satisfy the holy justice of God & meet His legal requirements for unrighteous human beings being justified before God.

Christ DID HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT to demonstrate that He is the only One who was perfect, who never sinned while being human on this earth, the Lamb of God without blemish or defect, holy & perfect in all His ways. It is obvious that as a human being, it was something that He didn't want to to face. But what was the thing He didn't want to face? You apparently did not understand Hebrews 12 as seen in your various statements.

"The writers say “endure” and “scorning its shame” suggesting a huge displeasure?"

Your misunderstanding of 'scorning its shame' is monumental. It actually means the opposite of what you are saying! The word "despising" is from a Greek word 'kataphroneo' & the Greek Lexicon defines it as meaning to "think little or nothing of."

Christ thought little or nothing of the shame of the cross. Why? Because Christ had nothing to be ashamed of! They were all false accusations! He had already made Himself of no reputation, humbling Himself & taking on the form of a Servant & even death on a cross.

Christ's mind was on other things while on the cross: the taking care of His mother, those who has crucified Him & were mocking Him, asking the Father to forgive them. He was thinking of the repentant thief crucified next to Him.

What truly caused our Lord to shrink from what He was facing? Since it obviously WASN'T the shame concerning the cross, then what was it? THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD FELL ON CHRIST. He also had to be cut off from the land of the living & experience the power of death in Hades for us & then conquer it.

Isaiah 53:4-12 Surely He took on our infirmities & carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down & afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him & by His stripes we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way & the LORD has caused the iniquities of us all to FALL ON HIM. He was oppressed & afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter & as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth. By oppression & JUDGMENT He was taken away & who can recount His descendants? For He was cut off from the land of the living; He was stricken FOR THE TRANSGRESSION OF MY PEOPLE.

9He was assigned a grave with the wicked & with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. YET IT WAS THE LORD'S WILL TO CRUSH & CAUSE HIM TO SUFFER, WHEN HIS SOUL IS MADE A GUILT OFFERING [for mankind}

He will SEE HIS OFFSPRING, He will prolong His days & the GOOD PLEASURE OF THE LORD WILL PROSPER IN HIS HAND. After the anguish of His soul, He will SEE THE LIGHT OF LIFE & BE SATISFIED. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will JUSTIFY MANY & HE WILL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES.

Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great & He will divide the spoils with the strong, because He has poured out His life unto death & He was numbered among the transgressors. Yet He bore the sin of many & made INTERCESSION for the transgressors. (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

Christ experienced as a human being what it was like to be separated from God, alienated & experienced God's righteous judgment for all the sins of the world that fell on Him. He remained God throughout it, but could say as a human being, 'why have you forsaken me.'


"Does a soldier really want to give up his life in battle to save his comrades, but will out of Love for them? He was not happy doing it."

Here again you seem not to understand giving up one's life for another, especially in war. The thought of not liking it doesn't enter the mind but the willingness to sacrifice one's life for others he loves is the foremost. He would gladly give up his life for another, just as Christ did.

And most decisions are made in a matter of a few seconds--showing this decision has ALREADY BEEN MADE PRIOR TO making the sacrifice of one's life for another.

That is the JOY set before the soldier & that is the joy set before our Lord: His sacrifice leading to the salvation of millions; His shed blood purchasing people from every tribe & language & nation! He reconciliation of all things both visible & invisible! His undoing what the first Adam did.

"Would it have been better: if people could fulfill their earthly objective without sinning & thus not needing Christ to going to the cross (another way) or would that have taken the pleasure of helping people away from Christ?"

Those are just speculations that have nothing to do with the reality of the truth, as I have already shown. Christ wasn't just 'helping' us--He literally rescued us from the slavemarket of sin--He took the wrath of God for us rebellious & wicked people. He Himself reconciled unreconcilable people.

"What makes Christ’s blood “precious”, if Christ did not value that blood in His veins?"

Again you seem to think Christ did not value that blood in His veins? Where did you get such an idea that is foreign to the truth of Scripture. Christ humbled Himself as God becoming a man in every way like us, without sin. He CHOSE to tabernacle among us, He CHOSE to experience what we experience. Every drop of His blood was precious to Himself as well as to us because it was the very means by which we are redeemed & purchased & bought & justified before the living God.


The joy set before Christ had nothing to do with DISCIPLINE or going through it WITH us. He went through it FOR US not with us. It is what He did, not what we did. We can do nothing to save ourselves. He is the One who saves us.

Second, Christ brought redemption & taking away the sin of the world, for separated people from God (not His children but children of wrath) so that they COULD BE made right with Him upon their repentance & faith in the once for all sacrificial death, burial & resurrection of Christ.

Only THEN could we be given the power & right to BECOME ADOPTED children of God & no longer facing the wrath & condemnation of God through faith in His shed blood & life.

Heb 12:7,8 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left WITHOUT discipline, in which all have participated, THEN YOU ARE ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN & NOT SONS.


"Again what makes it “precious” (Hard to give up)?"

Precious does NOT mean hard to give up! Precious means something 'highly treasured, something of great value that is highly esteemed & cherished. ' It means something of great value & worth like Jesus showed in some of His parables. It is so precious that all other things ARE WILLINGLY GIVEN UP in comparison to this precious treasure!

Matt 13:44-46 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, & then IN HIS JOY went & sold all he had & bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of GREAT VALUE, he went away & SOLD EVERYTHING HE HAD & BOUGHT IT.

"Death comes after the torture, humiliation & murder of Christ & it is really when the atonement sacrifice stopped, as Jesus said before His death 'it is finished'."

Again you are not accurate as to what Scripture teaches. Christ's atoning sacrifice DIDN'T STOP--it is continuing to be applied to us in all phases of our salvation: saving us from the penalty of sin, saving us now by conquering the power of sin in our lives & will be the future in saving us from the presence of sin & being in glory with our Lord.

So in one sense, 'His hour had come & was completed or finished.' But His atonement & sacrifice CONTINUED AFTER DEATH. He had to conquer death. No resurrection, no life in the Spirit. He had to proclaim His victory to the spirits in prison & over all the forces of evil in the heavenly places. He also had to redeem & take 'captivitity captive' & remove all those in Hades that were believers & take all of them in Paradise up into the third heaven, to be with Him.

Now none of us dying will have to go to hades, we will go directly into the presence of the Lord!

Third, as a faithful High Priest of the New Covenant in the Melchizedek priesthood, His atoning sacrifice continues, because He now lives to continually make intercession for His people.

Heb 7:22-26 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but He holds His priesthood permanently, because He continues forever.

Consequently, He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners & exalted above the heavens.

What I felt was great gratitude for what Christ did for me & still do every time I think of it. I cried tears of joy because He saved me & gave me eternal life & I was willing to do anything for Him in return. It was not a tragedy but a TRIUMPH!

Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2 Cor 4:14-17 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession & through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of Him everywhere. For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved & those who are perishing; to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?

It is apparent you also do not understand 'the fellowship of His sufferings' as Paul expressed it.

Phil 1:29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for Him.

Knowing Christ as more important than anything in this life includes the power of His resurrection & the fellowship or koinonia or what we have in common with Christ--sharing His sufferings, filling up what is lacking right now in the body of Christ & also our fellow brethren suffering around the world because of their witness for Christ to a world that hates Him & us. We suffer as HIS BODY, with Him as the Head.

"God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. I do not like the word “unpunished” since the same Greek word also means “undisciplined."

Again you pull this out of context, ignoring the whole context of chapter 3 of Romans & want to change the remission of punishment to simply mean undisciplined, which in the context does not mean that at all. What God did was overlook the sins of those before the Law & those nations without the Law. This is with a clear view of what Christ was going to do on the cross.

God had to be BOTH righteous & holy & just to punish sin & yet also the justifier of those who put their faith in the Messiah both before the cross & after the cross. God did not remove the punishment for the prior sins--all are held accountable, none is righteous, no not even one--but passed them over until the final atonement was made in Christ's once for all sacrifice, who took the punishment upon Himself.

Thus God could be both Just in holding all accountable & at the same time be the Justifier of the guilty by the sacrifice of Christ's perfect life, His substitutionary death, burial & resurrection.

The word propitiation is used there as well, which is the reality of true satisfaction of God's wrath & true forgiveness of sin. The OT blood of animals simply 'covered over' the sins of the people that kept God's wrath & judgment from being unleashed under the Law which had no mercy. In Christ, God's mercy can triumph over judgment & His shed blood does bring propitiation & true forgiveness of sins.
 
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Mathetes66

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"How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such."

ewq answered this very well. Only Israel was required to do this & only the Levites were chosen to do this priestly service. Under the Law it was done or you died. It was that straightforward. There was no mercy under the Law. All did it or they died. That is the just requirements of the Law & the holiness of God.

One who does not understand this as treating God as holy & obeying Him or else, ignores the whole OT Law. It ignores the sacrifice God made for Adam & Eve.

God was willing to do it Himself at the very beginning!

Abel offered a better sacrifice. Noah offered sacrifices of clean animals after the flood & what was God's response?

Genesis 8:20,21 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord & took some of every clean animal & some of every clean bird & offered burnt offerings on the altar. AND WHEN THE LORD SMELLED THE PLEASING AROMA, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.

Numbers 15:3 And you present an offering made by fire to the LORD from the herd or flock TO PRODUCE A PLEASING AROMA TO THE LORD--either a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a vow or as a freewill or festival offering.

Ex 29:18 Then burn the entire ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire. (also Lev 1:9)

That is how God viewed it when done right with the right attitude & heart. But this was a picture of what Christ would do in fulfillment of the OT Law. The reality belonged to Christ where the former was a 'shadow.'

So we see the reality applied in the NT using the same language, as a fulfillment of the necessity of the prior requirements under the first covenant.

I Pet 2:5 You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Rom 15:16 To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering & a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savor.

Phil 4:18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable & pleasing to God.

Heb 13:6 And do not neglect to do good & to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

2 Cor 2:14,15 But thanks be to God, who always leads us triumphantly as captives in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him. For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Romans 12:1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service.
 
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section9+1

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How many of you who profess to believe in the necessity of bloodletting to get right with God, if Jesus had not come yet, would be willing to put a lamb on an altar and slit its throat so that your sins could be forgiven? This is your view of what God is and what he requires, so, to be consistent, you must answer that you would be willing to do such.
If I were an old testament Jew and believed it necessary I would do so without hesitation. Why would that be an issue?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.

I don't know. It all depends on 'how' you think the Passover feast, along with all of the other sacrifices in the Torah, plays into the meaning of Christ's death on the Cross ...

Personally, I'm not a big stickler on all of this, but somewhere in the mix is the fact that Christ HAD to die (blood or no blood) in order to assuage and detour the penalty that was to be applied to us, as per the theology of the Garden of Eden/the Fall account and the rest of the sacrificial economy expressed in the Torah.

So, think what you will ... pick a theory! :dontcare:
 
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misput

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? The Old Testament prophets, in contradiction to the Jewish sacrificial system, stated that God does not require blood sacrifice. Jeremiah has God stating it directly, and Jesus affirms and repeats this. Thus, I contend that the OT blood sacrifices were not from God but were influenced by the pagan religions.

Accordingly, my view of the Atonement encompasses the early church doctrines: Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation. I reject all Western, Latin views of the atonement.
Congratulations, after much study you have finally figured out blood represented life, so you want to discount this aspect of atonement was instituted by God but you are sadly mistaken. I challenge you to answer my previously asked question, why did God not accept the leaf aprons and replace them with animal skins? If you do not answer I am going to assume you are not convinced of your own assumption.
 
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1213

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Is it possible to be a Christian and not believe in blood sacrifice -- that is, to not believe that God requires or ever required blood sacrifice to forgive sins? ...

It is, because Christian means a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is defined by this:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

It is enough to remain in teachings of Jesus. And I recommend it, it is much better to follow Jesus than some other. :)
 
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misput

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It is, because Christian means a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is defined by this:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

It is enough to remain in teachings of Jesus. And I recommend it, it is much better to follow Jesus than some other. :)
The problem with that is when you refuse to believe major aspects of His word, are you really in His word? Do you really know the truth? He definitely taught that He must die a bloody death that we might live. Did He humanly want to? Absolutely not! Did He have to in order to fulfill God's plan of redemption? Absolutely! Do we have to die a bloody death to follow Him? Not unless we are called by him to do so but we must be willing to. If we are not it shows we are only willing to follow Him in a limited way.
 
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bling

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Thank you for sharing all of that; it was good. Yes, please share more and as much as you will.
I did try to break apart the explanation for atonement, by going over just the blood which should leave you with lots of questions, since everything is tied together: we have the ransom, the way atonement was done in the OT which explains somethings about Christ’s atonement sacrifice, what part atonement plays in forgiveness, atonement as a process and not just one single act, “My God, My God why have you forsaken me…”, Is. 53, Psalms 22, Acts 2, and so on.

Any place I begin will leave lots of unanswered questions so I need to know your specific questions to address them first for I can explain with many words:

God did not forsake Christ while on the cross.

God does not need anything especially the blood to forgive (forgiveness being a transaction).

We are the ones being “blood thirsty”, needing Christ’s blood.

There is a ransom but God is not the kidnapper nor is satan, since satan cannot hold anything from God.

We are personally responsible for Christ going to the cross.



To begin with:

It is very good, you do not even want to try to grasp the horror of Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered to the point you reject it all together.

Your question might be better addressed: “What could possible cause/require such a horrendous tragedy and then to be given the answer “God”, makes it all the more unbelievable/unthinkable”. How could anyone want to worship such a blood thirty tyrant?

You have to keep the objective in mind all the time, because the objective drives everything and it is not God’s objective, but man’s objective, since God’s objective is doing or allowing everything that does happen to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

Christ going to the cross is not to help God out with some problem God is having (like unable to forgive without seeing blood first or a problem with satan), but Christ did it to help willing humans in fulfilling their objective.

Peter gives the first and very best, for his audience, “Christ Crucified” sermon in Acts 2 so please read Acts 2:14-41 which is very short and to the point.

Listen, not only, to what Peter said, but what Peter did not say. Peter did not say: Christ went in your place to the cross, Christ defeated satan, sin or death on the cross, do you (the audience) feel the Love or Christ did this to satisfy God’s wrath. What Peter emphasized was the fact: “You cruelly tortured and murdered the Messiah Jesus”, it was not to be a feel-good sermon, but a really hard sermon for the crowd to listen to. The sermon was to get them so far down they had no where to turn and desperately said: “What can we do?!” The crowd should have been expecting lighting to come down from heaven to destroy them, but instead heard the good news gift Acts 2:38.

When those first century people realized what they did they had a death blow to their heart (the worst feeling they could have and live), so should we not experience the same feeling when we come to realize what we cause Christ to go through.

God making and allowing this unbelievable huge tragedy the product of my sin, makes my sin debt unbelievably huge, but that helps in my fulfilling my objective, the greater the tragedy I initially caused the better for me. (I am not saying sin all the more, but my sins put Christ on the cross).

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

OK we can work from there, if you want to go deeper.
 
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CelticRebel

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Priests did that and that was in Judaism only. Let's be honest here: Your beliefs against blood sacrifices are not biblical and are contrary to Judaism's and Christianity's beliefs and history.

Yes, let's be honest. The OT prophets believed as I do. They quote God directly. And Jesus affirms these words in the NT. The OT sacrificial system is contrary to what God says through the OT prophets. This was a pagan-derived system; it did not come from God. God Himself said it did not.

Now, answer truthfully: If Jesus had not come yet, would you be bringing a lamb to have its throat slit to appease your "god"?
 
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CelticRebel

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ewq answered this very well. Only Israel was required to do this & only the Levites were chosen to do this priestly service. Under the Law it was done or you died. It was that straightforward. There was no mercy under the Law. All did it or they died. That is the just requirements of the Law & the holiness of God.

One who does not understand this as treating God as holy & obeying Him or else, ignores the whole OT Law. It ignores the sacrifice God made for Adam & Eve.

God was willing to do it Himself at the very beginning!

Abel offered a better sacrifice. Noah offered sacrifices of clean animals after the flood & what was God's response?

Genesis 8:20,21 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord & took some of every clean animal & some of every clean bird & offered burnt offerings on the altar. AND WHEN THE LORD SMELLED THE PLEASING AROMA, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.

Numbers 15:3 And you present an offering made by fire to the LORD from the herd or flock TO PRODUCE A PLEASING AROMA TO THE LORD--either a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a vow or as a freewill or festival offering.

Ex 29:18 Then burn the entire ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire. (also Lev 1:9)

That is how God viewed it when done right with the right attitude & heart. But this was a picture of what Christ would do in fulfillment of the OT Law. The reality belonged to Christ where the former was a 'shadow.'

So we see the reality applied in the NT using the same language, as a fulfillment of the necessity of the prior requirements under the first covenant.

I Pet 2:5 You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Rom 15:16 To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering & a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savor.

Phil 4:18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable & pleasing to God.

Heb 13:6 And do not neglect to do good & to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

2 Cor 2:14,15 But thanks be to God, who always leads us triumphantly as captives in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him. For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Romans 12:1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service.

Your view of God and the atonement requires that you would be willing, if Jesus had not come yet, to bring a lamb and have its throat slit to appease your angry and vengeful "god', so that he might forgive your sins through this slaughter. Would you be willing to do so? If you say no, you are denying what you profess to believe.
 
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ewq1938

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Yes, let's be honest. The OT prophets believed as I do.

They clearly did not. Your belief here has been thoroughly refuted by scripture and historic fact.
 
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CelticRebel

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Congratulations, after much study you have finally figured out blood represented life, so you want to discount this aspect of atonement was instituted by God but you are sadly mistaken. I challenge you to answer my previously asked question, why did God not accept the leaf aprons and replace them with animal skins? If you do not answer I am going to assume you are not convinced of your own assumption.

The OT prophets and Jesus affirm what I believe. I'll go with them.

You answer my question, and I'll answer yours. Before the flood, people were vegetarians -- so, no killing of animals. Did God violate his own code?
 
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CelticRebel

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It is, because Christian means a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is defined by this:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

It is enough to remain in teachings of Jesus. And I recommend it, it is much better to follow Jesus than some other. :)

Thank you.
 
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CelticRebel

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I did try to break apart the explanation for atonement, by going over just the blood which should leave you with lots of questions, since everything is tied together: we have the ransom, the way atonement was done in the OT which explains somethings about Christ’s atonement sacrifice, what part atonement plays in forgiveness, atonement as a process and not just one single act, “My God, My God why have you forsaken me…”, Is. 53, Psalms 22, Acts 2, and so on.

Any place I begin will leave lots of unanswered questions so I need to know your specific questions to address them first for I can explain with many words:

God did not forsake Christ while on the cross.

God does not need anything especially the blood to forgive (forgiveness being a transaction).

We are the ones being “blood thirsty”, needing Christ’s blood.

There is a ransom but God is not the kidnapper nor is satan, since satan cannot hold anything from God.

We are personally responsible for Christ going to the cross.



To begin with:

It is very good, you do not even want to try to grasp the horror of Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered to the point you reject it all together.

Your question might be better addressed: “What could possible cause/require such a horrendous tragedy and then to be given the answer “God”, makes it all the more unbelievable/unthinkable”. How could anyone want to worship such a blood thirty tyrant?

You have to keep the objective in mind all the time, because the objective drives everything and it is not God’s objective, but man’s objective, since God’s objective is doing or allowing everything that does happen to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

Christ going to the cross is not to help God out with some problem God is having (like unable to forgive without seeing blood first or a problem with satan), but Christ did it to help willing humans in fulfilling their objective.

Peter gives the first and very best, for his audience, “Christ Crucified” sermon in Acts 2 so please read Acts 2:14-41 which is very short and to the point.

Listen, not only, to what Peter said, but what Peter did not say. Peter did not say: Christ went in your place to the cross, Christ defeated satan, sin or death on the cross, do you (the audience) feel the Love or Christ did this to satisfy God’s wrath. What Peter emphasized was the fact: “You cruelly tortured and murdered the Messiah Jesus”, it was not to be a feel-good sermon, but a really hard sermon for the crowd to listen to. The sermon was to get them so far down they had no where to turn and desperately said: “What can we do?!” The crowd should have been expecting lighting to come down from heaven to destroy them, but instead heard the good news gift Acts 2:38.

When those first century people realized what they did they had a death blow to their heart (the worst feeling they could have and live), so should we not experience the same feeling when we come to realize what we cause Christ to go through.

God making and allowing this unbelievable huge tragedy the product of my sin, makes my sin debt unbelievably huge, but that helps in my fulfilling my objective, the greater the tragedy I initially caused the better for me. (I am not saying sin all the more, but my sins put Christ on the cross).

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

OK we can work from there, if you want to go deeper.

I think all of what you wrote is very good. I enjoyed reading it. You make some valid points.
 
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CelticRebel

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I think it is interesting that people say I don't believe what the Bible teaches on this when it is I who have quoted the VERY WORDS of God as spoken directly to and through the OT prophets, which Jesus Himself affirms in the NT, as I have pointed out. Prophetic religion is opposed to priestly religion. God did not institute the OT priestly sacrificial system, as the prophets convey God's direct words on this.

Again, for all those who believe that God required an animal's throat to be slit in order to forgive sins, would you have brought an animal to have its throat cut if you had lived in ancient Israel? Also, for all those who believe in Penal Substitution, that's what you are doing to Jesus -- spilling His blood to appease an angry, vengeful god.

I once heard Charles Stanley say that God tortured and killed Jesus in our place. That is a horrible doctrine.
 
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CelticRebel

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They clearly did not. Your belief here has been thoroughly refuted by scripture and historic fact.

Not once has it been. I have quoted the DIRECT WORDS of GOD HIMSELF, spoken through the prophets, and Jesus. Looks like I am the only true Biblical literalist here, as you and others deny the direct words of God recorded in the Bible.
 
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CelticRebel

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Most mainline churches have a mix of theology. You're not required to reject the Virgin Birth, and certainly not the resurrection.

I wish there was a mainline believers' baptism denomination church near me. I would be in it -- Baptist, Disciples, or even CBF.

Do you think my views of blood sacrifice would be unacceptable in a mainline denomination?
 
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"It all depends on 'how' you think the Passover feast, along with all of the other sacrifices in the Torah, plays into the meaning of Christ's death on the Cross."

I Cor 5:7,8 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, OUR PASSOVER LAMB, HAS BEEN SACRIFICED FOR US. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old bread, leavened with malice & wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity & of truth.

"God does not need anything ESPECIALLY THE BLOOD to forgive (forgiveness being a transaction)"

A transaction is an agreement between a buyer & a seller to exchange goods, services or financial instruments; an instance of buying or selling something; a business deal.

Job 28:18 ISV "He will restore what he has attained from his work & won't consume it; he won't enjoy the profits from his business transactions.

Ruth 4:7 HCSB NET AM At an earlier period in Israel, a man removed his sandal and gave [it] to the other party in order to make any matter [legally] binding concerning the right of redemption or the exchange of property. This was [the method of] legally binding a transaction in Israel.

Jer 32:25 NET The city is sure to fall into the hands of the Babylonians. Yet, in spite of this, you, Lord God, have said to me, "Buy that field with silver & have the transaction legally witnessed."

The word transaction is never used in the Bible to describe forgiveness of sins. But the sacrificial death of Christ by means of his shed blood IS REQUIRED for forgiveness. There is no new covenant apart from the blood of Christ. If you are placing your faith in some covenant without the blood of Christ then you might examine yourself to see if you are in the Scriptural faith of the new covenant.

I Cor 5:7 For Christ, our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed.

Rev 5:9,12 ...the Lamb who was slain. In the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as if it had been slain...

Isaiah 53:8 He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter...

Rev 19:13-15 He has eyes like blazing fire & many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe DIPPED IN BLOOD & His name is THE WORD OF GOD.

Rom 3:25 God PRESENTED Him as an ATONING sacrifice THROUGH (by means of) FAITH IN HIS BLOOD...

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh IS IN THE BLOOD. And I have given it to you upon the altar to MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR YOUR SOULS; for IT IS THE BLOOD THAT MAKES ATONEMENT FOR THE SOUL.

Just at the first Passover instituted was not done without the blood of the Passover Lamb & without the blood (whether Jew or Egyptian), the death angel came & took the life of the firstborn but those who put THEIR FAITH IN THE BLOOD were spared & delivered. Those who do not put their faith IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST will not experience propitiation & forgiveness.

Matt 26:27,28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks & gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is MY BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT, WHICH IS SHED for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Acts 20:28 Be shepherds of the CHURCH OF GOD, which He PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll & to open its seals, BECAUSE YOU WERE SLAIN & BY YOUR BLOOD YOU PURCHASED FOR GOD PERSONS FROM every tribe & language & people & nation.

Rev 12:11 Now have come the salvation & the power & the kingdom of our God & the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day & night before our God. "And they OVERCAME HIM BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB & because of the word of their testimony & they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Col 1:14 In Whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, EVEN THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS...

I Cor 15:3,4 For I delivered to you of FIRST IMPORTANCE, WHAT I ALSO RECEIVED, how that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES...

Heb 9:22 According to the Law, in fact, NEARLY EVERYTHING--MUST BE PURIFIED WITH BLOOD & WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS.

Heb 10:29 How much more SEVERELY do you think one DESERVES TO BE PUNISHED who has TRAMPLED ON THE SON OF GOD, PROFANED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT THAT SANCTIFIED HIM & INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE.

That is a grave & sober WARNING.

How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Scripture after Scripture after Scripture confirms the Biblical & ancient historical Christian doctrine that forgiveness of sins & redemption comes through the shedding of blood, the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST.

I Pet 1:18,19 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were REDEEMED from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, BUT BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH OR SPOT.

Job 22:25 Then the Almighty will be your gold & your PRECIOUS silver.

If one is not placing their faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ & saying it isn't necessary for redemption, even the forgiveness of our sins, then one is depending upon something else besides what Scripture has said: a different jesus, a different gospel by a different spirit.

I Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test (prove to be reprobates)?

Lest one think this wasn't spoken of & taught by the early church fathers in ancient Christianity, here are their teachings.

Clement of Rome, 95-97 AD: "Let us give up vain& fruitless cares & approach the glorious & venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing & acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. LET US LOOK STEADFASTLY TO THE BLOOD OF CHRIST & SEE HOW PRECIOUS THAT BLOOD IS TO GOD, WHICH HAVING BEEN SHED FOR OUR SALVATION, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world." (First Clement 7)

Ignatius of Antioch, 110AD: I have observed that you are perfected in an IMMOVABLE FAITH, AS IF YOU WERE NAILED TO THE CROSS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, BOTH IN THE FLESH & IN THE SPIRIT & ARE ESTABLISHED IN LOVE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Letter to the Smyrneans 1)

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven and the glorious angels & rulers, both visible &invisible, IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Letter to the Smyrneans 2)

"For this purpose the Lord endured to deliver His flesh to death, so that we might be sanctified through the remission of sins, WHICH IS BROUGHT ABOUT BY HIS BLOOD OF SPRINKLING." Letter of Barnabas, 5; 120-130AD)

Irenaeus, 180-189AD: "Truly the death of the Lord became healing & remission of sins to the former [i.e., those under the old covenant], but Christ shall not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over him. (Against Heresies IV:27:2)

As far as the APOSTASY is concerned, He indeed REDEEMS us from it righteously, BY HIS OWN BLOOD; but in regard to us who have been redeemed, graciously. For we have given nothing to Him in advance, nor does He desire anything from us, as though He stood in need of it, but we do stand in need of fellowship with Him. It was for this reason that HE POURED HIMSELF OUT, so that He might gather us into the bosom of the Father. (Against Heresies V:2:1)

2 Pet 2:1,2 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies & even DENY THE MASTER WHO BOUGHT THEM. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will FOLLOW in their depravity & because of them the way of truth will be MALIGNED (blasphemed).

Hyppolytus, 235AD: "For having blessed the cup in the Name of God you received it as the antitype [figure] OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Therefore, do not spill it, that no alien spirit lick it up because YOU DESPISED IT [& became] GUILTY OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AS ONE WHO DESPISES THE PRICE WITH WHICH HE HAS BEEN BOUGHT. (Apostolic Tradition III:32:4)

I John 5:5-8 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He that came by water & BLOOD, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water & blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word & the Holy Ghost & these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit & the water & THE BLOOD & these three agree in one.
 
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