No Graven Images...

Chris V++

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Have you ever noticed that no one whines about any alleged "Methodist bashing" or "Congregationalist bashing," etc. although they take their share of criticism? Its always one denomination.

What makes you think you are qualified to make that observation? Are you your own personal pope? :)
 
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Albion

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What makes you think you are qualified to make that observation?

Well, I have eyes...and memory...and I can read.

Good enough to notice what has been posted? I'd say so.
 
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Alithis

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...
Its glaringly obvious...
But man who follows man will do what he wills
The one who follows Jesus will do what He wills .
 
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thecolorsblend

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Would bowing down to Mary be a violation of the second commandment?
If it's intended as an act of honor and veneration, no.

If it's intended as an act of worship, yes.

But then they don't bow down to the gravestones. So the bowing down/ kneeling down to Marian statues seems a little different.
And well it should because she is different.
 
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Alithis

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What about people who bow down to their Bibles?

What about people who bow down to their beds when kneeling by them to pray?

Out of here......I knew it would become a Catholic bashing thread :doh:
What about
What about
What about...

What about pointing out the sin of another will never excuse ones own .
Sin never gets justified
Only the person who repents of it.
 
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Alithis

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Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they dont know or understand Catholicism.

I am betting this turns out to be yet another Catholic bashing thread!
Lol because thats how false freedom of speech works.. You can say what you like as ling as you do not make me feel uncomfortable about sin ...

If you call mt sin "Sin" then your bashing my group..
Lol way to silence the truth .

I find it interesting that you give the verse against making images and against bowing down to them to a child and they habe no problem knowing it means its wrong God says dont do it. So dont do it.

As for the blanket statement...
Quote .."
Nobody i know of in the Catholic church worships, crucifixes, statues, saints or Mary. If anybody thinks otherwise, then it proves they dont know or understand Catholicism." .

Define worship devotion reverence honour love ...
In my opinion based upon what is blatant in any city street in the phillipines or mexico or Spain That statement is a lie.
 
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dqhall

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...
Archaeologists found numerous statuettes of Asherah in Israel from the time of 2Kings. The remains of a Hebrew fort were discovered along a trading route near the edge of the Judean Desert on the way to the Red Sea. Kuntillet Ajrud was excavated by Israeli archaeologists when Israel occupied the Sinai Desert. Archaeologists found an image a man and woman with the inscription, "Yahweh and his Asherah" at Kuntillet Ajrud.
Ancient 'Yahweh And His Asherah' Inscriptions At Kuntillet ‘Ajrud Remain An Unsolved Biblical Mystery | Ancient Pages

They did not know they were not supposed to make images of their god(s).
 
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Foxfyre

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

I agree with your interpretation. God wants us to worship Him alone and not a lifeless idol or other object. Certainly sculptures, paintings, creches, public crosses, etc. are to focus our attention on or to pay respect to/honor God. The same with hand held little crosses, rosaries, and other means of concentrating our attention. We don't worship the objects. We use them to focus our attention on Him. I have never had a sense that God has a problem with those.

Without pretending that I know it for sure, I suspect the reason we don't have the original Biblical manuscripts, the cup Jesus drank from at the Last Supper, etc. is that God knew our tendency to so treasure that we would worship such things. Too many people practically worship the Bible as God and giving it unintended authority as they see it instead of using it to connect with God, the source of all truth and wisdom. There is a difference between a respect for that which is holy and sacred and worshiping the same.

For me the Second Commandment is an admonishment to not place anything or allow anything to be between ourselves and God. How could anybody see the Christ of the Ozarks as anything other than honoring God?

th
 
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Barney2.0

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It’s only a breaking of the first commandment if a Christian actually believes the image represents another god or devotes actual worship to it. Second temple Judaism also wasn’t iconoclastic as many people seem to think:

upload_2019-6-1_20-37-51.jpeg


That’s Moses in the river, Christianity got the idea of icons from Judaism not from paganism.
 
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Kenny'sID

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But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.

Wouldn't that simply be an exception, and by no means it is telling us the commandment is not what it appears.

Then we need to take the "make unto the" (or "for yourself" as it's put in the OP) part into account. Making it for personal use. The Cherabim were not constructed for personal use.
 
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TuxAme

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I didn't argue it's okay to always make an image, and it is not necessary for you to convince me of that. If that is what you believe, then I respect that. But please refrain from imposing it on me
I'm not "imposing" anything on you. What I suggested is simply what logically follows from your comments.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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It’s always weird when I see people say, “oh it means this” or “what God is talking about here”... like really? If Hod didn’t make it clear just say your not sure and stop giving your opinion. Our opinions are irrelevant. Either we know for certain because Hod made it clear or we don’t in which it’s best to say we don’t know.
 
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Kenny'sID

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It’s only a breaking of the first commandment if a Christian actually believes the image represents another god or devotes actual worship to it. Second temple Judaism also wasn’t iconoclastic as many people seem to think:

That's not what the scripture says.


The "or" there is huge, meaning the part after the "or" stands alone and is in no way dependent on the first comment.

It's specified as one or the other or both, and the ", or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth." says make no image of anything at all, Idol or otherwise, whether we bow down and worship it or not. No images, period.
 
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Grip Docility

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Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

Sometimes... God uses things to help people comprehend Spiritual matters.

An example are the two Cherubim of the covenant.

If you look at the two Cherubim, you will also note that the very Glory of God would dwell above the ark, and the blood was anointed at atonement, on the ark.

Now fast forward... 3 Crosses, one God, two men, only one man that turned to God.

Now for the Heavenly side... give Zechariah 3 a read and note that the name Joshua is the very English way of saying the name Jesus.

There are 4 people mentioned in the passage.
1) God
2) Angel of the Lord
3) Satan
4) Joshua

God the Son is before the Angel of the Lord, and at the Son's right side is Satan standing to accuse Him.

Notice that God only "Speaks" but is not "Locationaly Visible" in the passage?

Now, note a passage such as this, before the DBR...
(Mark 10:35-37)(Matthew 16:21-23)

In Job we are revealed that Satan is a "Prosecutor" of mankind that is still within heaven.

So what we "see" is God the Son, Satan at His right hand side, and the Angel across from Jesus.

Because John says "No man has seen God - Father reference- we can now see that Jesus is most likely standing before the Throne of God, with the Angel of God at the side of the Throne of God.

If we were to assume that Michael is at the right Hand of God the Father's Throne, we can then see that Satan is facing God the Father

MG
J S

This reveals that Satan thinks He's accusing a mere man, but in reality, he is squared off against God The Father, by Accusing God the Son.

As we know the filthy cloths that The Son is wearing are The Sins of mankind, that He is innocent of... we can now see how Satan has falsely condemned God the Son to death and is attempting to Condemn The Son beyond simple Mortal Death.

Enter Revelation 12:7-10

What's my point? There is a difference between worshiping a thing and learning it's Spiritual teaching.

This is my mere opinion
 
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Grip Docility

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Here's a zinger for you...

The first set of Stone 10 were carved by God, and because of the Golden Calf, thrown down unto destruction.

The second set were carved by human hands..
Exodus 34:1-2, but written by God.

Exodus 31:18 shows that God provided the first set.

Isn't it interesting that there are people that think adherence to the 10 saves them? As if, they erect a Golden Calf of the Law?

Ironically, people violate the 10 with this principle, as the 10 that sealed the covenant in Deuteronomy 31:26 were carved by human hands.
 
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Kenny'sID

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It’s always weird when I see people say, “oh it means this” or “what God is talking about here”... like really? If Hod didn’t make it clear just say your not sure and stop giving your opinion. Our opinions are irrelevant. Either we know for certain because Hod made it clear or we don’t in which it’s best to say we don’t know.


Yes, like really. Those things you mention are our opinion. It's what the bible says for us. :)
 
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Barney2.0

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That's not what the scripture says.



The "or" there is huge, meaning the part after the "or" stands alone and is in no way dependent on the first comment.

It's specified as one or the other or both, and the ", or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth." says make no image of anything at all, Idol or otherwise, whether we bow down and worship it or not. No images, period.
Actually Exodus 20:5 clarifies this by saying do not worship them so it’s talking about images of worship not general images or icons. But if that’s how you want to go about it, then I suppose Moses was an idol worshipper and you should remove your profile picture along with any photo in your house.
 
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