BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

setst777

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What does the verse say? You are mostly telling me what it doesn't say here, but not acknowledging what it does say, which is that God is faithful who will sanctify completely the believer and preserve blameless their entire person - spirit, soul and body unto the return of Christ. But, if God has taken it upon Himself to fully sanctify every believer, they need not fear for their salvation.

So, now you're no longer talking about the passage I cited but another one entirely. I guess that makes sense since the verses I cited thoroughly defeat a saved-and-lost/works salvation belief.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (NKJV)
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.


Perhaps you don't realize that positionally in Christ, every believer has been - past tense - already fully sanctified, which is why God accepts them.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NKJV)
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:


Note that Paul writes "are sanctified" not "are being sanctified," or "will eventually be sanctified."

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NKJV)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


Same here. Paul says the Corinthian believers "were sanctified," not "would be sanctified." In God's eyes, His children are sanctified already by their being in Christ. And this is why a Christian does not need to rely on his success in living in a sanctified way in order to be accepted by God.

Hebrews 10:14 (NKJV)
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


The writer of Hebrews indicates here that there is a positional sanctification in Christ that is complete (perfected forever) and a sanctification of condition, of daily experience, that is in the process of being worked out in the Christian's life. It is because the former sanctification exists that the latter sanctification can develop over time and the believer still be accepted by God. God's standard is perfection, even in regards to our sanctification. He would not tolerate our sanctification being progressive if we weren't already fully sanctified in Christ. And because our sanctification is complete in Christ, we don't have to fear for our salvation if the sanctification of our condition isn't what it should be.

??? Where does Paul say this in the passage above from Ephesians 1? Paul wrote that God chose us, not we, Him from before the world existed to be holy and without blame before Him. This was accomplished by Christ, not by our good works. Paul also explained that our acceptance with God is based in our union with Christ. We are "accepted in the Beloved" and only because of the Beloved. God accepts us on no other basis - certainly not on the basis of our works. And, since our acceptance is Christ-contingent, not us-contingent, and God always accepts Christ, our acceptance with God is also constant and permanent.

Where is this stated in the verse? Where in the verse does it say, "if we remain so"? No where.

Again, you've had to resort to another passage entirely to scrape up ground for your view. That should tell you something about the bankruptcy of your view. It certainly does me.

Here's the passage in a more clear format:

Ephesians 5:5-8 (NKJV)
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light


It is important to note how Paul phrases things in this passage, most particularly in verse 7. He uses the pronoun "them" in the verse and in doing so distinguishes the Ephesian Christians to whom he was writing from the "sons of disobedience" he had been describing. He does not suggest that the Ephesians were acting like "sons of disobedience" and so had better fear for their salvation, but simply warns them to avoid contact with such people. The Ephesian believers are "children of light" and ought to have no fellowship with the darkness. There is no threat here of lost-salvation, nor a teaching that works are vital to maintaining one's salvation, only the advice to steer clear of the company of people not of the light. Certainly, no where in the verses does Paul write anything like, "for us to rest in the assurance of God's promises to continue His work in US to the day of Salvation, then we must remain faithful."

You tried using this passage before in this slippery way but it didn't work then and it won't work now. The verse doesn't actually read as you have it here.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."


There is no "must" in this verse. And this is why upwards of 90% of all English versions of the Bible do not translate the verse with a "must" in it. This changes the tenor of the verse significantly. Instead of demanding as necessary the believer's departure from iniquity, the verse only commands it. There is no implicit threat in the verse if there is no "must" in it. There is only an "ought" where you would insinuate an "or else."

Hi Aiki,

You wrote:
<<
What does the verse say?
>>

One of the things that most amazes me about you is that you have no fear of God when you tear His Word apart into verses and create whole doctrines out of isolated verses that are divorced from their context. Even in the very same inspired letter to a Church, you tear it into verses, keeping what you can use and denying the rest.

I put the verses back into their context the way God meant it, and you scold me for doing so just to uphold your man-made myths.

You attempt to refute the clear teaching of Scripture, in context, disagreeing with God himself, saying that sanctification is 100% God's work, and we just sit there. Well, that is not what the Gospel teaches. And your arguments do not change that fact.

Yes, sanctification is God's Work, but only in those who live by faith in Jesus, walking by His Spirit, just as Scripture teaches. That is how sanctification actually occurs according to the Gospel.

Sanctification comes by faith in Jesus.

Acts 26:16-18 (WEB) Lord Jesus being quoted...
16 "But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; 17 delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

Yes, sanctification is God's Work, but only in those who live by faith in Jesus, walking by His Spirit, just as Scripture teaches.

Romans 12:1 (NIV) A command of Paul to the Romans
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,
  • to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
  • holy and pleasing to God—
  • this is your true and proper worship.
1 Peter 1:14 (WEB) A command of Peter to the Churches
14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but ifby the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Aiki wrote:
<<
2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."


There is no "must" in this verse.
>>

setst:
Oh yes, I remember. You believe that departing from iniquity is optional. No go Aiki. Not in God's word.

The New Life in Christ, being made alive, means you are now living a holy life if you continue in the faith, walking in the Spirit. Nothing optional about it.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.

  • 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
  • whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
  • 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.
The only acceptable worship for those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,
  • to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
  • holy and pleasing to God—
  • this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

It is up to YOU to continue in the faith, putting off the old self, and then putting on the New Self created to be like Christ Jesus. We do this by walking in the Spirit Christ - sowing to please the Spirit. That is sanctification.

Ephesians 4:20-30 (NIV)
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
 
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setst777

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Now brother aiki, nice to see you brother.

I love all the scriptures you have provided brother but let's be honest with each other. Which one of the scriptures have you provided say that a BELIEVER or someone who was a TRUE BELIEVER (past tense) cannot fall away from the truth BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense"? Not a single one.

All the scriptures you provide are God's promises to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" so as long as we are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD we have the assurance of God's promises applying to us. As posted in the OP and elsewhere it is only those who ENDURE to the end that receive eternal life. These are all God's Warnings to BELIEVERS not UNBELIEVERS in the "present tense" If a BELIEVER could not become an "UNBELIEVER" then why so many WARNINGS from God's WORD which are to BELIEVERS not to depart from the FAITH?

WARNINGS ARE TO BELIEVERS NOT TO FALL AWAY

BELIEVERS are warned in *HEBREWS 3:7-19 not to have an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" doing so is to depart from the living God (v12). Then BELIEVERS are warned in ACTS 20:28-30 that after the departing of Paul that grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock and stating that of your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. The same warnings are repeated in *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 not to let any man DECEIVE us because before the second coming there will be a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS from the truth of God's WORD because they did not receive a love of the truth *2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10.

In 2 PETER 2:20-22 BELIEVERS are warned again about prophets and teachers who were once BELIEVERS who knew the way of righteousness and turned from the way of truth who now bring in false teachings to true believers. In GALATIANS 1:6 we are told about BELIEVERS turning from the grace of Christ to another gospel. These warnings are confirmed onces again to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 2:1-3 stating that we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip and that if we neglect our salvation; with every transgression and dosobedience receiving it's own reward.

BELIEVERS are further warned in *HEBREWS 10:26-31 that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The same warnings continue to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 10:35-39 not to cast away their confidence and if any man draws back to pedition they will not be saved. BELIEVERS are also warned of the many different ways we can FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in LUKE 8:11-15.

Then we have this warning to BELIEVERS in...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

NOTE: The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures. Continuing in v5 and have tasted the good word of God and the world to come. So the context here is very clear stating that these people were converted BELIEVERS that were enlightened with Gods' WORD and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and the power of the world to come. Now wait for it v6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. The IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS in the Word of GOD and who RECEIVED the HOLY Spirit!

Here once again in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we have a DIRECT WARNING to BELIEVERS who had received God's SPIRIT and fall back to a life of sin. Now brother be honest with yourself and consider these scriptures prayerfully as they go directly against what you are trying to teach here and you have not been able to respond to these scriptures since we have started our conversation.

Ok we can keep on going as there is many more scriptures in the NEW TESTAMENT and we have not even started on any of the scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT.

(please let me know if you need some scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT?)

I pray these scriptures may only be a blessing to you brother as this post is only sent in love and as a help.

Greetings Brother,

Excellent message. The letters Paul wrote to the churches, including all the warnings he gave, were for the believers in those churches.

<<
WARNINGS ARE TO BELIEVERS NOT TO FALL AWAY
>>

Amen. How anyone could even think to split Paul's letters into segments so that all those warnings Paul gave to the Church about falling away are only for non-believers shows how totally debased such persons are.

To say all those Passages of warnings to the believers to not deceived, and not to fall away, are actually written for unbelievers instead of the believers he was writing to is beyond any reason or logic. Anyone with even a 3rd grade reading ability can see all those Passages of warning are to the same people Paul wrote the letter to - the Christians.

Blessings and Love
setst
 
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nolidad

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If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us? If YES then how? If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE). Some thoughts from the scriptures below for consideration.

I did not read all the replies so don't know if this has already been given. But the answer is NO NO NO!

Wew can grieve the Spirit, we can even quench the Spirit, but we cannot evict the spirit!

One verse should suffice:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


 
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aiki

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Hi Aiki,

You can cry and stamp your feet if you like, but that does not change the Gospel.

Have I been crying and stamping my feet? No. But you're quite right that doing so doesn't change the Gospel.

And the Gospel declares that everything we have in Christ comes through faith in Jesus.

Yes, indeed. Including the faith to believe in Christ itself.

Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

We really do only work out what God has first worked in.

The Sovereign God chooses to grant His gift of saving grace to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and remain faithful to the end. That is how God chooses to carry out His will regarding our salvation. I will not argue with God.

Nope. The Sovereign God draws men to Christ (John 6:44), convicts them of sin (John 16:8), gives repentance to them (2 Timothy 2:25), and imparts to them the faith to believe (see above). All that a man does in coming to faith in Christ is receive God's saving work and respond in faith, given by God, to the atoning work of Christ on their behalf. Salvation is a work of God in a man, which God initiates (Ephesians 2:4-5) and which He sustains (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) until He has accomplished His work in them unto the return of Christ. THIS is the Gospel (or the parts of it pertinent to our discussion, anyway).

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end

See above.

This free gift of God's grace onto salvation is received and kept by a genuine faith. And this saving grace is only possible because Christ paid for it on the cross for us.

And the faith to believe comes from God, not from ourselves. Prior to being saved, we are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) and alienated from God and enemies in our minds toward Him by our wicked works. (Colossians 1:21) In such a condition, no man can move toward God unaided. God must do the work Scripture says He does (see above) in order for anyone even to consider the possibility of being saved. So, the salvation of all believers is God-dependent from beginning to end, not believer-dependent.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (NKJV)
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
 
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aiki

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Now brother aiki, nice to see you brother.

I love all the scriptures you have provided brother but let's be honest with each other. Which one of the scriptures have you provided say that a BELIEVER or someone who was a TRUE BELIEVER (past tense) cannot fall away from the truth BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense"? Not a single one.

If God says He will finish His work in those whom He has saved, it would be redundant to say also that no truly saved person can lose their salvation. It is implicit in God's promises to complete His saving work in His children unto the return of Christ (Philippians 1:6), to seal them unto the day of the redemption (Ephesians 4:30), to never leave nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5), to remain faithful in His sanctification of His children (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24), and that no one can snatch His children from His hand (John 10:28-29), that salvation cannot be lost. In the same way, the doctrine of the Trinity is established from Scripture. No where does the term "trinity" appear in Scripture and yet the concept of a trinitarian God is clearly spelled out in it. If the Scripture exists, then, that clearly form a doctrine, it cannot be denied merely on the basis of an absence of an explicit declaration of the doctrine.

All the scriptures you provide are God's promises to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" so as long as we are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD we have the assurance of God's promises applying to us.

I know this is what you believe, but, as I've explained quite thoroughly already, I don't believe Scripture actually supports your view.

As posted in the OP and elsewhere it is only those who ENDURE to the end that receive eternal life.

And as I've explained, it is those who are truly saved who endure to end. All those who depart the faith are as the apostle John described:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

These are all God's Warnings to BELIEVERS not UNBELIEVERS in the "present tense" If a BELIEVER could not become an "UNBELIEVER" then why so many WARNINGS from God's WORD which are to BELIEVERS not to depart from the FAITH?

As I've explained in detail already, not everything written to believers was about believers or for them. Every contributor to the NT knew and wrote of "false brethren," "tares," and/or false teachers within the Church. Many of their warnings are about (and to) these "tares" within the Church. I don't believe that the verses and passages that you've put forward in support of the idea that believers can lose their salvation are about believers but about false converts to the faith. I've explained why already.

WARNINGS ARE TO BELIEVERS NOT TO FALL AWAY

BELIEVERS are warned in *HEBREWS 3:7-19 not to have an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" doing so is to depart from the living God (v12). Then BELIEVERS are warned in ACTS 20:28-30 that after the departing of Paul that grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock and stating that of your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. The same warnings are repeated in *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 not to let any man DECEIVE us because before the second coming there will be a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS from the truth of God's WORD because they did not receive a love of the truth *2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10.

In 2 PETER 2:20-22 BELIEVERS are warned again about prophets and teachers who were once BELIEVERS who knew the way of righteousness and turned from the way of truth who now bring in false teachings to true believers. In GALATIANS 1:6 we are told about BELIEVERS turning from the grace of Christ to another gospel. These warnings are confirmed onces again to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 2:1-3 stating that we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip and that if we neglect our salvation; with every transgression and dosobedience receiving it's own reward.

BELIEVERS are further warned in *HEBREWS 10:26-31 that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The same warnings continue to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 10:35-39 not to cast away their confidence and if any man draws back to pedition they will not be saved. BELIEVERS are also warned of the many different ways we can FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in LUKE 8:11-15.

I've already addressed all these passages in this thread. I'm not going to do so again. Instead, I'll just post again links to blog articles I've written that answer your saved-and-lost/works-salvation false doctrines:

The Scriptural Basis For O.s.a.s. | Christian Forums

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

Osas: God Saves Us And He Keeps Us. | Christian Forums

NOTE: The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures.

LOL! Oh, but I have! Many times in this thread and others! And what you think is "clear" is no such thing.

Here once again in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we have a DIRECT WARNING to BELIEVERS who had received God's SPIRIT and fall back to a life of sin. Now brother be honest with yourself and consider these scriptures prayerfully as they go directly against what you are trying to teach here and you have not been able to respond to these scriptures since we have started our conversation.

Pffft! Somebody is not reading everything that I've posted to this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the dishonesty is all heavily on your part in the false doctrines you've been promoting in this thread.

Ok we can keep on going as there is many more scriptures in the NEW TESTAMENT and we have not even started on any of the scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT.

(please let me know if you need some scriptures from the OLD TESTAMENT?)

I pray these scriptures may only be a blessing to you brother as this post is only sent in love and as a help.

We can go on, yes. But I've said all that needs to be said, I think.

Scripture is always a blessing. And you may really believe you are being loving and helpful in posting your interpretations of it. But, I can think of few more pernicious and destructive doctrines than the works-salvation/saved-and-lost ones you've been pushing in this thread. I'd like to be magnanimous in my tone toward you but the terrible way you've contorted Scripture is so appalling it's very difficult to be so. I pray God convicts you of your wresting of His word, of the Self-centeredness at the heart of your false doctrines, and brings you finally in repentance into the liberty and joy of the true Gospel.
 
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aiki

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One of the things that most amazes me about you is that you have no fear of God when you tear His Word apart into verses and create whole doctrines out of isolated verses that are divorced from their context.

Well, this is certainly a convenient way for you to describe what I've been doing, but it definitely isn't an accurate way. Just another of the many Strawmen you like to use in your discussions with me.

I put the verses back into their context the way God meant it, and you scold me for doing so just to uphold your man-made myths.

No, I ask you to ground your assertions about a verse in the verse itself, which you consistently fail to do. Almost always context helps us to understand the proper meaning of a particular verse but never by ignoring or altering entirely what the verse actually says which is, most of the time, what you end up doing in "explaining" what Scripture is saying.

You attempt to refute the clear teaching of Scripture, in context, disagreeing with God himself, saying that sanctification is 100% God's work, and we just sit there. Well, that is not what the Gospel teaches. And your arguments do not change that fact.

Strawman. And my disagreement isn't with what God has said in His word, but with your interpretation of it.

Yes, sanctification is God's Work, but only in those who live by faith in Jesus, walking by His Spirit, just as Scripture teaches. That is how sanctification actually occurs according to the Gospel.

No, it isn't. See my earlier posts that explain this to you. There is both the already-accomplished positional sanctification of the believer and the progressive sanctification of his daily condition or experience. The former is a spiritual reality obtained through the believer being in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, and thus forensically "perfected forever" (Hebrews 10:14), the latter, an ongoing process, continuing until the believer reaches heaven.

Acts 26:16-18 (WEB) Lord Jesus being quoted...
16 "But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; 17 delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

Yes, sanctification is God's Work, but only in those who live by faith in Jesus, walking by His Spirit, just as Scripture teaches.

Again, as you so often do, you have made a comment about the passage you offer that says nothing like what the passage itself does. And this is why I so often ask you, "What does the verse say?" Where in the passage above does Jesus say, "Sanctification is God's work, but only in those who live by faith in me, walking by my Spirit"? No where. At all.


Romans 12:1 (NIV) A command of Paul to the Romans
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,
  • to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
  • holy and pleasing to God—
  • this is your true and proper worship.
1 Peter 1:14 (WEB) A command of Peter to the Churches
14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but ifby the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

It has not escaped my notice that you have ignored so far every one of the verses/passages I posted that state that a believer's sanctification is an already-accomplished spiritual reality. That's telling, I think.

So, where does the matter of sanctification come up in the passages you've quoted here? I don't see the word "sanctify," or "sanctified," or "sanctification" appear once in any of them.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."


There is no "must" in this verse.
>>

setst:
Oh yes, I remember. You believe that departing from iniquity is optional. No go Aiki. Not in God's word.

A pretty deceptive misquoting of my comments here. Here's what I actually wrote:

"You tried using this passage before in this slippery way but it didn't work then and it won't work now. The verse doesn't actually read as you have it here.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

There is no "must" in this verse. And this is why upwards of 90% of all English versions of the Bible do not translate the verse with a "must" in it. This changes the tenor of the verse significantly. Instead of demanding as necessary the believer's departure from iniquity, the verse only commands it. There is no implicit threat in the verse if there is no "must" in it. There is only an "ought" where you would insinuate an "or else."


Now, how in the world do you get the idea that I think "departing from iniquity is optional" from what I've written here? Not once in all that I've written in any of the thousands of posts I've made on CF have I ever written "departing from iniquity is optional." Not once. It is this willful contortion of what you're reading that is leading you into the false doctrines you've been promoting in this thread.

The rest of your post is just another rehash of matters we've already discussed.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I did not read all the replies so don't know if this has already been given. But the answer is NO NO NO!

Wew can grieve the Spirit, we can even quench the Spirit, but we cannot evict the spirit!

One verse should suffice:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hi brother nolidad, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thougts with us :).

Does your scripture support what your claiming? Let's have a deeper look at it.

EPHESIANS 4:30 And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, whereby ye are sealed to/untofor the day of redemption (emphasis mine).

We are warned again in...

THESSALONIANS 5:19 [19], QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD

Let's have a look at the Greek word meanings for both?

1. The Greek word used for GRIEVE is λυπέω; lupeō and means to; to distress ; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.

Why are we warned not to Grieve the Holy Spirit? 1 THESSALONIANS 5:19 states it more clearly when it says QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. You may want to go back brother and look at your interpretation of EPHESIANS 4:30. This scripture is NOT SAYING that once we receive God's Spirit it cannot leave us as you have interpreted these scriptures otherwise PAUL would not say QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

2. The Greek word used here for QUENCH NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is σβέννυμι; sbennumi from G4570 and is a verb meaning to put out or extinguish

NOTE: These scripture references here are WARNINGS to the BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's Word who have not grieved the Holy Spirit. The Greek words used here also for quench not the Spirit is σβέννυμι; sbennumi (G4570) which is a verb and means to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we should not grieve the Spirit. Note also the CONTEXT of EPHESIANS 4:30. We grieve or quench the Spirit by living like the pagans by not believing and following God's Word *EPHESIANS 4:17-19, by lying *EPHESIANS 4:25, by being angry *EPHESIANS 4:26-27, by stealing *EPHESIANS 4:28, by cursing *EPHESIANS 4:29, by being bitter *EPHESIANS 4:31, by being unforgiving *EPHESIANS 4:32, and by being sexually immoral *EPHESIANS 5:3-5. To grieve the Spirit is to act out in a sinful manner, whether it is in thought only or in both thought and deed and not believing and following God. These WARNINGS are for BELIEVERS of God's WORD not to put out; quench or grieve the Holy Spirit!

Those who do not believe and follow God's Word grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and are unbelievers who do not believe and follow God's Word..

HEBREWS 3:10 Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

HEBREWS 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

If we GRIEVE or QUENCH God's Spirit we can be come God's enemy...

ISAIAH 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

ACTS 7:51 You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

.............

REPENTANCE *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17; LUKE 13:3-5; ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:32; PROVERBS 28:9-13, CONFESSION *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13 OF SIN *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 and FAITH *JOHN 3:14-21 in God's promises *2 PETER 1:4 in the NEW COVENANT are all requirement for salvation.

Those who follow God do not make a practice sin and those who continue in SIN do not know God *1 JOHN 3:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4 and need to be BORN AGAIN. If the HOLY SPIRIT cannot come and go why are we warned not to QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT *EPHESIANS 4:30; PSALMS 51:10-13?

We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN *GENESIS 6:5-6; PSALMS 119:158 and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; HEBREWS 3:17-19.

It is ONLY those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END that will be saved *JOHN 8:31-36; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:18-23.

According to the scriptures if we are not CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END we can QUENCH (put out) and GRIEVE God's Spirit and we depart from the faith *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

All these WARNINGS from God's WORD are for BELIEVERS brother. I suggest you read the OP. These scriptures are sent in love and as a help.

Something to consider prayerfully...

GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and IT GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

So it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man..

The application of EPHESIANS 4:30 is always to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" it does not say believers cannot fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. It does not say we cannot quench God's Spirit so that it departs from us.

PSALMS 51:11 Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your Holy Spirit from me

1 SAMUEL 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing Spirit from the Lord troubled him

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The Greek Word for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

God's Spirit is only given to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE God's Spirit through sin and unbelief no longer have God's presence unless they repent and turn back to God through faith to become a BELIEVER and FOLLOWER again (present tense).

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word of God).
 
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Blade

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Jesus told them...you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children.. how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy Spirit to them that ask. Have you received the sweet sweet Holy Spirit since you believed. Not talking saved. Yet.. strange how one can tell the difference between the one that asked.. and received vs the one that never has.

The word is not hard to understand. We can really mess it up with man thinking. JESUS IS REAL. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

We dont read it as a child. As if the Holy Spirit wont tell you why how when about the word?
 
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nolidad

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EPHESIANS 4:30 And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, whereby ye are sealed to/untofor the day of redemption (emphasis mine).

Hi LGW:

So I take it you believe a believer can lose their salvation and become "un-born again".

That people that are once for all justifed, glorifed, already seated in heavenly places, that He who has begun a good work will perform it to that day, who have been given eternal life and no one can pluck them out of Jesus' or the Fathers hands can lose all that? So eternal life is a probationary eternal life?

YOu forget that all of Gods wrath for an individuals sins was poured out on Jesus! That Jesus became all of our sins and He was punished for all of our sins in our place!

Am I saying that is a license to sin? God forbid! It is a license to strive for holiness!

You also need to remember in Ephesians 2 that the saints are the elect from the foundation of the world!
Why would God save a soul if He knew He had to UNSAVE them?

Yes you showed lots of places in the OT where God was grieved and took action. And yes we as Gods children can gireve and quench the influence of the spirit in our lives- but those are not the removal of th espirit.

One is to sadden the Spirit and the other is to dowse or still the voice of the spirit. But neither of those verses or their meanings mean that the spirit unseals a believer!
 
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nolidad

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God's Spirit is only given to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE God's Spirit through sin and unbelief no longer have God's presence unless they repent and turn back to God through faith to become a BELIEVER and FOLLOWER again (present tense).

So the inspired writer of Hebrews erred when they wrote:
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

the word never means this:





nev·er
/ˈnevər/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
  1. 1.
    at no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
    "they had never been camping in their lives"
    synonyms: at no time, not at any time, not ever, not once, on no occasion;
    literaryne'er
    "his room is never tidy"
Every sin in a believers life has already been paid for! If the penalty of sin judicially has been paid for- how can God unsave a soul?

If a person who is a believer can lose their salvation (which by the way Gods Word says is kept in heaven for us) then how can they get it back again?

Hebrews 6:3-7 King James Version (KJV)
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You have relationship with god based on works and not by birth or in this case the new birth!

YOu imply that a person can be born again and again and again and again.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Now brother aiki, nice to see you brother. I love all the scriptures you have provided brother but let's be honest with each other. Which one of the scriptures have you provided say that a BELIEVER or someone who was a TRUE BELIEVER (past tense) cannot fall away from the truth BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense"? Not a single one.
Your response...
If God says He will finish His work in those whom He has saved, it would be redundant to say also that no truly saved person can lose their salvation. It is implicit in God's promises to complete His saving work in His children unto the return of Christ (Philippians 1:6), to seal them unto the day of the redemption (Ephesians 4:30), to never leave nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5), to remain faithful in His sanctification of His children (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24), and that no one can snatch His children from His hand (John 10:28-29), that salvation cannot be lost. In the same way, the doctrine of the Trinity is established from Scripture. No where does the term "trinity" appear in Scripture and yet the concept of a trinitarian God is clearly spelled out in it. If the Scripture exists, then, that clearly form a doctrine, it cannot be denied merely on the basis of an absence of an explicit declaration of the doctrine.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here brother. I think what your missing here in your interpretation of the scriptures provided above which I also believe everyone of them is that these are God's promises only to BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD in the "present tense". Now brother as shown in the very post you are responding to you have not provided a single scripture above or elsewhere that shows that a BELIEVER cannot GRIEVE or QUENCH (put out) God's Spirit and a BELIEVER cannot fall away from the truth of God's WORD back in to a life of sin and become an "UNBELIEVER" now have you.

All the scriptures posted to you in this thread and OP are WARNINGS to BELIEVERS not to depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. There is no scripture that says those who depart from God were not believers in the first place in fact the scriptures teach the very opposite as shown already in *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31; PSALMS 51:11; 1 SAMUEL 16:14; ISAIAH 59:2; PSALMS 66:18; PROVERBS 28:9 (too many more to list).

As posted earlier brother, God's promises are true but only for all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who were believers and no longer believe and follow God's WORD are "UNBELIEVERS" and do not apply until those who have turned away from God repent and seek him to BELIEVE and FOLLOW. BELIEVERS are WARNED all through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures not to FALL AWAY and depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. Those who reject God's WARNINGS to his faithful do so at their own peril.
LoveGodsWord said: All the scriptures you provide are God's promises to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" so as long as we are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD we have the assurance of God's promises applying to us.
Your response...
I know this is what you believe, but, as I've explained quite thoroughly already, I don't believe Scripture actually supports your view.
You are free to believe as you wish brother as we all stand before God come judgment day and must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. You have been shown a mountain of scripture already which are direct warnings to BELIEVERS not to depart and fall away from believing and following God's WORD. Just the same as there are examples of believers departing from God all through the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

If you do not believe that God's promises are only for BELIEVERS in the "present tense" then your arguing that those who are "UNBELIEVERS" who practice sin are in a saved state before God. This is simply not biblical. All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they reject the free gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.
LoveGodsWord said: As posted in the OP and elsewhere it is only those who ENDURE to the end that receive eternal life.
Your response...
And as I've explained, it is those who are truly saved who endure to end. All those who depart the faith are as the apostle John described: 1 John 2:19 (NKJV)19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Let's have a look at your claims...

1 JOHN 2:18-19 [18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. They went out from BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (UNBELIEVERS). If they contunued with us then then would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us. No longer believing God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us. The very scripture you supply to support your view disagrees with your interpretation of it showing that anyone can FALL AWAY from the truth and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as shown in the very scriptures you quote. This is also clearly demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 not to mention all those scripture warnings alerady provided in the OP and all through this thread.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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@aiki continued...
LoveGodsWord said: These are all God's Warnings to BELIEVERS not UNBELIEVERS in the "present tense" If a BELIEVER could not become an "UNBELIEVER" then why so many WARNINGS from God's WORD which are to BELIEVERS not to depart from the FAITH?
Your response...
As I've explained in detail already, not everything written to believers was about believers or for them. Every contributor to the NT knew and wrote of "false brethren," "tares," and/or false teachers within the Church. Many of their warnings are about (and to) these "tares" within the Church. I don't believe that the verses and passages that you've put forward in support of the idea that believers can lose their salvation are about believers but about false converts to the faith. I've explained why already.
These are your words above brother they are not God's Word. Then we have God's WORD that says all scripture is for BELIEVERS..

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 [16], All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 [11], Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come.

MATTHEW 4:4 [4], Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

All the WARNINGS in God's WORD brother are for BELIEVERS written for our admonition and we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them. Those who reject God's WARNINGS do so at there own peril.
LoveGodsWord said: WARNINGS ARE TO BELIEVERS NOT TO FALL AWAY
BELIEVERS are warned in *HEBREWS 3:7-19 not to have an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" doing so is to depart from the living God (v12). Then BELIEVERS are warned in ACTS 20:28-30 that after the departing of Paul that grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock and stating that of your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. The same warnings are repeated in *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 not to let any man DECEIVE us because before the second coming there will be a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS from the truth of God's WORD because they did not receive a love of the truth *2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10.

In 2 PETER 2:20-22 BELIEVERS are warned again about prophets and teachers who were once BELIEVERS who knew the way of righteousness and turned from the way of truth who now bring in false teachings to true believers. In GALATIANS 1:6 we are told about BELIEVERS turning from the grace of Christ to another gospel. These warnings are confirmed onces again to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 2:1-3 stating that we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip and that if we neglect our salvation; with every transgression and dosobedience receiving it's own reward.

BELIEVERS are further warned in *HEBREWS 10:26-31 that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The same warnings continue to BELIEVERS in *HEBREWS 10:35-39 not to cast away their confidence and if any man draws back to pedition they will not be saved. BELIEVERS are also warned of the many different ways we can FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in LUKE 8:11-15.
Your response...
I've already addressed all these passages in this thread. I'm not going to do so again. Instead, I'll just post again links to blog articles I've written that answer your saved-and-lost/works-salvation false doctrines

I agree you have made a response brother with your own words but, nope you did not address the scriptures or the posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your claims that a believer cannot fall away from God's Word. Your argument here is simply a false one as no one is arguing salvation is by works anywhere in this thread or elsewhere on this forum. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. According to God's WORD all those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and will not enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.
LoveGodsWord said: Then we have this warning to BELIEVERS in...
HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

NOTE: The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures. Continuing in v5 and have tasted the good word of God and the world to come. So the context here is very clear stating that these people were converted BELIEVERS that were enlightened with Gods' WORD and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and the power of the world to come. Now wait for it v6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. The IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS in the Word of GOD and who RECEIVED the HOLY Spirit!

Here once again in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we have a DIRECT WARNING to BELIEVERS who had received God's SPIRIT and fall back to a life of sin. Now brother be honest with yourself and consider these scriptures prayerfully as they go directly against what you are trying to teach here and you have not been able to respond to these scriptures since we have started our conversation.
Your resoponse (I added in the rest of the post your part quoting above)...
LOL! Oh, but I have! Many times in this thread and others! And what you think is "clear" is no such thing. Pffft! Somebody is not reading everything that I've posted to this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the dishonesty is all heavily on your part in the false doctrines you've been promoting in this thread.
You seem to be laughing here brother? Please provide the link were you have addressed HEBREWS 6:4-8 maybe I missed it? If you haven't addressed this scripture then why pretend that you have? The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (BELIEVERS) v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures. Continuing in v5 and have tasted the good word of God and the world to come. So the context here is very clear stating that these people were converted BELIEVERS that were enlightened with Gods' WORD and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and the power of the world to come. Now wait for it v6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. The IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS in the Word of GOD and who RECEIVED the HOLY Spirit! The only false doctrine is one that teaches against God's WORD. You have been provided God's WORD and in response you provide your own words which are not God's Word. There is no scripture that teaches once you are saved you are always saved. God's WORD teaches only those who CONTINUE in the faith *ACTS 14:22; JOHN 8:31-36; COLOSSIANS 1:23 to the END, BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *MATTHEW 24:12-14; MARK 13:13; MATTHEW 10:22; HEBREWS 3:6; HEBREWS 3:13-14 will receive eternal life...

JAMES 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Scripture is always a blessing. And you may really believe you are being loving and helpful in posting your interpretations of it. But, I can think of few more pernicious and destructive doctrines than the works-salvation/saved-and-lost ones you've been pushing in this thread. I'd like to be magnanimous in my tone toward you but the terrible way you've contorted Scripture is so appalling it's very difficult to be so. I pray God convicts you of your wresting of His word, of the Self-centeredness at the heart of your false doctrines, and brings you finally in repentance into the liberty and joy of the true Gospel.

Please do not make things up brother no one is saying or anyone has been posting here. Your claims above have no truth in them. Perhaps someone needs to look in the mirror? We are all told to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5. There is only one test to know if we are in the faith or not *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is the children of God do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4.

This is only posted in all love and as a help to you brother. Please prayerfull consider what is shared with you here. As posted earlier We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. According to God's WORD all those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and will not enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hi LGW:

So I take it you believe a believer can lose their salvation and become "un-born again".

That people that are once for all justifed, glorifed, already seated in heavenly places, that He who has begun a good work will perform it to that day, who have been given eternal life and no one can pluck them out of Jesus' or the Fathers hands can lose all that? So eternal life is a probationary eternal life?

YOu forget that all of Gods wrath for an individuals sins was poured out on Jesus! That Jesus became all of our sins and He was punished for all of our sins in our place!

Am I saying that is a license to sin? God forbid! It is a license to strive for holiness!

You also need to remember in Ephesians 2 that the saints are the elect from the foundation of the world!
Why would God save a soul if He knew He had to UNSAVE them?

Yes you showed lots of places in the OT where God was grieved and took action. And yes we as Gods children can gireve and quench the influence of the spirit in our lives- but those are not the removal of th espirit.

One is to sadden the Spirit and the other is to dowse or still the voice of the spirit. But neither of those verses or their meanings mean that the spirit unseals a believer!

Hello brother nolidad, nice to see you again.

What does HEBREWS 6:4-8 say? Are we literally BORN again or Spiritually Born again in the Spirit with a new heart to walk with God by faith? Can we GRIEVE and QUENCH the SPIRIT?

Most of the scriptures have already been provided to answer the questions above.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So the inspired writer of Hebrews erred when they wrote:
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

the word never means this:





nev·er
/ˈnevər/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
  1. 1.
    at no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
    "they had never been camping in their lives"
    synonyms: at no time, not at any time, not ever, not once, on no occasion;
    literaryne'er
    "his room is never tidy"
Every sin in a believers life has already been paid for! If the penalty of sin judicially has been paid for- how can God unsave a soul?

If a person who is a believer can lose their salvation (which by the way Gods Word says is kept in heaven for us) then how can they get it back again?

Hebrews 6:3-7 King James Version (KJV)
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You have relationship with god based on works and not by birth or in this case the new birth!

YOu imply that a person can be born again and again and again and again.

Why would you believe the inspired readers erred in their writings brother? Of course they did not. It is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it. Who is God's WORD written to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? Of course all of God's WORD is to BELIEVERS right? If someone who was a BELIEVER (past tense) and then becomes an UNBELIEVER (present tense) of God's WORD and no longer FOLLOWS God's WORD, than do God's promises apply to UNBELIEVERS? Of course not. All God's promises are to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense".

It is only those who endure temptation to the end BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12 All those who fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD back into a life of sin become UNBELIEVERS. All those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 2 TIMOTHY 3:5. Yes according to God's WORD as shown in the scripture WARNINGS througout the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT; which are written to BELIEVERS; a BELIEVER (past tense) can become an UNBELIEVER (present tense). That is why there are so many warnings in God's WORD to continue in the faith and endure temptation to the end believing and following God's WORD.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God).
 
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setst777

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Have I been crying and stamping my feet? No. But you're quite right that doing so doesn't change the Gospel.

Yes, indeed. Including the faith to believe in Christ itself.

Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.


We really do only work out what God has first worked in.

Nope. The Sovereign God draws men to Christ (John 6:44), convicts them of sin (John 16:8), gives repentance to them (2 Timothy 2:25), and imparts to them the faith to believe (see above). All that a man does in coming to faith in Christ is receive God's saving work and respond in faith, given by God, to the atoning work of Christ on their behalf. Salvation is a work of God in a man, which God initiates (Ephesians 2:4-5) and which He sustains (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) until He has accomplished His work in them unto the return of Christ. THIS is the Gospel (or the parts of it pertinent to our discussion, anyway).

See above.

And the faith to believe comes from God, not from ourselves. Prior to being saved, we are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) and alienated from God and enemies in our minds toward Him by our wicked works. (Colossians 1:21) In such a condition, no man can move toward God unaided. God must do the work Scripture says He does (see above) in order for anyone even to consider the possibility of being saved. So, the salvation of all believers is God-dependent from beginning to end, not believer-dependent.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (NKJV)
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
Yes, indeed. Including the faith to believe in Christ itself.

Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himselfmore highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

>>

setst RE: This is what I mean about tearing Scripture from its context and supplying your own meaning.

Romans 12:3-8
deal with gifts of the Spirit. We only receive the Spirit by faith, and the gifts of the Spirit are for those who already possess the Spirit by faith. To give your own meaning as if faith to believe to be saved is what is being taught in the Scripture you provided is a clear distortion of God's Word.

Regarding drawing of the Spirit, we already discussed that, and drawing of the Spirit is not regeneration, and drawing of the Spirit is for the whole world through the Gospel preaching - this drawing can be resisted. But those who do not resist are drawn.

Salvation is God's work in those who first believe. That is the message of the Gospel. John 3:16-18.

You got everything backwards from what the Gospel actually teaches.

You believe salvation comes before faith, when Scriptures teach you must believe to be saved.

You believe we are regenerated by the Spirit so we can believe, but the Scriptures teach we only receive the Spirit and its regenerating power by faith, and walking by the Spirit God gave us.

You have twisted everything God clearly declared as the Gospel into something unholy.

I gave you the Scriptures and you rejected them to hold onto your biased man-made views in direct violation of the Gospel.
 
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setst777

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Well, this is certainly a convenient way for you to describe what I've been doing, but it definitely isn't an accurate way. Just another of the many Strawmen you like to use in your discussions with me.

No, I ask you to ground your assertions about a verse in the verse itself, which you consistently fail to do. Almost always context helps us to understand the proper meaning of a particular verse but never by ignoring or altering entirely what the verse actually says which is, most of the time, what you end up doing in "explaining" what Scripture is saying.

Strawman. And my disagreement isn't with what God has said in His word, but with your interpretation of it.

No, it isn't. See my earlier posts that explain this to you. There is both the already-accomplished positional sanctification of the believer and the progressive sanctification of his daily condition or experience. The former is a spiritual reality obtained through the believer being in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, and thus forensically "perfected forever" (Hebrews 10:14), the latter, an ongoing process, continuing until the believer reaches heaven.

Again, as you so often do, you have made a comment about the passage you offer that says nothing like what the passage itself does. And this is why I so often ask you, "What does the verse say?" Where in the passage above does Jesus say, "Sanctification is God's work, but only in those who live by faith in me, walking by my Spirit"? No where. At all.

It has not escaped my notice that you have ignored so far every one of the verses/passages I posted that state that a believer's sanctification is an already-accomplished spiritual reality. That's telling, I think.

So, where does the matter of sanctification come up in the passages you've quoted here? I don't see the word "sanctify," or "sanctified," or "sanctification" appear once in any of them.

A pretty deceptive misquoting of my comments here. Here's what I actually wrote:

"You tried using this passage before in this slippery way but it didn't work then and it won't work now. The verse doesn't actually read as you have it here.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."


There is no "must" in this verse. And this is why upwards of 90% of all English versions of the Bible do not translate the verse with a "must" in it. This changes the tenor of the verse significantly. Instead of demanding as necessary the believer's departure from iniquity, the verse only commands it. There is no implicit threat in the verse if there is no "must" in it. There is only an "ought" where you would insinuate an "or else."


Now, how in the world do you get the idea that I think "departing from iniquity is optional" from what I've written here? Not once in all that I've written in any of the thousands of posts I've made on CF have I ever written "departing from iniquity is optional." Not once. It is this willful contortion of what you're reading that is leading you into the false doctrines you've been promoting in this thread.

The rest of your post is just another rehash of matters we've already discussed.

Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
It has not escaped my notice that you have ignored so far every one of the verses/passages I posted that state that a believer's sanctification is an already-accomplished spiritual reality.
>>

setst RE: All true Christians are sanctified by faith in Jesus - past tense. And remain so by remaining faithful to the end, walking by His Spirit.

Aiki writes (regarding 2 Timothy 2:19):

Now, how in the world do you get the idea that I think "departing from iniquity is optional" from what I've written here?

setst RE: You can't have it both ways. Either living a holy life before God is a must or its optional.

YOU are the one that used the word "optional." I quote you:
<<
If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional - temporarily, at least. If obedience were not optional, there would have been no room for obedience at all.
>>

At no time is faithful obedience optional; rather, that IS the NEW LIFE. ...

If you have not died to the OLD LIFE and are now living a NEW LIFE (DEAD TO SIN, and Following Christ by walking in His Spirit) you are NOT saved. Romans 6

Your faith is still dead.
 
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setst777

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Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
It has not escaped my notice that you have ignored so far every one of the verses/passages I posted that state that a believer's sanctification is an already-accomplished spiritual reality.
>>

setst RE: All true Christians are sanctified by faith in Jesus - past tense. And remain so by remaining faithful to the end, walking by His Spirit.

Aiki writes (regarding 2 Timothy 2:19):

Now, how in the world do you get the idea that I think "departing from iniquity is optional" from what I've written here?

setst RE: You can't have it both ways. Either living a holy life before God is a must or its optional.

YOU are the one that used the word "optional." I quote you:
<<
If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional - temporarily, at least. If obedience were not optional, there would have been no room for obedience at all.
>>

At no time is faithful obedience optional; rather, that IS the NEW LIFE. ...

If you have not died to the OLD LIFE and are now living a NEW LIFE (DEAD TO SIN, and Following Christ by walking in His Spirit) you are NOT saved. Romans 6

Your faith is still dead.
 
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nolidad

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Why would you believe the inspired readers erred in their writings brother? Of course they did not. It is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it. Who is God's WORD written to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? Of course all of God's WORD is to BELIEVERS right? If someone who was a BELIEVER (past tense) and then becomes an UNBELIEVER (present tense) of God's WORD and no longer FOLLOWS God's WORD, than do God's promises apply to UNBELIEVERS? Of course not. All God's promises are to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense".

It is only those who endure temptation to the end BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12 All those who fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD back into a life of sin become UNBELIEVERS. All those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 2 TIMOTHY 3:5. Yes according to God's WORD as shown in the scripture WARNINGS througout the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT; which are written to BELIEVERS; a BELIEVER (past tense) can become an UNBELIEVER (present tense). That is why there are so many warnings in God's WORD to continue in the faith and endure temptation to the end believing and following God's WORD.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God).


You make salvation conditioned on our performance and that is completely unbiblical. Also one can believe Gods Word and not be a believer. James said the devils believe and tremble.

When I say believer, I mean one who is born from above (John 3:3) and made a new creature (2 Cor. 5).

Jesus paid for every sin- not just most! If one can lose lose their salvation because of sin- then Jesus did not die for every sin and all children of God are in jeopardy! Because no one of us has attained experiential perfection.

The Bible does have an answer for those who fall away-

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also in Matt. 7:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Nowhere do we see even implied that Jesus would say, I knew you once but I don't know you now!

Sin is not the issue- A person is not saved because they stop sinning

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your doctrine is simply a variant of Jesus gets us in the door but we have to maintain our salvation by doing good deeds and avoiding bad deeds.

Also a person does not go to hell because they are sinners. They go to hell because they rejected Jesus as Savior and thus must pay the price for their sin because they rejected Gods payment for ALL their sin.

John 3:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
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setst777

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When I say believer, I mean one who is born from above (John 3:3) and made a new creature (2 Cor. 5).

Hi nolidad,

You write:

<<
When I say believer, I mean one who is born from above (John 3:3) and made a new creature (2 Cor. 5)
>>

setst RE:
You are only born of God by faith.
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

You only receive the Spirit of God by faith.
Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

You are only regenerated by the Spirit you received by faith. John 7:37-39

You write:
<<
You make salvation conditioned on our performance and that is completely unbiblical. Also one can believe Gods Word and not be a believer.
>>

Setst RE: If you take the time to read the letters of the Apostles to the Churches, you will see that they were writing to the true believers – the elect ones in Christ. You cannot say that anytime warnings are given to the believers to remain faithful and not to fall away, that this was only written for non-believers. The Apostles wrote their letters to the Churches for teaching, encouragement and for warning. You cannot exclude the warnings just because you believe you are guaranteed your faith, which is un-Biblical. It is by your faith that you receive God's grace to begin with.

According to God, our faith is not a work. And salvation is conditioned upon our repentance and faith, and to remain faithful to the end, walking by the Spirit of God to be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (WEB)
26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 Pay attention to yourself, and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Revelation 2:10 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3:11 (NIV) Bolding mine… 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging YOU to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1 John 2:15-17
15 Don’t love the world or the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. 17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.

God gives you His Spirit, and works His will in you by the Spirit, to those who remain faithful to walk by His Spiritonly these receive life.

Romans 8:8 (WEB) 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those
  • who are in Christ Jesus,
  • who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For IF you live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived:
God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reapeternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

If you do not faithfully walk by God’s Spirit you will succumb to sins hold on you, and you will be more severely punished by God than an unbeliever…

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished
  • who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
  • who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
  • and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
  • Branches are individuals.
  • Gentiles are included by faith.
Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And there is only one Israel, not many Israels.
  • Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
  • but must remain faithful
  • or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
  • That is why we must be afraid.

The Sovereign God chooses to grant His gift of saving grace to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and remain faithful to the end, walking by His Spirit. That is how God chooses to carry out His will regarding our salvation. I will not argue with God.

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Free Gift of Grace Paid for by Christ. . .

This free gift of God's grace onto salvation is received and kept by a genuine faith. And this saving grace is only possible because Christ paid for it on the cross for us.

Nolidad, you write:
<<
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
>>

Setst RE: This Passage, in context, is specifically referring only to anti-Christs.

1 John 2:19
18 Little children, these are the end times, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

Naturally, anti-Christs were never part of the church to begin with.

Nolidad writes:
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Sin is not the issue- A person is not saved because they stop sinning

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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setst RE:
Ephesians 2:8-9
shows us that:
  • grace is accessed through faith.
  • Verse 9 refers to grace (the subject), because:
  • saving faith (the agent) onto salvation is not a gift or work according to Scripture.
  • Grace onto salvation is God's gracious gift that we only accessed by faith as Scripture declares.
  • Grace onto salvation is the gift of God and is only access by faith according to Scripture.
Romans 5:1-2 (NIV)
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

The works God created for us to do is only made possible by God IF we remain faithful to walk by His Spirit.

Nolidad writes:
<<
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Setst RE: You have to know what believe and faith means to understand anything regarding the Gospel. You made a note earlier in your message that there are different kinds of faith. That is true. A true Bible faith is always accompanied by repentance from the previous life of sin, to that of living the New Life in Jesus by walking by the Spirit that indwells those who believe. Romans 6
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You make salvation conditioned on our performance and that is completely unbiblical. Also one can believe Gods Word and not be a believer. James said the devils believe and tremble.
Hello nolidad, you are confused brother. God's salvation has always been condtional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". The scriptures teach whenever anyone in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT turned away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD then God promises and protection no longer applied to them. As quoted earlier all through this thread and forum, we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to to seek God in repentance and confession of sins to seek God's forgivness to be free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16.

Of course one can profess to believe Gods' WORD and but not follow it. You shall know them by their fruits *MATTHEW 7:16-22. Many will say to him in that day "Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, depart from me you who work sin I never knew you *MATTHEW 7:22-23.
When I say believer, I mean one who is born from above (John 3:3) and made a new creature (2 Cor. 5).
Indeed brother so did I, that is why you were provided with the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 asking you what these scriptures means. I notice you did not respond to this question and the scripture there that talks about BELIEVERS who depart from God to return to a life of sin.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Jesus paid for every sin- not just most! If one can lose lose their salvation because of sin- then Jesus did not die for every sin and all children of God are in jeopardy! Because no one of us has attained experiential perfection.
Indeed brother not like some teach here, that salvation is cheap grace to continue in known unrepentant sin and count the blood of the convenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of grace by crucifying themselves the son of God afresh and putting him to open shame *HEBREWS 6:6; HEBREWS 10:29. Salvation is from sin, not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 3:4-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter the kingdom of heave because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Yep many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word)
 
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