BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

LoveGodsWord said:

If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us?

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Technically - NO.

Any reference to spacial movement in the scriptures has to do with relationship and not to literal movement. For instance the withdrawing of His Spirit, the Spirit descending on Jesus at His baptism, the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, His falling on certain people for ministry - and what have you.

God's Spirit is omnipresent. He "fills" Heaven and earth. He is infinite and not finite. He cannot be either measured or contained.

But - more to your question as I understand you to likely mean it ---- NO. We were sealed for eternity by His Spirit when we believed. He will never leave us nor forsake us. He Who began a good work in us (God's Spirit) will complete it - no ifs, ands or buts. We have His Word on it.

setst777 said:

You misunderstand the Scriptures and the Gospel. Salvation is never performance based as if your works could justify you.

Neither LoveGodsWord, nor any Christian on this board that I am aware, of believes that salvation is performance based. So your argument and disagreement is a red hearing.

All true Christians believe just as the Gospel teaches - that true faith involves repentance to the old life of sin as our Master, and then, by that same faith, to live for our rightful Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

By this faith we receive the Spirit of God that frees us from sin, so that we now live the New LIFE by faith. This is the salvation God offers.

That is God's Plan. That is the Gospel. We do not earn salvation by our faithfulness; rather, God freely saves anyone who will repent and believe in His Son, listening to and following Him.

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

This is sanctification, and is salvation.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.

• 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
• whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
• 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do notgive up.

The only acceptable worship that God accepts from those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,

• to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
• holy and pleasing to God—
• this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Doesn't God have a right to freely grant salvation to the ones who truly love Him?

So why call a true Bible Faith works, when God clearly teaches just the opposite?

Don't you want the New Life that God offers?

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It's not about me and what I believe. I think you are preaching to the choir here.

LoveGodsWord said:

Not really brother aiki, God's WORD is never extraneous or irrelevant.

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No, it's not. But your use of it and your interpretation of it may be.

LoveGodsWord said:

It is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it over the traditions and teachings of those who seek to break the commandments of God.

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Does that include your "traditions and teachings"? I suspect not.

LoveGodsWord said:

You responding to God's WORD with your words does not make what you say true as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

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I'm responding to your interpretation of God's word. And, no, my merely saying a thing is so doesn't make it so. Which is why I am careful always to offer a rationale for my understanding of Scripture, using the tools of good hermeneutics to do so.

LoveGodsWord said:

You are free to beleive as you wish brother.

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Yes, I am well aware that I am free to believe as I think best.

LoveGodsWord said:

Well that is not true brother. It is God's WORD not mine that is shared and it is never irrelavent.

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It is God's word with your emphasis, additions, connections and spin added to it. And some of these things you impose upon Scripture are irrelevant to the points under discussion.

LoveGodsWord said:

Indeed that is why supporting scriptures have been provded through out this thread and in the OP that show that if we GREIVE God's Spirit He will not force us to follow him.

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God does not force His children to follow Him, no, but He also does not abandon them when they stray. Grieving the Spirit nowhere in Scripture is made tantamount to a loss of salvation. As far as I'm concerned, that is something you read into Scripture.

LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

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I don't know what it is, exactly, you are trying to communicate through the bolded parts of this passage, but, as I already pointed out, the event in view did not involve God abandoning the Israelites but only keeping them from the blessing of the Promised Land. The Israelites strayed in unbelief from God, but He remained faithful to them, regardless - just as He does for the born-again believer today.

LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

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Again, what is it you're trying to make the bolded sections communicate? They speak of a false convert, a "tare" in the Church. God does not abandon a false convert nor do they lose their salvation. A false convert was never in possession of either thing - hence the end described in verse 8.

LoveGodsWord said:

2 PETER 2:20-22
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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All caps and bolding doesn't change the fact that Peter is talking about false converts here, false teachers, actually, who had some knowledge of the truth, of the way of righteousness, and did not only turn from it but perverted it to their own selfish ends.

LoveGodsWord said:

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

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And so? Many false converts have a very thorough knowledge of God but it is only at the level of their intellect that this is so. And when they try to live the Christian life without the indwelling Spirit as their Power Source, eventually they abandon the faith that was never truly theirs - a frequent and uncontroversial teaching in Scripture.

LoveGodsWord said:

Now brother these are God's WORD not my words. You are free to believe as you wish but as you can see here they do indeed disagree with you. Something to pray about don't you think?

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Actually, God's word doesn't disagree with me at all. You, though, well, that's another story.

LoveGodsWord said:

You seem to be just repeating yourself here brother without reading or addressing the previous post which looks at the Greek Word used here for TO/FOR/UNTO which has direct application to EPHESIANS 4:30 while at the same time trying to argue things I am not saying or believe.

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And you are making a basic interpretive error by assuming that a word always has the same referent. Many words in Scripture refer to different things, depending upon what the context allows and indicates. The word "love" in Scripture is a great example. There is "phileo" love, "eros" love, "agape" love, and "storge" love; "love" may also appear as a verb or a noun; "love" may refer to an attitude or an action, to a strong desire, or deep affection. This wide variation in what it is a word is referring to is common to many words in Scripture, as any Bible lexicon reveals. In the case of Ephesians 4:30, "redemption" does NOT refer to the redemption of Calvary but to the redemption (glorification) of the believer's body at the Last Day. I've already explained - from Scripture - why.

LoveGodsWord said:

Why you think I am triyng to argue that I do not believe this after I stated that this is the main applicaiton of the scriptures from the very first post?

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You seem not to be reading my posts. My problem isn't that you've agreed that Paul referred to the Second Coming when he used the word "redemption" but that you have a secondary - and illegitimate - "application" of the word you want to impose upon what Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:30. Paul only meant the Second Coming. Any other meaning you give to the word "redemption" in the verse is not in accord with Paul's intended meaning. You are doing this because of the interpretive mistake you're making that I described above.

LoveGodsWord said:

Why are you continuing to argue that EPHESIANS 4:30 does not apply to the 2nd coming when I have stated from the very start that it does?

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See? Clearly, you are not understanding my posts at all. I have never opposed the idea that Paul is referring to the Second Coming in Ephesians 4:30. My contention is that the Second Coming was only that to which he was referring when he used the word "redemption." If you can mistake so badly what I'm writing, it explains how you're coming to so much false doctrine as you try to parse Scripture.

LoveGodsWord said:

NOTE: There is no future day of physical REDEMPTION if we have not first experienced the day of REDEMPTION and the price paid in full at Calvery for our sins through the BLOOD of JESUS who paid the price for our sins in full brother. We are only in Christ as we come to the cross and accept what JESUS has done for us in paying the ransom for our sins.

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So what? None of this alters Paul's intended meaning in Ephesians 4:30. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:

An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to/for/unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins

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False. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:

I do not have a saved lost doctrine brother. God's WORD says there are BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS in God's WORD and all those who turn away from God's WORD who become UNBELIEVERS will not enter into God's REST because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 3:6-19.

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This is exactly what the saved-and-lost doctrine espouses. "Become unbelievers" implies that the person becoming an unbeliever is presently something else - most obviously, a believer. What you have written, then, is that a believer can become an unbeliever which is the saved-and-lost doctrine.

LoveGodsWord said:

As posted to you from the very beggining the main application to EPHESIANS 4:30 is in relation to the 2nd coming. Why you think I am triyng to argue that I do not believe this after I stated that this is the main applicaiton of the scriptures from the very first post?

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Read my post more carefully. I am not arguing about the Second Coming but about your "secondary application" that expands Paul's words to include Calvary. How you can miss this is beyond me. Yikes!

LoveGodsWord said:

All that was provides earlier was a complimentary application of REDEMPTION being related to the cross and that you cannot have a future physical redemtion without first having the spiritual through the BLOOD of the lamb.

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While it is true that the spiritual redemption of Man at Calvary makes the physical redemption of the body possible, the redemption of Calvary is not what Paul was talking about in Ephesians 4:30! If I say, "My dog will be ten years old in a week," am I referring to all of his other birthdays in saying so? No. They might have been necessary to my dog coming to his tenth birthday, but they are not what I am talking about when I refer to my dog's tenth birthday. This isn't that hard to understand...

LoveGodsWord said:

Have a look at all the scriptures you have provided. I believe them and all of them are true praise be to God. Note however that all the scriptures you have provided here ONLY have application to BELIEVERS in the "PRESENT TENSE". None of the scriptures you have provided say a BELIEVER cannot FALL AWAY and become an "UNBELIEVER" now do they.

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So? None of them imply in any way that the believer can fall away, either! What's your point?

LoveGodsWord said:

No where in the scriptures you have provided above say as you claim that "Salvation is a done deal" now do they?

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I never said that they did. But if you had read and thought carefully about what I'm writing, you'd have understood this. It seems you handle my posts just as poorly as you do Scripture.

LoveGodsWord said:

Now theses promises are true and sures indeed but there application is ONLY to BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" we have these promises now as we CONTINUE to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

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They aren't promises but statements of fact. And not one of the passages offers any of the caveats you describe here.

LoveGodsWord said:

MATTHEW 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

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Yes? And so? Obviously he who endures to the end will be saved. But this will be the case for all who are truly born again. God has promised to make sure of it.

Philippians 1:6 (NKJV)
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

LoveGodsWord said:

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

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See above.

LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:14; 23
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

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See above.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your confused here brother. It was the "UNBELIEVERS" those who rejected God's WORD to continue in sin God rejected. God did not reject all those who repented of their sins and turned to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his Word. The scriptures do indeed bear record...

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Well, go ahead and show me in the Book of Numbers, to which Hebrews 3 and 4 refer, where what you say here happened. What I read in Numbers after the failure of the Israelites at the borders of Canaan is the continuation with, and preservation of, Israel by God in the wilderness.

LoveGodsWord said:

As posted and shared through the scriptures already. Where did I ever post that God utterly rejected ISRAEL? I didn't. It was only those who did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD that he rejected. Those who repented or BELIEVED and FOLLOWED God's WORD he never forsakes.

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You really aren't reading and understanding my posts, are you? How much more are you failing to understand the eternal and divine truths of God?

LoveGodsWord said:

Your struggling a bit here brother aren't you. Those passages say nothing about false converts. They are talking about BELIEVERS that received God's Spirit!

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No struggling on my part, only on yours.

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Oscarr said:

My view is that performance-based Christians have an attitude of fear that if they just stop trying to perform, they will fall away into sin and end up in hell. So they do their best to live by the Law as they perceive it. But they still have uncertainty because they know that they are not keeping the Law perfectly, as no one can. If they are challenged, they will say they are not trying to keep the Law, but they are living by "the Word of God" or "the commandments of Christ"; but whatever they call it, they are self-orientated and judge themselves on their performance instead of resting in Christ for the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in them.

The fact is, they have a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-eyed view of God. The God of their imagination is not the God of the Bible. Their imaginary God may have "saved" them, but is now monitoring them to ensure that they are behaving themselves every day. What they are trying to do is to "pay" God for His salvation with their good works, when in reality, Jesus has already paid the full price when He died on the cross.

The trust is that the God of the Bible is almighty. The gospel of Christ is not only the power of God to lead us to salvation, that "by grace we are saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God", but it is the power of almighty God to keep us walking in the Spirit.

Conversion to Christ is not only a change of direction in our attitude to Christ, but it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and He is the One who is working in us to transform our minds to conform to the image of Christ. As we rest on Christ in faith, this releases the Holy Spirit in us to do the work of sanctification and to keep us in the way of righteousness all the way to glory.

But the performance-based Christian cannot rest in Christ, and through his self-effort, the Holy Spirit is quenched within him, and cannot do the Work he wants to do, so the performance-based Christian is more likely to fall away than the one who is resting in Christ by faith - whose God is the God of the Bible, and is all-powerful, well able to keep those who trust in Him walking in the Spirit without falling away.

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True. I am so glad that Hebrews 10:2 made it clear to us that, once we believe in our hearts that Jesus was the perfect offering, we should have no more consciousness of sin ever.

I believe Jesus is honored when I believe that, and the Holy Spirit testify to the same truth from Hebrews 10: 15-17

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Guojing said:

True. I am so glad that Hebrews 10:2 made it clear to us that, once we believe in our hearts that Jesus was the perfect offering, we should have no more consciousness of sin ever.

I believe Jesus is honored when I believe that, and the Holy Spirit testify to the same truth from Hebrews 10: 15-17

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

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"Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:4-7).

These are excellent instructions from Peter to maintain our walk in the Spirit after we have been saved by grace. A good Puritan Bible teacher says that grace has a declining aspect to it if it is not maintained through renewing our faith in Christ every day. I like that.

So, we start with faith in Christ alone for our salvation.
Then, we add to our faith, goodness. We work towards being a generally good person.
We add to our goodness, knowledge. We do that by reading and understanding the Word of God. But knowledge is not enough, because the demons know more about the Word of God than we do.
We add to our knowledge, self-control. We are always controlled and sensible and what we do. Something I think that Bethel church people need to take notice of. But there are plenty of knowledgeable, self-controlled atheists as well, so we need more.
So we add perseverance. This means that we stand on our faith and endure through better or worse until the end. But ungodly people can be all these things, so we need to add godliness to our perseverance.
But godliness can just be religiosity if our godliness is not securely based on the God of the Bible.
So we need to add brotherly kindness and love, because if we do not love, we don't know God because God is love.
We need to possess these qualities, and continue to grow in them and this will result in us being effective and productive in our knowledge of Jesus Christ.

This one passage explains everything that we need in order to continue on the good works that we can do to grow in grace and become effective and productive believers, and as we do them, we can never fall away.

Oscarr said:

"Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:4-7).

These are excellent instructions from Peter to maintain our walk in the Spirit after we have been saved by grace. A good Puritan Bible teacher says that grace has a declining aspect to it if it is not maintained through renewing our faith in Christ every day. I like that.

So, we start with faith in Christ alone for our salvation.
Then, we add to our faith, goodness. We work towards being a generally good person.
We add to our goodness, knowledge. We do that by reading and understanding the Word of God. But knowledge is not enough, because the demons know more about the Word of God than we do.
We add to our knowledge, self-control. We are always controlled and sensible and what we do. Something I think that Bethel church people need to take notice of. But there are plenty of knowledgeable, self-controlled atheists as well, so we need more.
So we add perseverance. This means that we stand on our faith and endure through better or worse until the end. But ungodly people can be all these things, so we need to add godliness to our perseverance.
But godliness can just be religiosity if our godliness is not securely based on the God of the Bible.
So we need to add brotherly kindness and love, because if we do not love, we don't know God because God is love.
We need to possess these qualities, and continue to grow in them and this will result in us being effective and productive in our knowledge of Jesus Christ.

This one passage explains everything that we need in order to continue on the good works that we can do to grow in grace and become effective and productive believers, and as we do them, we can never fall away.

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True, I will add that the context is found in verse 9

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

So Peter's advice linked well with Hebrews 10. Some pastors call this "Right believing leading to right living". The key is to always start with remembering that Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, then you will get all the rest in increasing quantity and quality.

aiki said:

Philippians 1:6 (NKJV)
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
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Hi Aiki,

You quoted as follows:
<<
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
>>

setst RE: In the context that Paul wrote to the Philippians, Paul is expressing confidence regarding the Philippians based on their faithfulness. God will definitely carry the good work in those who remain faithful to completion. Paul was referring to the Philippians who continued to believe.

How do we know this?...

Consider that the same Paul who wrote this encouragement to the Philippians is the same Paul who wrote regarding himself - in the very same letter to the Philippians - that he himself could only remain confident regarding his own salvation as he himself remained faithful to press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of him...

Philippians 3:12-14 (NIV)
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Paul wrote similarly regarding himself in the following:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (WEB)
24 Don’t you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win. 25 Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

So, as Paul taught, yes God will work in us to will and act to fulfill His good purpose, but only if we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

"Fear" can mean 'reverence' and also 'to be afraid.'
"Trembling" can mean only one thing: to fear as in being afraid.'

No need to fear and tremble if God does it all and your salvation is guaranteed.

So why do we fear and tremble?

In context, we fear and tremble because the Scriptures teach that, although God works in us through His Spirit that we receive by faith, we are still responsible, by faith, to walk by that Spirit in us to receive life. That is why we must fear and tremble.

Paul, speaking to Christians who already have the Spirit living in them...

Romans 8:8 (WEB) 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those

• who are in Christ Jesus,
• who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived:
God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

Aiki quotes as follows:
<<
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
>>

setst RE:
Paul is expressing a wish and desire for them, like as if I were to say to you:

"May God grant you peace as long as you live."

That wish does not negate your responsibility to live faithfully before God for you to receive God's continued peace.

In context, the same Paul who wrote the verses you quoted also wrote just one chapter earlier in the same letter to the Thessalonians, that although it was God's will that they should be sanctified, it was still the responsibility of the Thessalonians to avoid all sin, and to live a holy life before God, to remain sanctified by God...

1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that YOU should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of YOU should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.
The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told YOU and warned YOU before.
7 For God did not call US to be impure, but to live a holy life.
8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Therefore we are to walk by the Spirit that God gave us to remain sanctified before God

Aiki quotes as follows:
<<
Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
>>

setst RE: God only chooses those who believe and remain faithful to the end, just as Paul taught in the same verses you quoted...

"4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before Him in love"

God chose us to remain holy and without blame. If we remain so, then these are the ones God has chosen to live with Him from the foundation of the world.

If you disagree with the clear teaching here, keep in mind that the same Paul who wrote the verses you quoted also wrote, in the very same letter to the Ephesians, a command to the Ephesians that they are to remain free of sin or they would receive no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Paul continued by warning the Ephesians that if they thought this warning was not for them, that they should not be deceived with empty words of others.

Here are those verses in the very same letter to the Ephesians...

Ephesians 5 (NIV)
5 1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among YOU there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this YOU can be sure:

• No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• 6 Let no one deceive YOU with empty words,
• for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
• 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Therefore, for us to rest in the assurance of God's promises to continue His work in US to the day of Salvation, then we must remain faithful demonstrated by walking in the Spirit God gave us, living holy lives onto God until the end.

Acts 3:26 World English Bible (WEB)
26 God, having raised up his servant Jesus, sent him to you first to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your wickedness.”

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

No guarantees UNLESS you remain faithful...

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

LoveGodsWord said:

Thanks brother and to JESUS for helping you in sharing these scriptures with us. You remind me of another brother I have somewhere in the South Pacific. Thanks for sharing brother.

God bless.

Click to expand...

You are welcome Brother

Keep up the good work while it is still day. Let us continue to shine the light of God's Word, that lost sheep may find their way to their True Shepherd and Lord of their lives. Salvation is in Christ alone by faith in Him.

Once the Day of Grace is over, and the Lord shuts to door, there is no second chance to reach those who are lost. All those who have not believed will be cut off from the Kingdom of God forever.

For those reading this post that are unsure about their salvation, or whether they have the faith God requires for him to grant you His free gift of eternal life, consider the following two prayers...

I see two types of professing Christians who claim to be saved, and the hypothetical prayers they offer. Can you guess which one's prayer is answered by God with Salvation?

The prayer of one who who's faith is the kind most popular in Christianity today...

“Yes, Lord God, I believe in Jesus and the Gospel. I believe in the blood of Jesus that cleanses me from all my sins. Lord I thank you that my faithful obedience to You is not essential, because that would be a work. Praise God. Because I know that even my faith to believe in Jesus is completely Your gift and work in me. I thank you God for selecting me for salvation among that mass of humanity that you are pleased to condemn. I know that as a believer, I am blessed by You to continue to gain all the blessings this life on earth offers me as long as I don't hurt anyone purposely. God, You blessed me. So, yes, I know I am a sinner, but I know you, God, love me anyway. And because you love me so much, I will show You how much I appreciate You for saving me by doing at least some good works – ‘fruits.’ That is the love of the Spirit you gave me, God. Surely, Lord, you see my faith as your work alone. I believe Jesus died for my sins, because at least you are bearing some fruits of the faith You are working out in me. And isn’t that the real proof of my election onto salvation? I know that obeying Jesus Christ is not essential for my salvation because that would be works by my own effort. So obedience is optional. I know the Lord will save me because I am trusting Him to do all the work for me. So I know that by believing in Jesus as my savior that God guarantees my faith to the end, and guarantees my salvation. Praise God!

The one who lives by a Bible faith says in his heart;
“Yes Lord, I heard your invitation – the Gospel. I have counted the cost – my entire life, which is to repent - to commit to deny myself to the life of slavery sin, to take up my cross of tribulation, trials and temptations, and follow you into a new life of love and obedience to you as my true Lord. This is my true and proper worship that I will gladly give to you oh Lord with your help by your Spirit. I know that I can only follow one master. With your help by the Spirit you cause to dwell in those who truly believe in Jesus as Lord I daily walk in your Spirit, crucifying my life as a slave of the sinful nature that bound me to obedience to selfish ambition, and now devote my entire life to You into a life of Love, just as you devote your entire life to me. My life is now yours – to listen to and follow You into a New Life of Love, living by Your Spirit who empowers me every day of my life as I continue in the faith expressed in obedience to you with my entire life - For You are Worthy of my Love and Faith and I bow to you Oh Lord for saving me by faith. I deny myself and follow you as my rightful Lord. Thank you Lord for freeing me from sins control over me so that I may serve the Living God with a whole heart as I walk by the Spirit of God, and that I now have the hope of eternal life in your Kingdom of Light as I remain faithful to You.”

As you contemplate these two types of professing ‘Christians,’ consider how Jesus explains a true Gospel faith in the following teaches of the Gospel:

Luke 14:27-35
27 Whoever doesn’t bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple. 34 Salt is good, but if the salt becomes flat and tasteless, with what do you season it? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB)
23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

Matthew 13:44-46 (WEB) 44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Revelation 20:10 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3:11 (NIV) Bolding mine… 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The Apostle Paul described a true faith as follows:

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

And the proper worship of any one who claims faith in Christ must do likewise...

Romans 12:1 (NIV) Bolding mine… 1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God — this is your true and proper worship.

1 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging YOU to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (NIV)
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result YOU will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

setst777 said:

Hi Aiki,

You quoted as follows:
<<
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
>>

setst RE: In the context that Paul wrote to the Philippians, Paul is expressing confidence regarding the Philippians based on their faithfulness.

Click to expand...

Who takes responsibility for the Philippian Christians' "good work," or salvation, in Philippians 1:6? God. Paul doesn't say anything about the faithfulness of the Christians at Philippi in the verse, he only writes that God will carry to completion the work He began in them.

setst777 said:

Paul was referring to the Philippians who continued to believe.

How do we know this?...

Consider that the same Paul who wrote this encouragement to the Philippians is the same Paul who wrote regarding himself - in the very same letter to the Philippians - that he himself could only remain confident regarding his own salvation as he himself remained faithful to press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of him...

Click to expand...

So, where does Paul actually say in his letter to the Philippians that God will bring to completion the work He began in the Philippians ONLY if they remain faithful to Him?

setst777 said:

Philippians 3:12-14 (NIV)
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

Well, where in this passage does Paul actually say that he "could only remain confident regarding his own salvation as he remained faithful to press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of him"? Where in Philippians 3:12-14 is this wording present? He never uses the phrase "confident regarding my own salvation" nor the phrase "faithful to press on." He describes what he is doing as a follower of Christ (press on to take hold, forgetting what is behind, straining toward what is ahead, press toward the goal), and to what end (to win the prize), but where in the passage does he say anything about his own faithfulness, or his salvation being contingent upon his pressing on?

setst777 said:

Paul wrote similarly regarding himself in the following:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (WEB)
24 Don’t you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win. 25 Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Click to expand...

I much prefer the NKJV:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (NKJV)
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

And what would Paul have demonstrated if, despite all of his preaching, he acted in an undisciplined way, failing to restrain the impulses of his body, his flesh? Well, obviously, that he was not truly saved. And not being truly saved, he would necessarily be "disqualified."

I have heard the Gospel preached from the lips of those who did not truly know God. It is not enough merely to know the Gospel and to preach it to others. As Paul points out here, one's salvation is evidenced in what one does, not just in what one says.

setst777 said:

So, as Paul taught, yes God will work in us to will and act to fulfill His good purpose, but only if we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Click to expand...

Where is this stated in Philippians 1:6? Where is this stated in Philippians 3:12-14? Where is this stated in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27? No where.

setst777 said:

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

"Fear" can mean 'reverence' and also 'to be afraid.'
"Trembling" can mean only one thing: to fear as in being afraid.'

No need to fear and tremble if God does it all and your salvation is guaranteed.

Click to expand...

"Trembling can mean only one thing: to fear as in being afraid"? Uh, no. People may tremble for a variety of reasons: They may tremble in excitement; they may tremble from being chilled; they may tremble in sorrow; they may tremble in rage. So, no, "trembling" does not mean only "to fear as in being afraid." Are you really thinking things through carefully? It doesn't seem like it...

In context, if the "fear" is reverential awe - which I think it is - it would stand to reason that the "trembling" is a product, not of craven fear of harm, but of being awestruck.

So, you're right: there is no need to "fear and tremble" in craven fear of salvation lost if one's salvation is guaranteed (which Philippians 1:6 tells us it is). And this is confirmed by Paul's explanation in Philippians 2:13 that all that a Christian is to work out has already been worked into them by God who has shaped their desires and enabled the doing of His will.

setst777 said:

So why do we fear and tremble?

In context, we fear and tremble because the Scriptures teach that, although God works in us through His Spirit that we receive by faith, we are still responsible, by faith, to walk by that Spirit in us to receive life. That is why we must fear and tremble.

Click to expand...

And where is any of this plainly stated in Philippians 2:12-13? Where is this plainly stated in Philippians 1:6? Where in these verses does Paul caveat his words as you do here? No where.

setst777 said:

Paul, speaking to Christians who already have the Spirit living in them...

Romans 8:8 (WEB) 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those

• who are in Christ Jesus,
• who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Click to expand...

Actually, the ending of Romans 8:1 - which you mistakenly cite as Romans 8:8 - does not actually have the ending "who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." This part of the verse does not appear in any of the primary Greek manuscripts of the New Testament which is why, of the more than fifty English versions of the Bible, fully three-quarters of them do not include it.

In any case, Romans 8:1 doesn't issue a command, but describes a kind of person - the sort of person who is not under condemnation. If I say, "There are no seats left in the theater except for those reserved for people who are disabled," am I indicating that a person should make themselves disabled so they can use the reserved seats? Of course not. I'm merely describing the type of person for whom the seats are reserved. This is what Paul is doing in Romans 8:1. He is merely describing the type of person who is not under condemnation.

setst777 said:

Aiki quotes as follows:
<<
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
>>

setst RE:
Paul is expressing a wish and desire for them, like as if I were to say to you:

"May God grant you peace as long as you live."

That wish does not negate your responsibility to live faithfully before God for you to receive God's continued peace.

Click to expand...

What does the verse say? You are mostly telling me what it doesn't say here, but not acknowledging what it does say, which is that God is faithful who will sanctify completely the believer and preserve blameless their entire person - spirit, soul and body unto the return of Christ. But, if God has taken it upon Himself to fully sanctify every believer, they need not fear for their salvation.

setst777 said:

In context, the same Paul who wrote the verses you quoted also wrote just one chapter earlier in the same letter to the Thessalonians, that although it was God's will that they should be sanctified, it was still the responsibility of the Thessalonians to avoid all sin, and to live a holy life before God, to remain sanctified by God...

Click to expand...

So, now you're no longer talking about the passage I cited but another one entirely. I guess that makes sense since the verses I cited thoroughly defeat a saved-and-lost/works salvation belief.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (NKJV)
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you don't realize that positionally in Christ, every believer has been - past tense - already fully sanctified, which is why God accepts them.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NKJV)
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Note that Paul writes "are sanctified" not "are being sanctified," or "will eventually be sanctified."

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NKJV)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Same here. Paul says the Corinthian believers "were sanctified," not "would be sanctified." In God's eyes, His children are sanctified already by their being in Christ. And this is why a Christian does not need to rely on his success in living in a sanctified way in order to be accepted by God.

Hebrews 10:14 (NKJV)
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The writer of Hebrews indicates here that there is a positional sanctification in Christ that is complete (perfected forever) and a sanctification of condition, of daily experience, that is in the process of being worked out in the Christian's life. It is because the former sanctification exists that the latter sanctification can develop over time and the believer still be accepted by God. God's standard is perfection, even in regards to our sanctification. He would not tolerate our sanctification being progressive if we weren't already fully sanctified in Christ. And because our sanctification is complete in Christ, we don't have to fear for our salvation if the sanctification of our condition isn't what it should be.

setst777 said:

Aiki quotes as follows:
<<
Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
>>

setst RE: God only chooses those who believe and remain faithful to the end, just as Paul taught in the same verses you quoted...

Click to expand...

??? Where does Paul say this in the passage above from Ephesians 1? Paul wrote that God chose us, not we, Him from before the world existed to be holy and without blame before Him. This was accomplished by Christ, not by our good works. Paul also explained that our acceptance with God is based in our union with Christ. We are "accepted in the Beloved" and only because of the Beloved. God accepts us on no other basis - certainly not on the basis of our works. And, since our acceptance is Christ-contingent, not us-contingent, and God always accepts Christ, our acceptance with God is also constant and permanent.

setst777 said:

"4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before Him in love"

God chose us to remain holy and without blame. If we remain so, then these are the ones God has chosen to live with Him from the foundation of the world.

Click to expand...

Where is this stated in the verse? Where in the verse does it say, "if we remain so"? No where.

setst777 said:

Ephesians 5 (NIV)
5 1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among YOU there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this YOU can be sure:

• No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• 6 Let no one deceive YOU with empty words,
• for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
• 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Therefore, for us to rest in the assurance of God's promises to continue His work in US to the day of Salvation, then we must remain faithful demonstrated by walking in the Spirit God gave us, living holy lives onto God until the end.

Click to expand...

Again, you've had to resort to another passage entirely to scrape up ground for your view. That should tell you something about the bankruptcy of your view. It certainly does me.

Here's the passage in a more clear format:

Ephesians 5:5-8 (NKJV)
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

It is important to note how Paul phrases things in this passage, most particularly in verse 7. He uses the pronoun "them" in the verse and in doing so distinguishes the Ephesian Christians to whom he was writing from the "sons of disobedience" he had been describing. He does not suggest that the Ephesians were acting like "sons of disobedience" and so had better fear for their salvation, but simply warns them to avoid contact with such people. The Ephesian believers are "children of light" and ought to have no fellowship with the darkness. There is no threat here of lost-salvation, nor a teaching that works are vital to maintaining one's salvation, only the advice to steer clear of the company of people not of the light. Certainly, no where in the verses does Paul write anything like, "for us to rest in the assurance of God's promises to continue His work in US to the day of Salvation, then we must remain faithful."

setst777 said:

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

No guarantees UNLESS you remain faithful...

Click to expand...

You tried using this passage before in this slippery way but it didn't work then and it won't work now. The verse doesn't actually read as you have it here.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

There is no "must" in this verse. And this is why upwards of 90% of all English versions of the Bible do not translate the verse with a "must" in it. This changes the tenor of the verse significantly. Instead of demanding as necessary the believer's departure from iniquity, the verse only commands it. There is no implicit threat in the verse if there is no "must" in it. There is only an "ought" where you would insinuate an "or else."

aiki said:

Who takes responsibility for the Philippian Christians' "good work," or salvation, in Philippians 1:6? God. Paul doesn't say anything about the faithfulness of the Christians at Philippi in the verse, he only writes that God will carry to completion the work He began in them.

So, where does Paul actually say in his letter to the Philippians that God will bring to completion the work He began in the Philippians ONLY if they remain faithful to Him?

Well, where in this passage does Paul actually say that he "could only remain confident regarding his own salvation as he remained faithful to press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of him"? Where in Philippians 3:12-14 is this wording present? He never uses the phrase "confident regarding my own salvation" nor the phrase "faithful to press on." He describes what he is doing as a follower of Christ (press on to take hold, forgetting what is behind, straining toward what is ahead, press toward the goal), and to what end (to win the prize), but where in the passage does he say anything about his own faithfulness, or his salvation being contingent upon his pressing on?

I much prefer the NKJV:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (NKJV)
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

And what would Paul have demonstrated if, despite all of his preaching, he acted in an undisciplined way, failing to restrain the impulses of his body, his flesh? Well, obviously, that he was not truly saved. And not being truly saved, he would necessarily be "disqualified."

I have heard the Gospel preached from the lips of those who did not truly know God. It is not enough merely to know the Gospel and to preach it to others. As Paul points out here, one's salvation is evidenced in what one does, not just in what one says.

Where is this stated in Philippians 1:6? Where is this stated in Philippians 3:12-14? Where is this stated in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27? No where.

"Trembling can mean only one thing: to fear as in being afraid"? Uh, no. People may tremble for a variety of reasons: They may tremble in excitement; they may tremble from being chilled; they may tremble in sorrow; they may tremble in rage. So, no, "trembling" does not mean only "to fear as in being afraid." Are you really thinking things through carefully? It doesn't seem like it...

In context, if the "fear" is reverential awe - which I think it is - it would stand to reason that the "trembling" is a product, not of craven fear of harm, but of being awestruck.

So, you're right: there is no need to "fear and tremble" in craven fear of salvation lost if one's salvation is guaranteed (which Philippians 1:6 tells us it is). And this is confirmed by Paul's explanation in Philippians 2:13 that all that a Christian is to work out has already been worked into them by God who has shaped their desires and enabled the doing of His will.

And where is any of this plainly stated in Philippians 2:12-13? Where is this plainly stated in Philippians 1:6? Where in these verses does Paul caveat his words as you do here? No where.

Actually, the ending of Romans 8:1 - which you mistakenly cite as Romans 8:8 - does not actually have the ending "who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." This part of the verse does not appear in any of the primary Greek manuscripts of the New Testament which is why, of the more than fifty English versions of the Bible, fully three-quarters of them do not include it.

In any case, Romans 8:1 doesn't issue a command, but describes a kind of person - the sort of person who is not under condemnation. If I say, "There are no seats left in the theater except for those reserved for people who are disabled," am I indicating that a person should make themselves disabled so they can use the reserved seats? Of course not. I'm merely describing the type of person for whom the seats are reserved. This is what Paul is doing in Romans 8:1. He is merely describing the type of person who is not under condemnation.

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Hi Aiki,

You can cry and stamp your feet if you like, but that does not change the Gospel. And the Gospel declares that everything we have in Christ comes through faith in Jesus.

The Sovereign God chooses to grant His gift of saving grace to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and remain faithful to the end. That is how God chooses to carry out His will regarding our salvation. I will not argue with God.

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Free Gift of Grace Paid for by Christ. . .

This free gift of God's grace onto salvation is received and kept by a genuine faith. And this saving grace is only possible because Christ paid for it on the cross for us.