Who believes we are in the latter days and that the Rapture will happen in our lifetime?

nolidad said:

Well as the antichrist is always the non chosen of God and there is o verses saying the antichrist will be king over Israel I cannot say good point. for now I disagree with this point. If you have a strong bible reference(s) to prove this, I am more than willing to read and learn.

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There is no verse that states the Antichrist will be the King of Israel. Neither is there any verse that says the person will be the little horn, or the beast either.

That being the King of Israel, a person must be chosen by God for that purpose - and that a person must cannot be a gentile goes way back to Deuteronomy 17, as the Jews were in the Exodus.

God said to them....
14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Years back, I asked that very question to the Jews over at their messiah truth site. And they said the person has to be a Jew, and cannot be a gentile. They referred me to the above passage, which I am passing on to you.

The concept that the messiah must be anointed by a known prophet, that the Jews hold to, is that the anointing ceremony by virtue of it being by a known prophet, the prophet is speaking on behalf of God, and therefore it is God choosing that person.

False prophet though = big liar. And is not speaking for God.

nolidad said:

Well seeing we are in heaven for our wedding to Jesus- that is moot! We are in heaven till we return with Jesus!

Seeing as we co-reign with Jesus for 1,000 years that is moot

Seeing as heaven comes down to earth after the millennial kingdom that is moot as well!

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Heaven comes down and we get to go in and out as we please!

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Typical; you use scripture to prove that God and heaven come to the earth after the Millennium and it is correct that those worthy will co-reign with Jesus for the Mill.

But you don't use any scripture to prove where the marriage feast takes place. That is because we aren't told that in Revelation 19:6-9.
So; to your discredit, you make a wild guess and say it happens in heaven.
That theory is disproven by Revelation 7, where verses 1-3 set an earthly scene, that does not change and the Lords faithful people, robed in white and waving palm branches; are plainly in Jerusalem. Proved by Daniel 7:23 and Rev 13:7, where the people of God are still in the holy Land when the AC conquers them.

nolidad, so when a person emerges in a political power position, we should be alert for a person who is a Jew. And has a firm facial expression (stout look).

Whether it comes out that he is descended from the Caesar family as well - may or may not come out.

keras said:

That theory is disproven by Revelation 7, where verses 1-3 set an earthly scene, that does not change and the Lords faithful people, robed in white and waving palm branches; are plainly in Jerusalem. .

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Part of Revelation 7 is earthly.

But the part about them coming out of the great tribulation is in heaven. Although I don't think it is the rapture church (which happens before the great tribulation begins); but them who will die in the Lord during the course of the great tribulation.


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Douggg said:

Part of Revelation 7 is earthly.

But the part about them coming out of the great tribulation is in heaven. Although I don't think it is the rapture church (which happens before the great tribulation begins); but them who will die in the Lord during the course of the great tribulation.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

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ALL of Revelation 7 describes earthly scenes. The setting of verses 1-3, is not changed.
Revelation 7:1-14 is all about what will happen soon after the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Then Revelation 7:13-17 describes Eternity, where God comes down to the earth, proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear... Revelation 21:4

You make wrong assumptions and obvious errors when you say those in verse 14 are Great Trib martyrs. Firstly; they are not dead, and it isn't the GT meant there, but the Sixth Seal terrible ordeal.

Until you can show where the Bible says the Church will go to heaven, please desist in assuming that false idea.

keras said:

ALL of Revelation 7 describes earthly scenes. The setting of verses 1-3, is not changed.
Revelation 7:1-14 is all about what will happen soon after the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Then Revelation 7:13-17 describes Eternity, where God comes down to the earth, proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear... Revelation 21:4

You make wrong assumptions and obvious errors when you say those in verse 14 are Great Trib martyrs. Firstly; they are not dead, and it isn't the GT meant there, but the Sixth Seal terrible ordeal.

Until you can show where the Bible says the Church will go to heaven, please desist in assuming that false idea.

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Keras, how can these verses be taking place on earth? The throne is in heaven.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Douggg said:

Keras, how can these verses be taking place on earth? The throne is in heaven.

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This comment shows how Biblically uninformed you are.
Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 8:36 both prove that God's Throne can be seen on earth, if He wills it.
God, the angels and heaven, are all spiritual entities, in another dimension from us. Basically God, His angels and heaven itself, is anywhere and everywhere to us.

The great multitude from every tribe [of Israel] every race, nation and language, are all the faithful people who stood firm in their faith and trust in the Lord during the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the just happened Sixth Seal event.
They, we Christians; will travel to and live in all of the holy land and live as God always intended His people to live. Ample scripture supports this scenario.

keras said:

This comment shows how Biblically uninformed you are.
Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 8:36 both prove that God's Throne can be seen on earth, if He wills it.
God, the angels and heaven, are all spiritual entities, in another dimension from us. Basically God, His angels and heaven itself, is anywhere and everywhere to us.

The great multitude from every tribe [of Israel] every race, nation and language, are all the faithful people who stood firm in their faith and trust in the Lord during the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the just happened Sixth Seal event.
They, we Christians; will travel to and live in all of the holy land and live as God always intended His people to live. Ample scripture supports this scenario.

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The 6th seal is the START of the Day of the Lord, not the finish! There still remains the 7th seal before the book can be opened that will spell out Satan's downfall as the prince of earth - the spiritual leader or the "god" as Paul called him.
The great multitude cannot come from the Day of the Lord, for the 6th seal just STARTS it, not finishes it!

What you are missing: the 7th seal begins the time of Jacob's trouble and God's wrath poured out in the trumpets and then the vials. Jesus said the days of great tribulation would not come until after the abomination - and that abomination will be what divides the week. The week has not even started at the 6th seal - it does not start until the 7th seal is opened so the BOOK can be opened. The book contains the 70th week of Daniel.

Therefore you need to come up with another scenario as to the crowd too large to number. In fact, it is the just raptured church. It is the ONLY group of Revelation that will be too large to number: perhaps 50 generations of believers!

Douggg said:

Keras, how can these verses be taking place on earth? The throne is in heaven.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

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Douggg, I have discovered, his imagination seems much greater than normal. Of course the great crowd is in heaven.

He simply does not understand that two things absolutely must take place before the 7th seal that starts the time of Jacob's trouble: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church must be safely transported to heaven. Once God has seen these two things accomplished, THEN the 70th week can begin.

keras said:

ALL of Revelation 7 describes earthly scenes. The setting of verses 1-3, is not changed.
Revelation 7:1-14 is all about what will happen soon after the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Then Revelation 7:13-17 describes Eternity, where God comes down to the earth, proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear... Revelation 21:4

You make wrong assumptions and obvious errors when you say those in verse 14 are Great Trib martyrs. Firstly; they are not dead, and it isn't the GT meant there, but the Sixth Seal terrible ordeal.

Until you can show where the Bible says the Church will go to heaven, please desist in assuming that false idea.

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You have one good point here: this great crowd too large to number are not dead! They are raptured and now in their resurrection bodies. The truth is, John is just telling us that at the time of the pretrib rapture, it is going to be a time of great tribulation - but NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of: they won't begin until after the 7th trumpet marks the time of the abomination and those in Judea begin to flee.

There is only one group in Revelation that would be too large to number: the raptured church. Perhaps 50 generations of believers in one large group! it is NOT "eternity!" John has not yet even started the final "week" of 7 years.

I suggest you back up a mile or two and look at the forest, not a few trees. The main theme of Revelation is the BOOK with 7 seals that contains the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week goes from rev. 8 to Rev. 16. That is a good portion of the book of Revelation.

The 1st seal is the church sent out with the gospel
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th seals are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church.
The 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age - STILL ONGOING!
The 6th seal is after the rapture and the start of God's wrath.
The 7th seal begins the 70th week.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint
The 7th vial ends the week.

Douggg said:

Part of Revelation 7 is earthly.

But the part about them coming out of the great tribulation is in heaven. Although I don't think it is the rapture church (which happens before the great tribulation begins); but them who will die in the Lord during the course of the great tribulation.


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

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The problem with that theory is that John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint where the days of GT that Jesus spoke of begin. In fact, the worst days of GT will not begin until the mark is created and the image, and that is not until after chapter 14 where God warns about the mark. John does not jump around in time: His book is very orderly and sequential as far as time. The truth here is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, there will be great tribulation - just not the days Jesus told of.

keras said:

Typical; you use scripture to prove that God and heaven come to the earth after the Millennium and it is correct that those worthy will co-reign with Jesus for the Mill.

But you don't use any scripture to prove where the marriage feast takes place. That is because we aren't told that in Revelation 19:6-9.
So; to your discredit, you make a wild guess and say it happens in heaven.
That theory is disproven by Revelation 7, where verses 1-3 set an earthly scene, that does not change and the Lords faithful people, robed in white and waving palm branches; are plainly in Jerusalem. Proved by Daniel 7:23 and Rev 13:7, where the people of God are still in the holy Land when the AC conquers them.

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It is not a wild guess. It is taking John at his written word. John gives is a very strict chronology: after the 70th week has ended, (7th vial) and after the destruction of Mystery Babylon (Jerusalem - the Headquarters for the Beast and False Prophet) then John switches to the heavenly scene: vast multitudes in heaven preparing for the marriage and supper, which OF COURSE will take place in heaven before Jesus with the armies of heaven descend.

Your theory of Rev. 7 is just a bogus. You should learn to trust John's chronology.

keras said:

Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 8:36 both prove that God's Throne can be seen on earth, if He wills it.
God, the angels and heaven, are all spiritual entities, in another dimension from us. Basically God, His angels and heaven itself, is anywhere and everywhere to us.

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Those in Revelation 7:9-17 were not just seeing God's throne, but they themselves were standing before it, and were in the presence of the angels, the elders, and the four beasts, according to the text.

I think you meant Acts 7:55 and not Acts 8:36 btw. Stephen seeing the Glory of God , and Jesus standing of the right hand of God.

The point is that the great multitude were themselves standing before the throne... not like Ezekiel in a vision, and Stephen seeing up to heaven.

Douggg said:

Those in Revelation 7:9-17 were not just seeing God's throne, but they themselves were standing before it, and were in the presence of the angels, the elders, and the four beasts, according to the text.

I think you meant Acts 7:55 and not Acts 8:36 btw. Stephen seeing the Glory of God , and Jesus standing of the right hand of God.

The point is that the great multitude were themselves standing before the throne... not like Ezekiel in a vision, and Stephen seeing up to heaven.

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Thanks, I did mean Acts of the Apostles 7:36.

I stand by my contention that the vast multitude seen in Revelation 7:9 are on earth, in Jerusalem.
There is no mention of a change in location in that chapter. John sees the 144,000 being selected, then he says; After this, I beheld a great multitude...… That they ARE on earth, is supported by the many other prophesies, saying how the Lord's people will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land, Ezekiel 38:10-12 is just one example, whereas you have no support for the idea they are in heaven.
Maybe there palm branch's in heaven, but that small detail also makes an earthly venue more probable.

iamlamad said:

John switches to the heavenly scene: vast multitudes in heaven preparing for the marriage and supper, which OF COURSE will take place in heaven before Jesus with the armies of heaven descend.

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This is another wrong assumption.
Jesus has left heaven, on His way to the earth, when He gathers His faithful people, as Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:17 both tell us. It seems the marriage feast may take place in the clouds, or more likely in Jerusalem, after Jesus has disposed of Satan at Armageddon.
Your theory of the Church in heaven before this, is false and totally unsupported by scripture.

iamlamad said:

The 6th seal is the START of the Day of the Lord, not the finish!

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The Sixth Seal IS the Day of the Lord; a literal one day event that will change the world as we know it. If you read all the prophesies about that forthcoming Day, you would know what it is and how it will fulfil this.
The Seventh Seal is just a time gap; of 'about' 20 years earth time, that is the same as a half hour of time in heaven. So the time from after the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns will be 20 +/- years, which is about right for all that is prophesied to happen then.

keras said:

The Sixth Seal IS the Day of the Lord; a literal one day event that will change the world as we know it. If you read all the prophesies about that forthcoming Day, you would know what it is and how it will fulfil this.
The Seventh Seal is just a time gap; of 'about' 20 years earth time, that is the same as a half hour of time in heaven. So the time from after the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns will be 20 +/- years, which is about right for all that is prophesied to happen then.

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7th seal......silence....repent!

Habakkuk 2:20
“But YAHWEH is in Holy temple.
Let all the earth keep silent<2013> before HIM.”

Zepheniah 1:7
Be silent<2013> in the presence of 'Adonay YAHWEH; For the day of YAHWEH is at hand,
For YAHWEH has prepared a sacrifice; He sanctifies ones-being-Called/#2822 klhtouv of Him. [Revelation 19:17]

Zechariah 2
13 “Be silent<2013>, all flesh, before YAHWEH, for He is roused from HIS holy habitation!”

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence/sigh<4602> in heaven for about half an hour.
=========================

Ezekiel 39:
17 " And thou son of adam, thus He says my Lord Yahweh, say thou! to bird of every wing, and to all of beast of the field: 'be assembled<06908> ye! and come ye! together<0622> ye from round about on sacrifice of Me which I sacrificing for ye,
a sacrifice great on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and ye drink blood.
18 Flesh of mighty-ones ye shall eat, and blood of princes of the Land ye shall drink.....[Revelation 19:17-18]

Revelation 19
17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered<4863! into the Supper of the Great God.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Zeph 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.
Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor
====================================
"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation

4430. ptoma from the alternate of 4098;
a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.
G4430 πτῶμα (ptōma), occurs 5 times in 4 verses

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.

4983 soma from 4982;
the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave.......... G4983 σῶμα (sōma), occurs 146 times in 122 verses

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'

,

Douggg said:

Those in Revelation 7:9-17 were not just seeing God's throne, but they themselves were standing before it, and were in the presence of the angels, the elders, and the four beasts, according to the text.

I think you meant Acts 7:55 and not Acts 8:36 btw. Stephen seeing the Glory of God , and Jesus standing of the right hand of God.

The point is that the great multitude were themselves standing before the throne... not like Ezekiel in a vision, and Stephen seeing up to heaven.

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I agree: they were THERE before the throne!
WE are going to be there soon!

LittleLambofJesus said:

7th seal......silence....repent!

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Seventh Seal - silence in heaven......all hell breaks loose on earth!
Proved by the following verses, detailing the 7 Trumpet punishments, then the 7 Bowls.

Your scriptural 'proofs', actually support the silence in heaven, while there is a great sacrifice on earth.

iamlamad said:

I agree: they were THERE before the throne!
WE are going to be there soon!

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Really? You have some very fanciful ideas.
Do you consider yourself worthy to live in heaven?
When was the Command of Matthew 28:10-20 rescinded?

keras said:

Thanks, I did mean Acts of the Apostles 7:36.

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I think you mean Acts 7:55

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

LittleLambofJesus said:

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.
Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor

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These historical facts show how the 1st century Jews were virtually wiped out. There were very few survivors of those taken into captivity; slavery, as well. Life was short on the galleys and in servitude.
The main group who did survive, were the Christian Jews, who fled to Pella and from there spread the Gospel to the 'Gentile' House of Israel, making Jesus' mission successful. Matthew 15:4
Those who call themselves Jews today, mostly are not descended from Judah or Benjamin at all, they are converts to Judaism, over the last 1000 years.

This truth destroys the concept of a Jewish redemption as touted by the 'rapture to heaven' proponents. That theory is like bucket full of holes, just doesn't hold water!