Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

iamlamad

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So you're saying the word is in error.
Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Try going by what the word says and quit making all this garbage up.
DID God show John events of the future which would shortly come to pass - or did He not? Why is this such a struggle for you? Chapter 8 through 16 are the 70th week clearly laid out, and ALL future. So DID God show John things in the future? You KNOW He did. All you want to do is argue.
 
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iamlamad

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So John is weeping because no one is found worthy to open the book.......which means you are in error.....AGAIN.
No, it means exactly what John wrote, "no man was found." Go argue with John and the Holy Spirit! I am only copying them.

Instead of accepting the truth, you stick to your pea shooter, despite what the word says.
Sorry, but it is not my fault you cannot understand "no man was found."

You have incorrectly concluded that Jesus went and opened the book as soon as He ascended.

No, I CORRECTLY concluded this because it is exactly what John shows us. Can you find 2000 years anywhere in those verses? When you find them (the 2000 years) be sure and show us all WHERE they are.

This is something that you have completely made up. There is absolutely no scripture that you can produce that supports this false conclusion.

Again it is not my fault you have trouble either reading or believing John. Go back and try it again: John wrote, "no man was found," and then later someone told him to quit weeping for someone was JUST found. Why is this so difficult for you? Preconceived glasses again?

I have provided scriptural support that proves that you are in error. Instead of accepting the truth and adjusting your line of thought, you babel on and on and on and on.

If indeed you provide scriptural support, it would support my side of this, for it is truth, and comes straight from the Word. I suspect your support is a red herring. You need to find support for your side of this from Rev. 4 & 5.

You constantly use the word TRUTH but never have any scriptural support to back up the things that you have completely made up. There is no truth in that.

IAMLAMAD comments in black above.
THIS IS TRUTH: "no man was found." Yet, you seem to find this impossible to believe.
THIS IS MORE TRUTH: Jesus took the book and began opening the seals - as soon as He ascended. Now, if you disagree, then show us the 2000 years somewhere in those verses.

While you are at it, explain why John did NOT see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4, and why "no man was found."
 
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Jehu22

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Has anyone thought about the rather recent comments about AI and robotics developments in terms of its potential to fulfill a prophecy? The Word of God in: Matthew 24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.
It seems obvious from the context of Matthew chapter 24 that this is referring to the Second Coming of Christ thus the warning of false messiahs. Also, the idea ties in the image of the beast as the robots are to be the image of someone and the AI is to capture their intellect and thus "preserve" them. The robots with AI get out of hand like killer bees and/or terminator. Geniuses are saying it is going to be hellish for humans.
Hawking: AI could end human race
“Should We Be Worried?”: Tech Geniuses Fret That A.I. Is Gonna Kill Us All—Soonish
Is this just a promise that the seven years will end right on time as planned because God will be preserving the elect in a very difficult time where the unrepentant are falling like flies. We also know that at Christ's return many will be at war with Israel and be destroyed by the word from Christ. Further echoing the way is narrow and few find it especially in the end times that are populated with children of the night; unaware of events. Thoughts?
 
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IAMLAMAD comments in black above.
THIS IS TRUTH: "no man was found." Yet, you seem to find this impossible to believe.
THIS IS MORE TRUTH: Jesus took the book and began opening the seals - as soon as He ascended. Now, if you disagree, then show us the 2000 years somewhere in those verses.

While you are at it, explain why John did NOT see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4, and why "no man was found."

Here's the 2000 years you seem to have trouble finding in scripture.


Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


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Has anyone thought about the rather recent comments about AI and robotics developments in terms of its potential to fulfill a prophecy? The Word of God in: Matthew 24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.
It seems obvious from the context of Matthew chapter 24 that this is referring to the Second Coming of Christ thus the warning of false messiahs. Also, the idea ties in the image of the beast as the robots are to be the image of someone and the AI is to capture their intellect and thus "preserve" them. The robots with AI get out of hand like killer bees and/or terminator. Geniuses are saying it is going to be hellish for humans.
Hawking: AI could end human race
“Should We Be Worried?”: Tech Geniuses Fret That A.I. Is Gonna Kill Us All—Soonish
Is this just a promise that the seven years will end right on time as planned because God will be preserving the elect in a very difficult time where the unrepentant are falling like flies. We also know that at Christ's return many will be at war with Israel and be destroyed by the word from Christ. Further echoing the way is narrow and few find it especially in the end times that are populated with children of the night; unaware of events. Thoughts?
It is not the unrepentant that are dropping like flies during the tribulation, it will be those that do not take the mark. After the tribulation is over, the wrath of God begins. Then it will be the unrepentant that got worries as believers will be in heaven at the marriage supper.
 
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Jehu22

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Has anyone thought about the rather recent comments about AI and robotics developments in terms of its potential to fulfill a prophecy? The Word of God in: Matthew 24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.
It seems obvious from the context of Matthew chapter 24 that this is referring to the Second Coming of Christ thus the warning of false messiahs. Also, the idea ties in the image of the beast as the robots are to be the image of someone and the AI is to capture their intellect and thus "preserve" them. The robots with AI get out of hand like killer bees and/or terminator. Geniuses are saying it is going to be hellish for humans.
Hawking: AI could end human race
“Should We Be Worried?”: Tech Geniuses Fret That A.I. Is Gonna Kill Us All—Soonish
Is this just a promise that the seven years will end right on time as planned because God will be preserving the elect in a very difficult time where the unrepentant are falling like flies. We also know that at Christ's return many will be at war with Israel and be destroyed by the word from Christ. Further echoing the way is narrow and few find it especially in the end times that are populated with children of the night; unaware of events. Thoughts?
I am offering a possible answer to the question of rightly interpreting these verses from Matthew 24:22-25.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.

After consideration, I reject the internet's supposition of the meaning for this: The power of deception becomes so great that no one will be saved and here the words are "no flesh be saved" not from the first death but from the second death. So, I believe this to be a literal meaning of a spiritual reference not in terms of those being referenced but in terms of saved or salvation. That is the same concern as always, not about the short lives we live in the flesh on the earth but for the pending disaster of eternal separation from God! This is another message of warning about our soul's condition. Always looking with the physical eyes for a physical glimpse of Christ, not understanding what is offered to us is a healing that we cannot will or work out for ourselves but is offered by the grace of a mighty God. Let His children come humbly and trustingly before Him. Or worse yet, selfishly striving to preserve our life by our own strength, not seeing it as under God's control. Those thoughts are not the correct understanding of what God is saying to us. As always, humble yourself and pray for understanding from God!
So taking this only "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." and saying that it is about machines taking over the organic world is wrong because in the greater context the topic is "the deception occurring during those days". Thus there is an imminent return of Christ because this will be fulfilled without waiting for AI and Robotics to be that advanced. Presently, fake news and it's effects are showing us how the severe deception is at hand!!!
 
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I am offering a possible answer to the question of rightly interpreting these verses from Matthew 24:22-25.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.

After consideration, I reject the internet's supposition of the meaning for this: The power of deception becomes so great that no one will be saved and here the words are "no flesh be saved" not from the first death but from the second death. So, I believe this to be a literal meaning of a spiritual reference not in terms of those being referenced but in terms of saved or salvation. That is the same concern as always, not about the short lives we live in the flesh on the earth but for the pending disaster of eternal separation from God! This is another message of warning about our soul's condition. Always looking with the physical eyes for a physical glimpse of Christ, not understanding what is offered to us is a healing that we cannot will or work out for ourselves but is offered by the grace of a mighty God. Let His children come humbly and trustingly before Him. Or worse yet, selfishly striving to preserve our life by our own strength, not seeing it as under God's control. Those thoughts are not the correct understanding of what God is saying to us. As always, humble yourself and pray for understanding from God!

The verses mean that unless the days are cut short when Christ returns all the believers would be killed. But since the days are cut short, there will be alive flesh that are caught up and receive salvation.
 
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Jehu22

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It is not the unrepentant that are dropping like flies during the tribulation, it will be those that do not take the mark. After the tribulation is over, the wrath of God begins. Then it will be the unrepentant that got worries as believers will be in heaven at the marriage supper.

Below is self-explanatory, see the highlighted words. This is one example of what I am considering when I made that remark. I agree that those that do not repent until many signs are given is a "wicked and adulterous generation" that has it BAD in those days. However, it is BOTH.

Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates
13Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16Now the number of the army (Ezek. 38:4) of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; Is. 9:15for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
 
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Copperhead

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The verses mean that unless the days are cut short when Christ returns all the believers would be killed. But since the days are cut short, there will be alive flesh that are caught up and receive salvation.

Not sure I can go with that. The passage in Matthew 24 and 25 simply say the "elect". Isaiah quotes Yahweh is saying that

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

I am not convinced that Matthew 24 or 25 has anything to do with the redeemed of Yeshua, but primarily centers on Israel and the nations.

And then one has to take into account Hosea where he quotes Yeshua that He would return to His place till Jacob (Israel) acknowledges their offense of rejecting Him. It will take the acknowledgement for Him to return. Yeshua affirmed this again in Matthew 23, making Jacob (Israel) the focus of the Olivet Discourse. Not the believers.
 
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Copperhead

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The major problem with the partial rapture idea is equating the maidens of Matthew 24 with the church. The church is not a group of maidens but one single maiden of Yeshua. These maidens are the brides maids.

To get on top of what Yeshua was speaking about, one really needs to study the Hebrew marriage ritual of the first century. There are ample sources one can consult to get that information.

1). The bride and the groom are betrothed. This is sealed by sharing a cup of wine and the bride price is paid. Yeshua shared that cup at the last supper and paid the bride price on the Cross.

2) After the betrothal, the groom returns to his father's house to prepare the wedding chamber (chupah) for the bride. He will not be allowed to return to get his bride until the Father approves of the wedding chamber. If anyone were to ask the groom when the marriage will be, he is to respond "only my father knows". Sound like Yeshua?

3) Once the groom is given approval to go get his bride, he comes to her home but does not enter. He calls to her from outside and she comes out to him and they return together to the chupah. At this point, the guests of the marriage are notified so that they can make arrangements to attend the wedding feast. The bride and groom consummate the marriage and remain in the chupah for 7 days. The scripture says the believers are gathered and meet the Lord in the air.... outside of our home.

4) When they emerge together, they return to the wedding feast together and then the wedding feast begins. The guests that have made themselves ready are invited in and those who have not are rejected. They had 7 days to make themselves ready though they were not sure when exact hour of their return would happen.

Yeshua used this wedding model throughout His teaching. The maidens of Matthew 24 are not the bride. So the parable has nothing to do with some idea of a partial rapture. it can be more closely linked to the separation of the faithful and rebellious people of Jacob (Israel) which is outlined in Ezekiel 20.

Also, the partial rapture idea seems to suggest a works righteousness gig and thereby turns the tribulation period into a purgatory type of thing. Both of which goes against scripture. The partial rapture idea just puts unnecessary burden on those who are the redeemed. Keeping them in constant fear if they are worthy or not. And bases any measure of that on what someone says about what is righteous living and what is not. No one ever fully knows if they meet the standard. But the Holy Spirit does not give us a spirit of fear.

And what of the individual that is having a bad day, they then are cut off on the highway and in their frustration of the day, yell, scream, and curse out the offender. And right then... boom... the rapture happens. I do not believe that believer is left behind. We all are not perfect. We all have our flaws. But it is the righteousness of Yeshua that makes us worthy of making the trip.

And example is Lot in the OT. Before Sodom and Gomorrah could be destroyed, Lot and his family had to be taken out. And Lot was hardly a upstanding righteous pillar of the community and certainly would not meet some righteous living standard that gets put upon believers today. Yet, the Lord delivered him because he was of the family of Abraham. Nothing of how he was or did was a deciding factor. The same applies today.
 
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iamlamad

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It is not the unrepentant that are dropping like flies during the tribulation, it will be those that do not take the mark. After the tribulation is over, the wrath of God begins. Then it will be the unrepentant that got worries as believers will be in heaven at the marriage supper.
Readers, this post is in error: it is while Satan's wrath is at its peak - the Beast and False prophet murdering spree at its peak, when God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath - to shorten those days of GT where the Beast is murdering the saints. We also read that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, showing us that all trumpet judgments come with His wrath.

The truth then is that the entire 70th week, from the first trumpet judgment to the final bowl judgment is all the wrath of God.

The believers will have been in heaven for the entire 70th week: notice the crowd too large to number IN HEAVEN before John has shown the first trumpet judgment of the 70th week.
 
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iamlamad

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I am offering a possible answer to the question of rightly interpreting these verses from Matthew 24:22-25.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25Behold, I have told you before.

After consideration, I reject the internet's supposition of the meaning for this: The power of deception becomes so great that no one will be saved and here the words are "no flesh be saved" not from the first death but from the second death. So, I believe this to be a literal meaning of a spiritual reference not in terms of those being referenced but in terms of saved or salvation. That is the same concern as always, not about the short lives we live in the flesh on the earth but for the pending disaster of eternal separation from God! This is another message of warning about our soul's condition. Always looking with the physical eyes for a physical glimpse of Christ, not understanding what is offered to us is a healing that we cannot will or work out for ourselves but is offered by the grace of a mighty God. Let His children come humbly and trustingly before Him. Or worse yet, selfishly striving to preserve our life by our own strength, not seeing it as under God's control. Those thoughts are not the correct understanding of what God is saying to us. As always, humble yourself and pray for understanding from God!
So taking this only "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." and saying that it is about machines taking over the organic world is wrong because in the greater context the topic is "the deception occurring during those days". Thus there is an imminent return of Christ because this will be fulfilled without waiting for AI and Robotics to be that advanced. Presently, fake news and it's effects are showing us how the severe deception is at hand!!!
Let's set the record straight. The 70th week is written in stone, so to speak, with the last half - 1260 days - also written in stone: it is God's word and cannot be broken.

During that last 1260 days, the Beast and False Prophet will create an image that must be worshiped and a mark that people must take - or face beheading. Yet, God will send angels to warn everyone in their own language that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. Therefore GREAT PRESSURE (great tribulation) will be upon all. there will be no water to drink: the only water must be purchased, but that will require the mark!

Therefore the regime of murder and beheading begins. People refuse to bow and refuse the mark, and lose their head - probably by the millions or multiplied millions. Jesus said that unless those days are shortened....WHAT days? The 1260 days? NO! The days DURING the last 1260 where great pressure is put on people to save their heads. Jesus said there would be DAYS of great tribulation.

When the beheading is at its peak, God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will STOP the beheading. The days of the 1260 will still be counting down, but no more beheading. So God shortens the number of days when the Beast and False prophet are beheading the saints. If He did not, ALL the believers or anyone else who refuses the mark will be killed. So Jesus is talking about PHYSICAL death here. Read through the vials of wrath and make believe you are a part of the Beast's army. After two or three of the vials and associated plagues, the members of the Beast's armies will be rendered helpless. They will be sitting in the dark gnawing their tongues in pain. There is no way they are going to search for another believer.
 
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iamlamad

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Here's the 2000 years you seem to have trouble finding in scripture.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Next Question.........
WRONG! No cigar: you get a ZERO on this quiz. Notice 4:1: JOHN is called up to heaven. Sorry my friend, but it is STILL 95 AD! John sees Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room where He was not a moment before - not the REAL throne room of 95 AD, but the throne room of the VISION. Jesus ascended and then sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? You know the answer: it was right after He sent Mary on her way; He then ascended into the throne room and John got to see that moment in the vision. So what is the TIME in the vision? Of course it is around 32 AD when Jesus ascended, got the book into His own hands, and began opening the seals. Sorry, no 2000 years anywhere there. It is only imagined.

Where then REALLY is the 2000 years? It is ongoing while the Gospel leaves Jerusalem and is advanced to the nations of the world. (Seal 1) It is ongoing while the devil starts wars, famines, pestilences to stop the advance of the gospel. It is ongoing while believers are being killed, adding to the number of martyrs in Seal 5. This is where the church is now, STILL waiting for the final martyr.

You failed to explain why Jesus was not seen in the throne room.
You failed to explain why "no man was found" in that search.
 
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Man, that really is a lot to pull out of such a small passage. But like anything else, your idea on this has to have substantial support in the rest of scripture.

Internally, your idea doesn't stand up. In the first chapter, Yeshua told John to write down the things that had been (1st chapter), the things that are (chapters 2&3), and the things that will happen after these (chapter 4 onward).

And there is nothing to support the idea that, while this was going on in 95AD, that John was really seeing within a 50 day window of 32AD. There just isn't any support internally or externally to make that leap. Especially since the previous verses were well after 32AD as well as after Acts 10 also, and then John starts off with writing "after these things" just after the last letter to the 7 churches.

I think that what throws people off is the chapter and verse division of scripture which are arbitrary and only came about around the 16th century. If one take away the chapter division of 3 and 4 and reads it as one continuing writing, it flows that "after these things" refers only to the previous "things" , specifically the churches. And the church only started at Shavuot after Yeshua had ascended to the Father and His throne.

Chapter 4 onward is yet future. And no, I don't need to explain why John didn't see Yeshua right off. When you bump into him, ask him. But to focus on that one point, build an entire position around it, and dismiss all the other evidences is not sound exegesis.
 
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Man, that really is a lot to pull out of such a small passage. But like anything else, your idea on this has to have substantial support in the rest of scripture.

Internally, your idea doesn't stand up. In the first chapter, Yeshua told John to write down the things that had been (1st chapter), the things that are (chapters 2&3), and the things that will happen after these (chapter 4 onward).

And there is nothing to support the idea that, while this was going on in 95AD, that John was really seeing within a 50 day window of 32AD. There just isn't any support internally or externally to make that leap. Especially since the previous verses were well after 32AD as well as after Acts 10 also, and then John starts off with writing "after these things" just after the last letter to the 7 churches.

I think that what throws people off is the chapter and verse division of scripture which are arbitrary and only came about around the 16th century. If one take away the chapter division of 3 and 4 and reads it as one continuing writing, it flows that "after these things" refers only to the previous "things" , specifically the churches. And the church only started at Shavuot after Yeshua had ascended to the Father and His throne.

Chapter 4 onward is yet future. And no, I don't need to explain why John didn't see Yeshua right off. When you bump into him, ask him. But to focus on that one point, build an entire position around it, and dismiss all the other evidences is not sound exegesis.
You are imagining that Jesus told John to write an "ONLY," but Jesus did not and John did not: it does not read John is to write ONLY things....whether past, present or future. This is a non-argument. God certainly left Himself where John could add Historic events. In fact, I God had told John to write the messages to the churches, then about what He saw in chapter 1, then told only TWO events of the future and filled the rest of the book up with recipes for manna, He would not have gone against what John wrote here.

Let me ask you: what would YOU have done? God wanted to introduce John to the Book with seven seals - but it is 95 AD and Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 AD. God CHOSE to back up and show John when the book was in the right hand of the Father - the BEGINNING of the story - so to speak. Of necessity then, God HAD to some some historic events. Now, if YOU had to tell the story that happened 60 years previous, how would YOU have told it?

There just isn't any support internally or externally to make that leap. Then you have to come up with a good theory as to WHY Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, why the Holy Spirit was there in 95 AD when John wrote that as soon as Jesus ascended He would send Him down, and finally why a search for one worthy to open the book ended in failure. No, the finally is that in chapter 5 Jesus suddenly appears and sends the Holy Spirit down.

That is going to be very difficult unless you think historically.

By the way, "after these things" is just a transitional phase to show the reader that God finished dictating letters and now is going to show John something different. Please notice carefully it was STILL 95 AD when God called John up to heaven. John used this phrase or a similar one 6 times in Revelation.
 
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Not sure I can go with that. The passage in Matthew 24 and 25 simply say the "elect". Isaiah quotes Yahweh is saying that

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

I am not convinced that Matthew 24 or 25 has anything to do with the redeemed of Yeshua, but primarily centers on Israel and the nations.

And then one has to take into account Hosea where he quotes Yeshua that He would return to His place till Jacob (Israel) acknowledges their offense of rejecting Him. It will take the acknowledgement for Him to return. Yeshua affirmed this again in Matthew 23, making Jacob (Israel) the focus of the Olivet Discourse. Not the believers.
Yes, it is Israel that these verses are referring to. We can see the church caught up in Rev 4. They receive their crowns........and are around the throne. The church is taken to heaven, before the tribulation. It is the elect......the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, that are going through the tribulation. Unless those days are cut short there would be not flesh alive to be caught up that receive salvation.
The twelve tribes go through the tribulation.......but are caught up before the wrath of God begins. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. Since the 144,000 are from the 12 twelve tribes...........we know the harvest is the 12 tribes. Only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God...............and they do so in a place of protection.
 
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WRONG! No cigar: you get a ZERO on this quiz. Notice 4:1: JOHN is called up to heaven. Sorry my friend, but it is STILL 95 AD! John sees Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room where He was not a moment before - not the REAL throne room of 95 AD, but the throne room of the VISION. Jesus ascended and then sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? You know the answer: it was right after He sent Mary on her way; He then ascended into the throne room and John got to see that moment in the vision. So what is the TIME in the vision? Of course it is around 32 AD when Jesus ascended, got the book into His own hands, and began opening the seals. Sorry, no 2000 years anywhere there. It is only imagined.

Where then REALLY is the 2000 years? It is ongoing while the Gospel leaves Jerusalem and is advanced to the nations of the world. (Seal 1) It is ongoing while the devil starts wars, famines, pestilences to stop the advance of the gospel. It is ongoing while believers are being killed, adding to the number of martyrs in Seal 5. This is where the church is now, STILL waiting for the final martyr.

You failed to explain why Jesus was not seen in the throne room.
You failed to explain why "no man was found" in that search.
Sure Jesus was seen in the throne room. He is seated at the right hand of God. You just take the scripture and make stuff up. The church has received their crowns in Rev 4. There's your cigar.
 
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Readers, this post is in error: it is while Satan's wrath is at its peak - the Beast and False prophet murdering spree at its peak, when God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath - to shorten those days of GT where the Beast is murdering the saints. We also read that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, showing us that all trumpet judgments come with His wrath.

The truth then is that the entire 70th week, from the first trumpet judgment to the final bowl judgment is all the wrath of God.

The believers will have been in heaven for the entire 70th week: notice the crowd too large to number IN HEAVEN before John has shown the first trumpet judgment of the 70th week.
The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Gods people..........both the Gentile Church and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth..........are gathered in Matt 24 and Rev 6. See the cosmic signs that are in both chapters. You keep making things up that do not agree with scripture.
 
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