GodLovesCats

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Does it make a difference whether the father and mother are legally married?

The Bible is clear that having sex outside of wedlock is immoral, so even if the government allows it none of us should do it.
 
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Dale

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The states putting forth the heartbeat laws are reasoning both legally and scientifically. It is biological fact we are human beings at conception.

The 14th Amendment says no person is to be deprived of life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness. Alabama by plebiscite passed a state constitutional amendment deeming unborn life at any stage is a person. They then passed another state constitutional amendment outlawing all abortions except in the cases of endangering the woman’s life.

These are all based on settled science and laws protecting the life and liberty of all, not just US citizens.


Redleghunter in post #13: "It is biological fact we are human beings at conception."


No, it isn't. Apparently this is a common misconception. When scientific magazines do editorialize on when personhood begins, they have always taken the view that it begins much later than conception, in my experience.

Take a look at these quotes from a talk by Scott Gilbert, an eminent professor of biology, from the website of Swarthmore College.


<< I really can't tell you when personhood begins, but I can say with absolute certainty that there's no consensus among scientists. Some scientists will say it begins at fertilization, where the zygote gets a new genome, where the sperm and egg combine, their nuclear materials, which actually is a long process ending with a two cell stage. Some scientists will say it's at implantation, where you get a pregnancy. Other scientists will say it's at day 14, gastrulation, where the embryo becomes an individual, where you can no longer form twins and triplets, so that you have one embryo giving rise to, at best, only one adult. Some scientists will say it's at week 24 to 28 when you see the beginnings of the human specific electroencephalogram, and saying if we're willing to say that death is the loss of the EEG, perhaps personhood is the acquisition of the EEG. Still others say it's at birth or during the perinatal period where a successful birth is possible. >>

<< ... Michael Sandel when he was brought before the President's Commission on Bioethics said, "If the embryo lost that accompanies natural procreation were the moral equivalent of infant death," in other words, if the zygote is a person, "then pregnancy would have to be regarded as a public health crisis of epidemic proportions: Alleviating natural embryo loss would be a more urgent moral cause than abortion, in vitro fertilization, and stem cell research combined." >>

<< Now, Renfree, an embryologist says, "Assuming that monozygotic twins have separate souls," okay. He's going to that notion of ensoulment now. "Assuming that monozygotic twins have separate souls, it follows that ensoulment, whatever it must be, must occur after cleavage, at least 12 days after conception." >>

Finally,

<< ... the parable of the man walking into a burning clinic and sees on the clinic floor a young woman and a canister, and the canister says "1000 embryos", which do you rescue? Who do you rescue? This is basically the question, do you really think that a zygote or blastocyst is the equivalent of a human person? >>


Source:
When Does Personhood Begin?
 
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Dale

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Is that really what happened? I'm reading wikipedia on Roe, and Blackmun based the decision on a "right to privacy" founded in the 14th or 9th Amendments, and the rejection of personhood at conception.

BTW, I believe the best way to approach this is "all of the above" - the emotional appeal has its place, as does objective reasoning in the theological and legal realms.


I have read Roe v. Wade, as most of the people with strong opinions about it have not.


I can see that people would assume that Roe v. Wade rejects the personhood of the fetus, but that actually isn't what it says.

Writing for the Court, on the subject of personhood, Justice Harry Blackmun said;

"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins.
When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine,
philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the
judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is
not in a position to speculate as to the answer."

This is in section IX of the R v W decision.


On the subject of personhood, in R v W, Blackmun simply waffles.
 
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Dale

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Is that really what happened? I'm reading wikipedia on Roe, and Blackmun based the decision on a "right to privacy" founded in the 14th or 9th Amendments, and the rejection of personhood at conception.

BTW, I believe the best way to approach this is "all of the above" - the emotional appeal has its place, as does objective reasoning in the theological and legal realms.


Any parts of the Constitution cited in favor of Roe v. Wade are simply excuses, for the Constitution sheds no light on the issue. The word "privacy" doesn't appear in the Constitution, it doesn't appear in the 14th Amendment, or the 9th Amendment. There is obviously no mention of abortion, or of pregnancy.

The 14th Amendment is one of a series of Amendments passed in the aftermath of the Civil War. It has nothing to do with marriage, family or privacy.

As Justice Rehnquist pointed out in 1973, when the 14th Amendment was ratified, 33 states and territories had laws restricting abortion. The men who wrote the 14th Amendment did not intend to invalidate existing laws on abortion. When Congress voted to send the Amendment to the states, the Representatives and Senators who voted for it did not intend to invalidate existing laws on abortion. When the state legislatures ratified the 14th Amendment, they did not intend to invalidate existing laws on abortion. No one at the time had any notion of amending the Constitution to throw out existing laws restricting abortion. No one expected the 14th Amendment to do so.


The Ninth Amendment, although part of the Bill of Rights, is a somewhat controversial part of the Constitution.


Amendment 9
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



Scholars have not only disagreed about what this means, many have been baffled. Does it mean anything? When is it intended to have an effect?


One thing is clear about the Ninth Amendment: It is intended to limit the power of the Federal government. When Harry Blackmun and the Supreme Court cited the Ninth Amendment to justify Roe v. Wade, they did the opposite. The Court used the Ninth Amendment to justify a sweeping expansion of Federal activity, a inserting a powerful Federal presence into the law of marriage and family, which had been left to the states. Instead of limiting the power of the Federal government, the Court used it to vastly expand the power of the Federal courts.
 
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hedrick

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Redleghunter in post #13: "It is biological fact we are human beings at conception."

No, it isn't. Apparently this is a common misconception.
People are quoting statements from textbooks out of context, and turning description into theology. As a matter of description, the fertilized egg is human (as is the unfertilized egg and sperm), and has the DNA that the child will have. But that doesn't answer the question of when they become human beings.
 
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hedrick

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One thing is clear about the Ninth Amendment: It is intended to limit the power of the Federal government. When Harry Blackmun and the Supreme Court cited the Ninth Amendment to justify Roe v. Wade, they did the opposite. The Court used the Ninth Amendment to justify a sweeping expansion of Federal activity, a inserting a powerful Federal presence into the law of marriage and family, which had been left to the states. Instead of limiting the power of the Federal government, the Court used it to vastly expand the power of the Federal courts.
Quite the contrary. Under our system, neither states nor the Federal government are permitted to make laws just because someone has an opinion. Laws are required to be in aid of legitimate government purposes. Roe v Wade says that enforcing a philosophical position on which there's no agreement is not a legitimate government purpose. (Indeed today 60% of the population disagrees with the principle behind anti-abortion laws.) We don't want states to infringe our liberties any more than the Federal government. If states attempt to do so, the Federal courts get involved. That's (one part of) their job, and is certainly not an expansion. I know anti-abortion folks feel strongly about this, but in fact they're trying to enforce a minority viewpoint on everyone. Repeated assertion that human life begins at conception doesn't make it an agreed-upon principle that can be used in laws.
 
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GodLovesCats

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The Bill of Rights does give us the fundamental right to privacy . . . in criminal investigations and trials. A pregnant rape victim has no obligation to disclose what was said during a doctor appointment under oath. Police are not allowed to search a rapist's bedroom and take stuff away from him without a warrant. IOW, privacy is in the Bill of Rights, but Harry Blackmun got the amendment number wrong.
 
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Arcangl86

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The Bill of Rights does give us the fundamental right to privacy . . . in criminal investigations and trials. A pregnant rape victim has no obligation to disclose what was said during a doctor appointment under oath. Police are not allowed to search a rapist's bedroom and take stuff away from him without a warrant. IOW, privacy is in the Bill of Rights, but Harry Blackmun got the amendment number wrong.
Not really, because the Bill of Rights only applies to the federal government. The Due Process Clause in both the 5th and 14th Amendments are applied more or less identically, but they limit different sovereigns.
 
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Mel333

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Me1333: "... yes, a man should have a right too but then the child is in the woman so legally, it's up to her and if she had security from a male or family would most likely keep it."

Does it make a difference whether the father and mother are legally married? One of the weird things about Roe v. Wade is that it treats a married man, who is living with his wife and paying the bills, the same as any teenage boy who gets his girlfriend pregnant. In Roe v. Wade, a married man has no rights, zero, zilch, nothing. He has no right to be consulted, no right to be informed before the abortion has been performed, no right to be informed after the abortion has been performed. If his wife has the child, he has to raise it, of course.


It's hard to believe that pro-lifers couldn't make an issue out of this if they wanted to. They apparently don't want to, and I don't know why.

I'd love it if a man had a right choose too! The case is weird. Thanks for elaborating. :)

Married men should have a legal right as well. Biblically he is the head of the household and should be able to veto it since the woman is his body lol.

I think this is one of those debates that never ends because there can't be perfect justice or freedom.

There is going to be suffering in the world. To prevent it in one area creates a new area of suffering.

Freedom with limitations and justice to the extent of how far one can advocate innocence.

In this case, I find the case for innocence of an unborn child innocent as one could ever be. However, to prevent it from being harmed creates new areas of new people who are innocent. Like rape victims etc.

Innocent rape victim has to be forced to have innocent child or innocent rape victim aborts innocent child and is found guilty of murder in Alabama.

Or the married man who couldn't have a say in the abortion itself. Or that his wife ends up on death row because she aborted a child without letting him know about it.

So here we have an issue of innocence at the expense of another's innocence and freedom of choice I'd say might not exist.

One is only made a criminal if judged according to the law.
More laws to judge one by, takes away man's free-will to choose to do the right thing. That is not to kill your babies and do the right thing by the moral law and walk in grace the rest of it.
 
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Dale

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I don't see you trying to fight so I will answer sweetly. It is true that a lot of pro-lifers use religious arguments only but the ones who try to take more into action use both biological and philosophical ideas. We wouldn't need to get into philosophy if people would accept that the unborn from the moment of conception but instead we get always excuses that the unborn is "a non-person, parasite, an organ and other nonsense", you even said the unborn has a heartbeat like other forms of life. A lot of people are interested in making pro-life bills so that they can be challenged in the Supreme Court.

Also the unborn is still a human even in case of rape and incest, and abortion won't make the situation disappear but creates more victims.


David Cabrera: << ... we get always excuses that the unborn is "a non-person, parasite, an organ and other nonsense" >>


You start from the assumption that the idea that the unborn have not achieved personhood is an "excuse." Pro-lifers often repeat the slogan "abortion is murder."

The problem is that the Bible is not so clear on that subject. Here are three ways of stating the pro-life position that we might look for in the Bible.

"Thou shalt not abort."
"Abortion is murder."
"A baby is a person from the moment of conception."

Yet none of these statements, or any equivalent, are in the Bible. I cannot find the pro-life position stated clearly in the Bible. What is absolutely clear is that the Bible condemns adultery. The Bible prohibits premarital and extramarital sex. Jesus condemned adultery in the Sermon on the Mount.

What is the effect of Roe v. Wade and the pro-choice movement? It is clear that abortion on demand encourages premarital sex and possibly extramarital sex. In particular, it encourages teenagers to have sex with no thought of consequences.

Why can't Christians who oppose abortion say that abortion on demand is wrong because it encourages sexual immorality? It makes perfect sense but I haven't heard a pro-lifer say this.
 
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Dale

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You're current constitution gives you the right to choose whether or not to bear a child.
Which is the oldest law there is known to man. Free-will.

Again, you should do what is morally right (keep the baby) but you cannot force a woman to have a child.

To make abortion illegal would mean you'd have to criminalise it and there would be young women in jail with the death penalty. You also will need to change the definition of murder which means malice and miscarriages would need to be proven.

and yes, a man should have a right too but then the child is in the woman so legally, it's up to her and if she had security from a male or family would most likely keep it.


Me1333: "To make abortion illegal would mean you'd have to criminalise it and there would be young women in jail with the death penalty."

This is not true at all. I have never heard of a country with the death penalty for abortion. Abortion was illegal almost everywhere until the 1960's but the penalties were much less serious than that. In the US, in the 19th century, a number of states abolished all penalties for the woman having an abortion in the hope that it would encourage her to testify against the doctor who performed it.
 
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hedrick

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Me1333: "To make abortion illegal would mean you'd have to criminalise it and there would be young women in jail with the death penalty."

This is not true at all. I have never heard of a country with the death penalty for abortion. Abortion was illegal almost everywhere until the 1960's but the penalties were much less serious than that. In the US, in the 19th century, a number of states abolished all penalties for the woman having an abortion in the hope that it would encourage her to testify against the doctor who performed it.
Today most abortions in Europe are medical. If abortions are made illegal, the most likely result will be women getting the appropriate pills illegally. You can try to identify and prosecute organized crime, but that's no been very successful with other drugs. To have a real effect you'll need to prosecute women. State laws vary. One Georgia prosecutor has warned that women could be prosecuted under their law: DA Warns Women They Can Be Charged With Murder Under New Abortion Law | Daily Report. It probably wasn't the intent, but the law does seem to have that implication.

Making abortion illegal isn't all that's going on. There are also laws declaring a fetus a full person. Once you treat a fetus as a full human, anything less than ideal behavior becomes endangering a child, and unless there's an explicit exception, abortion becomes criminal for the woman under normal murder laws. Women have already been prosecuted for taking drugs while pregnant. There are also cases where miscarriages have been at least investigated. (I haven't check to see how far it went.) In that respect the new laws are stricter than pre-Rowe laws.
 
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Mel333

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Me1333: "To make abortion illegal would mean you'd have to criminalise it and there would be young women in jail with the death penalty."

This is not true at all. I have never heard of a country with the death penalty for abortion. Abortion was illegal almost everywhere until the 1960's but the penalties were much less serious than that. In the US, in the 19th century, a number of states abolished all penalties for the woman having an abortion in the hope that it would encourage her to testify against the doctor who performed it.

Does Alabama have the death penalty?
I think they've just criminalised abortions including ones who have been raped & incest.

It's a really tough debate. One that has no end to it.
 
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GodLovesCats

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What is the effect of Roe v. Wade and the pro-choice movement? It is clear that abortion on demand encourages premarital sex and possibly extramarital sex. In particular, it encourages teenagers to have sex with no thought of consequences.

Why can't Christians who oppose abortion say that abortion on demand is wrong because it encourages sexual immorality? It makes perfect sense but I haven't heard a pro-lifer say this.

I have no statistics about this, but the number of abortions skyrocketed after Roe vs. Wade. Women were like, "Great, abortion is legal now, so let's do it." That makes perfect sense. But (please don't change this thread's topic) when this happened after homosexual marriages became legal, the first to do it were gays and lesbians who had already been living together, in civial unions if possible. I don't think the increase in abortions suddenly happened as a result of more premarital sex but because many women were pregnant already.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Does Alabama have the death penalty?
I think they've just criminalised abortions including ones who have been raped & incest.

It's a really tough debate. One that has no end to it.

Life in prison for doctors who do abortions unless it is for a medical reascon.
 
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Arcangl86

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I have no statistics about this, but the number of abortions skyrocketed after Roe vs. Wade. Women were like, "Great, abortion is legal now, so let's do it." That makes perfect sense. But (please don't change this thread's topic) when this happened after homosexual marriages became legal, the first to do it were gays and lesbians who had already been living together, in civial unions if possible. I don't think the increase in abortions suddenly happened as a result of more premarital sex but because many women were pregnant already.
Did they actually skyrocket, or did we just know about them now because people were no longer hiding them?
 
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GodLovesCats

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Did they actually skyrocket, or did we just know about them now because people were no longer hiding them?

Hiding a pregnancy is pretty difficult after an embryo becomes a fetus unless the woman was already fat. I would expect people to notice if a woman was pregnant one week and not the next if she gets it done in the second trimester.
 
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hedrick

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Hiding a pregnancy is pretty difficult after an embryo becomes a fetus unless the woman was already fat. I would expect people to notice if a woman was pregnant one week and not the next if she gets it done in the second trimester.
That doesn't mean they would report it to whoever keeps the statistics. However there are lots of clever approaches that can be used, particularly since abortion was legal in some states. That can provide a baseline.
 
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GodLovesCats

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That doesn't mean they would report it to whoever keeps the statistics. However there are lots of clever approaches that can be used, particularly since abortion was legal in some states. That can provide a baseline.

Who is responsible for reporting it?
 
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