What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Major1 · May 31, 2019

crossnote said:
I have a hard time believing in purgatory as it...

1. Smacks similarities to a soft form of reincarnation (hence salvation by works).

2. Such Scriptures as ...
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3. It is not safe to derive our beliefs from the experiences of others (e.g. Near Death Experiences over Scripture).

4. Flies in the face of Christ's atonement...Galatians 2:21 (NASB) "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Correct!!!

The Bible teaches Resurrection not reincarnation.

Major1 · May 31, 2019

DennisTate said:
I don't blame you at all..........
It would be interesting how former Skeptic and near death experiencer Howard Storm would respond to this question?

With all due respect, I would have to disagree with your thinking that a near death experience validate Purgatory.

Dead is dead. Not dead is not dead.

"The scientific evidence suggests that all aspects of the near-death experience have a biological basis."

I read and understand that a man wrote a book about his experience. He said that when he died he went to heaven and saw Jesus and the Father. He said he saw the room where spare body parts are kept and distributed.

Those kinds of things are nothing more than the brain projecting what the subconscious would like see happen and are not in fact reality.....IMHO.

Major1 · May 31, 2019

Lost4words said:
I believe in purgatory 100%

God love ya sister.

I love the puppy!!! Is it yours????

Can you post the Scriptures where we can find the word "PURGATORY" or even an explination describing such a place?

Albion · May 31, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I've done this many times. It's one of my methods for evangelizing Protestants. It's pretty effective too.

But do you describe/explain to them ALL the aspects and workings of Purgatory before seeing what they believe? Not including the word itself, of course.

I have heard a lot of people try to sanitize Purgatory in the telling until what comes out of their mouths bears almost no resemblance to what Purgatory is supposed to be like.

Albion · May 31, 2019

Major1 said:
I read and understand that a man wrote a book about his experience. He said that when he died he went to heaven and saw Jesus and the Father. He said he saw the room where spare body parts are kept and distributed.

Those kinds of things are nothing more than the brain projecting what the subconscious would like see happen and are not in fact reality.....IMHO.

Those are the kinds of claims that most people will dismiss. However, there are also some well-researched accounts that are very difficult to explain away.

Lost4words · May 31, 2019

Major1 said:
God love ya sister.

I love the puppy!!! Is it yours????

Can you post the Scriptures where we can find the word "PURGATORY" or even an explination describing such a place?

Not sister!

Major1, you are against ALL THINGS CATHOLIC as has been proven again and again in your posts. I am not going to fall for your bait so that you can Catholic bash yet again.

God bless you

(Scripture is there to show purgatory but you would always deny that )

Albion · May 31, 2019

Major1 said:
Can you post the Scriptures where we can find the word "PURGATORY" or even an explination describing such a place?

Certainly not--which is why you arent going to get even an attempt at an answer to that question.

DennisTate · May 31, 2019

Major1 said:
With all due respect, I would have to disagree with your thinking that a near death experience validate Purgatory.

Dead is dead. Not dead is not dead.

"The scientific evidence suggests that all aspects of the near-death experience have a biological basis."

I read and understand that a man wrote a book about his experience. He said that when he died he went to heaven and saw Jesus and the Father. He said he saw the room where spare body parts are kept and distributed.

Those kinds of things are nothing more than the brain projecting what the subconscious would like see happen and are not in fact reality.....IMHO.

On the other hand.....
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus even while human was able to resurrect Lazarus and others so when somebody reports that they saw themselves dead..........

... and then report that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his immortal glorious body convinces them to come back...... .then it is possible that their near death experience ..... was actually a death experience from which they were resurrected???

Bob Jones is an example of a Christian who was shown that he was dead..... but was asked by Jesus to go back and touch the lives of a group of people who would set the stage for one billion souls coming to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in these latter days.

Bob Jones was very involved with the anti-abortion movement.

DennisTate · May 31, 2019

Major1 said:
I appreciate your thoughts and I do not mean to be argumentative but there is NO such thing as Purgatory in the Scriptures.

Now if you want to believe in such a thing then of course feel free to do so.

But I must tell you that Purgatory is strictly a Catholic dogman and is not found anywhere in the Scriptures.

Yes, God invented time and He actually exists outside of time itself, but that IMO has nothing to do with you and me dyeing and then living some how to do enough good to outweigh our sins while we were alive.

So it impossible for man to work out his salvation through punishments in a non-existent place called purgatory. The concept of purgatory is an assimilation of Greek mythology and their belief in the underworld. Purgatory is not a word found in the bible nor is it a biblical truth.

RCC Catechism of the Catholic Church #1030 defines Purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified”.

Over and over again we find that Jesus “redeemed us” in 1 Peter 1:19,20.

In Acts 20:28 He “purchased us”!

In Revelation 1:5...… He “washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

The fact is that when Jesus shouted from the cross in John 19:30...…..
“It is Finished”!!!!! He was professing that sins had been wiped away from all believers as Isaiah said in Isiah 53:5 “and with His stripes we are healed!”
Believers can know that there is no purgatory simply because the Bible tells us in 2 Corth. 5:21......
“… he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

It’s the great exchange by which we can lose our sins and gain His righteousness, and if we have His righteousness, we are cleansed of sin. We need no further purification.

Some near death experiencers report having a pretty rough Life Review.

The Life Review can seem to last in many ways.... as long as our physical life was..... or longer..... because time is different during this Life Review.

When a Christian basically lives for self...... or seems to work for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but we are really trying to prove we are smarter than others......... or we may be doing so for the praises of people........ or for some other basically selfish reason..... then the Life Review part of an NDE........ is of a nature that could lead to Roman Catholic near death experiencers ...... and before them Jewish near death experiencers...... (perhaps even Lazarus).... describing events that ended up being described by the word "Purgatory" although you are correc the word is not in the Jewish or Christian scriptures.

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

DennisTate said:
On the other hand.....
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus even while human was able to resurrect Lazarus and others so when somebody reports that they saw themselves dead..........

... and then report that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his immortal glorious body convinces them to come back...... .then it is possible that their near death experience ..... was actually a death experience from which they were resurrected???

Bob Jones is an example of a Christian who was shown that he was dead..... but was asked by Jesus to go back and touch the lives of a group of people who would set the stage for one billion souls coming to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in these latter days.

Bob Jones was very involved with the anti-abortion movement.

All good points brother. I would say that the Resurrection of Jesus does not apply as He was God and as such could not die.

Again, I am only giving my opinion and I am not an expert in the fiel. I would also say that near-death experiences today must be evaluated by Scripture rather than solely by experience and what someone says. Scripture does not offer an established pattern of this type of communication. In addition, Satan is called the father of lies and could certainly use a near-death experience to deceive a person into believing something about the afterlife that is not true.

Then of course there are several Scriptures which tell us that NOP ONE can see God as He is a "consuming flame of righteousness".

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
Not sister!

Major1, you are against ALL THINGS CATHOLIC as has been proven again and again in your posts. I am not going to fall for your bait so that you can Catholic bash yet again.

God bless you

(Scripture is there to show purgatory but you would always deny that )

No problem for me.

By the way, I am NOT against ALL THINGS CATHOLIC.

I am however very FOR ALL THINGS THAT ARE BIBLICAL.

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
Certainly not--which is why you arent going to get even an attempt at an answer to that question.

Yes. I know that. But you and I know that it makes the point that it actually does not exist.

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
Those are the kinds of claims that most people will dismiss. However, there are also some well-researched accounts that are very difficult to explain away.

I would say that there is just as many researched accounts where the almost dead had no experiences at all.

IMO, it all comes down to what someone said. Kind of like how the 1 pound fish I caught turned into a 15 pound bass the more I told the story.

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

DennisTate said:
On the other hand.....
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus even while human was able to resurrect Lazarus and others so when somebody reports that they saw themselves dead..........

... and then report that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his immortal glorious body convinces them to come back...... .then it is possible that their near death experience ..... was actually a death experience from which they were resurrected???

Bob Jones is an example of a Christian who was shown that he was dead..... but was asked by Jesus to go back and touch the lives of a group of people who would set the stage for one billion souls coming to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in these latter days.

Bob Jones was very involved with the anti-abortion movement.

If I were you......I do not think that I would use Bob Jones as an example.

Isaiah 9:15: “The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.”

Bob Jones first became known by being part of the Kansas city prophets back in the 1980’s. During this time period there was a group called Grace Ministries' ministerial team which consisted of Paul Cain, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, David Parker, Jim Goll, Francis Frangipane and Mike Bickle that were of the former the Kansas City Fellowship (that became the Metro Vineyard of Kansas City).
Bob Jones

Jones once said...…
“He then saw Jesus in the form of a light who would grab and kiss” men and women of different ages and then make them disappear by absorbing them into his body! “It was like two big ole doors right here in his heart and it'd be just that, and they was gone.” “… He then saw people that Jesus didn't want who were on “an elevator and an escalator” to hell which was like “a cold storage place.” Jesus then commissioned him to touch the leaders in a new last days church so that he could absorb “a billion souls unto myself in the last day,” Jones said.
(Mike Bickle with Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, transcript, series of five tapes from the fall of 1988.)

Bickle later related that during his trip to heaven Jesus commissioned him to be one of God's new generals to lead his end time army. Surely if Jones is one of the churches new general’s we will be led to defeat.

What kind of Jesus is this that Jones presents to the church? Who kisses men and absorbs people.

Major1 · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
Those are the kinds of claims that most people will dismiss. However, there are also some well-researched accounts that are very difficult to explain away.

Some people say that when we die, our physical body remains here on Earth, while our life energy (Prana-Shakti) is released into the universe. Basically, though we cease to exist, our consciousness continues.

That idea is rooted in Reincarnation.

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Major1 said:
I would say that there is just as many researched accounts where the almost dead had no experiences at all.

Oh certainly, but it takes only a few examples that cannot be explained away to make the case for life after death, or something about it, no matter how many instances there are of the person reporting nothing.

IMO, it all comes down to what someone said. Kind of like how the 1 pound fish I caught turned into a 15 pound bass the more I told the story.

Well, the ones that are of that sort--and we know of many such--arent worth anything, and yes, a lot of people who want to believe them still will do so. It is the ones that cannot be explained in any way other than as the person testifies which matter.

Shimokita · Jun 1, 2019

Major1 said:
RCC Catechism of the Catholic Church #1030 defines Purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified”.

Are you completely pure, friend?

If you are completely pure why do you continue to sin?

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Shimokita said:
Are you completely pure, friend?

If you are completely pure why do you continue to sin?

What's that have to do with Purgatory?

Shimokita · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
What's that have to do with Purgatory?

I didn't ask you.

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

I wasn't answering those questions, so that reply is meaningless.

Purgatory is the topic here. Do do you have an answer to my question to give to any reader?

What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Is the concept of Purgatory perhaps more accurate than Heaven vs Hell?

Yes

No

Perhaps..... and I kind of hope so?!

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