Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Gr8Grace · May 21, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
It's simple. And no one has to "convince themself" of anything.

Agreed. John 10:28....simple, straight forward, plain. We have eternal life and will not perish. PERIOD.

But in a sense we do have to convince ourselves. As FREEWILL creatures, we are commanded to grow in His Grace and knowledge. Find our right pastor teacher......who HAS the gift and teaches the TRUTH.

But, since we have so many believers who follow traditions and terrible, I mean TERRIBLE interpretations and world views.......We have believers using a metaphor of a 'burned vine or branch' to trump the very clear words of Jesus Christ........I give them eternal life and they will NEVER perish.

The Lord Jesus Christ~~I give them eternal life and they will NEVER perish.Positively, clearly and absolutely no loss of salvation. :amen:

The believer who does not grow in His Grace and knowledge........a branch burning means loss of salvation :sick:

.

FreeGrace2 · May 22, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Agreed. John 10:28....simple, straight forward, plain. We have eternal life and will not perish. PERIOD.

But in a sense we do have to convince ourselves. As FREEWILL creatures, we are commanded to grow in His Grace and knowledge. Find our right pastor teacher......who HAS the gift and teaches the TRUTH.

But, since we have so many believers who follow traditions and terrible, I mean TERRIBLE interpretations and world views.......We have believers using a metaphor of a 'burned vine or branch' to trump the very clear words of Jesus Christ........I give them eternal life and they will NEVER perish.

The Lord Jesus Christ~~I give them eternal life and they will NEVER perish.Positively, clearly and absolutely no loss of salvation.

The believer who does not grow in His Grace and knowledge........a branch burning means loss of salvation.

Sad but true.

JLB777 · May 26, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Agreed. John 10:28....simple, straight forward, plain. We have eternal life and will not perish. PERIOD.

If you remain “in Christ”.

Here’s how we are instructed from the scriptures to remain “in Christ”.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

Gr8Grace · May 27, 2019

JLB777 said:
If you remain “in Christ”.

Here’s how we are instructed from the scriptures to remain “in Christ”.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

I see you still have a world view of "abide" and Being "In Christ." And a world view of the simple straight forward words of Christ in John 10:28

Many believers who are in Christ, don't abide in Him.

Perfect example~~Believers who think "abide in Christ"(fellowship) is the same thing as being "in the body of Christ" (saved.)...............They are in Christ, but sure haven't had much fellowship or abiding time with Him.

See JLB, this is why you question eternal security John 10:28,John 5:24...............You don't abide in Him(believe His word to you) so you question and don't KNOW that He eternally seal's and indwells you.

JLB777 · May 27, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
I see you still have a world view of "abide" and Being "In Christ."

Yes, it comes from the scriptures.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Just as Jesus illustrated, the branch that does not remain in the Vine, which is the source of life for it, will wither, and is gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

Can a branch live, that becomes disconnected from the vine?

JLB

FreeGrace2 · May 28, 2019

Gr8Grace said: ↑
I see you still have a world view of "abide" and Being "In Christ."

JLB777 said:
Yes, it comes from the scriptures.

You severely misunderstand the difference between "world view" which is satanic, and "biblical view". And Gr8Grace is correct about your view. It is a world view, not a biblical view.

TheSeabass · May 28, 2019

Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Yes, salvation is not an unconditional guarantee regardless of what the Christian does, how the Christian lives.

Salvation is a conditional promise (1 John 2:25):

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

BOTH verses are one complete thought and must go together. Verse 28 by itself does not tell us much, we need verse 27 to tell us whom the pronouns "them" and "they" in verse 28 refer to.

To be of the "them" and "they" of verse 28 requires that one CONDTIONALLY CONTINUE (present tense) to "hear" and "follow "Christ per verse 27. One hears and follows Christ by volition and one can by that same volition quit hearing and following Christ (John 6:66-67).

FreeGrace2 · May 28, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Yes, salvation is not an unconditional guarantee regardless of what the Christian does, how the Christian lives.

Jesus' comment about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 is unconditional.

Salvation is a conditional promise (1 John 2:25):

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

BOTH verses are one complete thought and must go together. Verse 28 by itself does not tell us much, we need verse 27 to tell us whom the pronouns "them" and "they" in verse 28 refer to.

Why did you cite 1 John 2:25 but not quote it?

As to your attempt to explain John 10:27,28, we find NO CONDITIONAL statements in v.27, so there is NOTHING in v.27 to indicate or suggest a condition for never perishing.

What is clearly stated by Jesus is that those given eternal life, which occurs AT the MOMENT of believing in Him, per John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13, shall never perish. That is unconditional.

To be of the "them" and "they" of verse 28 requires that one CONDTIONALLY CONTINUE (present tense) to "hear" and "follow "Christ per verse 27.

This is erroneous and an abuse of the Greek present tense. While this tense can refer to action that is presently occurring, such as a football game, this tense IN NO WAY indicates continuous action out into the future.

It also DOES NOT MEAN that the result of the action of the present tense only occurs as long as the action continues, which is your claim.

Please support your claims about the present tense.

One hears and follows Christ by volition and one can by that same volition quit hearing and following Christ (John 6:66-67).

Yes, Jesus made that clear in the parable of the soils in Luke 8:13, where the second soil "believed for a while, but in time of temptation/testing fell away".

But it would be an error to assume Jesus meant that they lost salvation.

John 10:28 is as clear a statement of eternal security as can be made.

Jesus gives eternal life, at the moment of faith in Him, and they shall never perish.

That is exactly what He said.

TheSeabass · May 28, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus' comment about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 is unconditional.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

No it's not unconditional. To be of the "them" and "they" of verse 28 one must conditionally become a sheep of Christ by continuing to hear and follow Him.

Who are "my sheep"? The ones that continually hear and follow, this is a qualifying statement. No such thing exists in the NT of one being a sheep of Christ without hearing and following Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why did you cite 1 John 2:25 but not quote it?

I mentioned the verse for it shows eternal life is a promise.

FreeGrace2 said:
As to your attempt to explain John 10:27,28, we find NO CONDITIONAL statements in v.27, so there is NOTHING in v.27 to indicate or suggest a condition for never perishing.

Again verse 27 has CONDTIONS all over it for no one can be a sheep of Christ without CONDITIONALLY hearing and following Him.

Disciple means a follower of another. How can one be a disciple/sheep of Christ without following Him? How can one be a follower of Christ without following Him?

FreeGrace2 said:
What is clearly stated by Jesus is that those given eternal life, which occurs AT the MOMENT of believing in Him, per John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13, shall never perish. That is unconditional.

Jesus never taught 'belief only saves' but made repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism essential to being saved.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is erroneous and an abuse of the Greek present tense. While this tense can refer to action that is presently occurring, such as a football game, this tense IN NO WAY indicates continuous action out into the future.

It also DOES NOT MEAN that the result of the action of the present tense only occurs as long as the action continues, which is your claim.

Please support your claims about the present tense.

Your attack on the present tense exposes the error of eternal security for you are trying to find a way for one to be a sheep/disciple of Christ WITHOUT one having to conditionally hear and follow Him which is an impossibility. Again, no such thing exists in the NT gospel.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, Jesus made that clear in the parable of the soils in Luke 8:13, where the second soil "believed for a while, but in time of temptation/testing fell away".

But it would be an error to assume Jesus meant that they lost salvation.

Fall away, apostatize means to be lost, unbelief is punished (Revelation 21:8)

I mentioned John 6:66-67 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 - Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

In v66 how could they go back and walk no more if they never did really follow and walk with Him?
Verse 67 the word "also" means in like manner, it was possible Christ's own Apostles could turn and walk with Him no more just as those in v66. IF it were impossible for the Apostles to turn away and follow Christ no more, then Christ's question was implying a lie.
And since the Apostles were in a saved position and could turn and walk no more with Christ then those in v66 could ALSO be in a saved position and turn and follow Christ no more.

FreeGrace2 said:
John 10:28 is as clear a statement of eternal security as can be made.

Jesus gives eternal life, at the moment of faith in Him, and they shall never perish.

That is exactly what He said.

Being of the :them" and "they" of verse 28 means one must CONDITIONALLY continue ti hear and follow Christ. Agai no such thing anywhere in the NT of one being a sheep of Christ without CONDITIONALLY hearing and following Christ.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · May 28, 2019

TheSeabass said:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

No it's not unconditional. To be of the "them" and "they" of verse 28 one must conditionally become a sheep of Christ by continuing to hear and follow Him.

I've already dealt with your erroneous view of the Greek present tense. Where is the evidence for your claims?

Who are "my sheep"? The ones that continually hear and follow, this is a qualifying statement.

Again, your opinion about the Greek present tense is false. Actually, the answer to your question about who are Jesus' sheep is found in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus referred to Himself in metaphor, as a gate for the sheep pen. Those who believe in Him are saved. That's what makes people His sheep. Through faith in Him. That's how they are saved.

btw, the Greek word for "enters" isn't the present tense, but the aorist tense. Same tense that Paul used for 'believe' for the Philippian jailer who asked him what he must do to be saved.

No such thing exists in the NT of one being a sheep of Christ without hearing and following Christ.

Except there is NO CONDITION in John 10:27 that indicates a conditional clause.

It's a policy statement about what His sheep are to do. There is NOTHING about how to become one of His sheep.

I mentioned the verse for it shows eternal life is a promise.

Right. 1 John 2:25 is a promise for those who believe. Just as John 10:28 is a promise for recipients of eternal life, which is given when one believes; that they shall never perish.

Again verse 27 has CONDTIONS all over it for no one can be a sheep of Christ without CONDITIONALLY hearing and following Him.

Aren't you aware of how conditional clauses are stated or worded??

Words such as "if" and "unless" are used.

So, what specific words in John 10:27 communicate the idea of a condition to meet??

Disciple means a follower of another. How can one be a disciple/sheep of Christ without following Him? How can one be a follower of Christ without following Him?

You miss the whole point of Scripture. It's those who have believed that are commanded to follow Him.

Again, v.27 is a policy statement, not a condition to become a sheep of Jesus.

Jesus never taught 'belief only saves' but made repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism essential to being saved.

Here is just how erroneous your comment is.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Your attack on the present tense exposes the error of eternal security for you are trying to find a way for one to be a sheep/disciple of Christ WITHOUT one having to conditionally hear and follow Him which is an impossibility. Again, no such thing exists in the NT gospel.

Again, you completely miss my point. My "attack" is against your FALSE and ERRONEOUS claim about the present tense. You need to obtain a Greek grammar text and learn what the various tenses mean.

Fall away, apostatize means to be lost, unbelief is punished (Revelation 21:8)

When the Bible mentions "unbelief" it always refers to those how NEVER BELIEVED.

I can prove this.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Can you seriously claim that "former believers" "have NOT believed"? Of course you can't.

Once a person believes, they CANNOT be described as "have not believed".

The Bible says it's those who have not believed that will be condemned.

There are NO verses about former believers being condemned.

Being of the :them" and "they" of verse 28 means one must CONDITIONALLY continue ti hear and follow Christ. Agai no such thing anywhere in the NT of one being a sheep of Christ without CONDITIONALLY hearing and following Christ.

I'm tired of your erroneous claims about that which you don't understand.

Here, please review this link on Greek verb tenses:

Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

Also, review this link regarding conditional sentences in the Greek:

Greek Conditional Sentences

May the Holy Spirit guide you into the truth.

TheSeabass · May 28, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I've already dealt with your erroneous view of the Greek present tense. Where is the evidence for your claims?

Again, your opinion about the Greek present tense is false. Actually, the answer to your question about who are Jesus' sheep is found in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus referred to Himself in metaphor, as a gate for the sheep pen. Those who believe in Him are saved. That's what makes people His sheep. Through faith in Him. That's how they are saved.

btw, the Greek word for "enters" isn't the present tense, but the aorist tense. Same tense that Paul used for 'believe' for the Philippian jailer who asked him what he must do to be saved.

Except there is NO CONDITION in John 10:27 that indicates a conditional clause.

It's a policy statement about what His sheep are to do. There is NOTHING about how to become one of His sheep.

Right. 1 John 2:25 is a promise for those who believe. Just as John 10:28 is a promise for recipients of eternal life, which is given when one believes; that they shall never perish.

Aren't you aware of how conditional clauses are stated or worded??

Words such as "if" and "unless" are used.

So, what specific words in John 10:27 communicate the idea of a condition to meet??

You miss the whole point of Scripture. It's those who have believed that are commanded to follow Him.

Again, v.27 is a policy statement, not a condition to become a sheep of Jesus.

Here is just how erroneous your comment is.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Again, you completely miss my point. My "attack" is against your FALSE and ERRONEOUS claim about the present tense. You need to obtain a Greek grammar text and learn what the various tenses mean.

When the Bible mentions "unbelief" it always refers to those how NEVER BELIEVED.

I can prove this.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Can you seriously claim that "former believers" "have NOT believed"? Of course you can't.

Once a person believes, they CANNOT be described as "have not believed".

The Bible says it's those who have not believed that will be condemned.

There are NO verses about former believers being condemned.

I'm tired of your erroneous claims about that which you don't understand.

Here, please review this link on Greek verb tenses:

Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

Also, review this link regarding conditional sentences in the Greek:

Greek Conditional Sentences

May the Holy Spirit guide you into the truth.

You attack the present tense for you are looking for (1) a way for one to be a sheep without having to hear and follow Christ or (2) looking for a way for one to quit hearing and following Christ yet still remain a sheep...neither position is Biblical, logical.

Why do I need to go to John 10:9 when in the immediate context of John 10:27-28 tells me who Christ sheep are...the ones that continue to hear and follow Christ?? If all you had to go by was John 10:28 you could never tell me who the pronouns "they" and "them" refer to. In the immediate context, grammatically the antecedent of "they" and "them" of John 10:28 refers back those that hear and follow Christ of John 10:27 NOT to anything in John 10:9.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

This plain clear statment makes it impossible for one to be of "My sheep" unless one continues to hear and follow. You are doing all you can to get rid of verse 27 for it refutes OSAS. How grammar is used in other verses does not change the grammar of John 10:27 and the required present tense showing the action of hearing and believing must be ongoing, sustained.

Again, you cannot prove that one can be a sheep of Christ without one hearing and following Christ ongoingly.

FreeGrace2 · May 28, 2019

TheSeabass said:
You attack the present tense

Good grief! Don't you read my posts? I explained exactly what I "attacked" and it wasn't the present tense. It was YOUR faulty understanding of it. It is getting clear to me that we're not going to have any kind of productive discussion since you aren't even paying attention to what I write.

for you are looking for (1) a way for one to be a sheep without having to hear and follow Christ or (2) looking for a way for one to quit hearing and following Christ yet still remain a sheep...neither position is Biblical, logical.

You are just so confused. I don't need to "look for a way...". The Bible is very clear. There is NO CONDITION stated in either v.27 or v.28. I ASKED you to show me the exact words that indicate a conditional clause, but since you seem not to read my posts, you can conveniently ignore my questions that you cannot answer.

Why do I need to go to John 10:9 when in the immediate context of John 10:27-28 tells me who Christ sheep are...the ones that continue to hear and follow Christ??

Well, let me explain to you (if you do read my posts) WHY v.9 is important. It is the WAY to salvation. Haven't you ever read the verse? I already quoted and explained the verse.

But, here it is again. Maybe you'll read it this time.
"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

OK, pay attention to the red words. Those are the words that tell us HOW to be saved. Jesus used a metaphor to describe Himself, as the gate. Those who believe in Him are His sheep. Very simple.

Oh, and, btw, v.9 is in the SAME CONTEXT as v.27 and v.28, since Jesus describes people as His sheep. They became His sheep by "entering through Him" (v.9).

If all you had to go by was John 10:28 you could never tell me who the pronouns "they" and "them" refer to.

But I don't have "only v.28". His sheep are identified at the beginning of v.27 and then the policy statement about how they are to behave.

In the immediate context, grammatically the antecedent of "they" and "them" of John 10:28 refers back those that hear and follow Christ of John 10:27 NOT to anything in John 10:9.

Wow. What a twist. In fact, the listening and following describe "My sheep", and the entire chapter uses the metaphor of "sheep" to describe both Jesus' sheep and those who are not His sheep.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

This plain clear statment makes it impossible for one to be of "My sheep" unless one continues to hear and follow.

You cannot prove your unfounded claim.

This is how you seem to "read" the verse:

Those sheep who hear my voice, and follow me become My sheep.

But the verse says nothing close to your fantasy.

v.27 is a policy statement regarding His sheep.

You are doing all you can to get rid of verse 27 for it refutes OSAS.

\
You're going to have to put in a little elbow grease and explain how it does.

But I'll save you some time. There is NO WAY v.27 refutes anything. It's a description of His sheep, not a condition for becoming His sheep, as you assume.

How grammar is used in other verses does not change the grammar of John 10:27 and the required present tense showing the action of hearing and believing must be ongoing, sustained.

Oh, please just STOP with the erroneous use of the present tense. I've already proven you wrong, but then, you aren't apparently reading my posts.

Again, you cannot prove that one can be a sheep of Christ without one hearing and following Christ ongoingly.

Actually, you are the one who can't prove that hearing and following are conditions to be met in order to become His sheep.

The very words of v.27 SHOW that Jesus was describing what His sheep are to do as a policy. Not a condition for becoming one of his sheep.

If you think so, you are showing that you do not understand English words and English grammar, because there are NO WORDS that indicate a condition to be met in either v.27 or v.28.

Didn't you read either link I provided? Probably not.

TheSeabass · May 29, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
If you think so, you are showing that you do not understand English words and English grammar, because there are NO WORDS that indicate a condition to be met in either v.27 or v.28.

Didn't you read either link I provided? Probably not.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

The language cannot be more clear and simple that to be of "my sheep" one must CONDTIONALLY hear and follow. Verse 27 refutes the wresting done to verse 28 by those who push OSAS. There is no such thing as one being a sheep of Christ without following Christ...it is not Biblical or logical.

If there is no condition in John 10:27 then there is no condition in John 10:9 whereby one can be saved UNCONDTIONALLY without having to conditionally enter Christ the Door. It appears you see or do not see conditions only when it is convenient to your theological bias.

It would be a waste of my time to go any further when one rejects the easy, clear language of John 10:27.

RDKirk · May 29, 2019

God knows who will be with Him in the end, so from His point of view, nobody He knows will be with Him in the end will have been lost, everyone He knows will be with Him in the end is saved.

We don't know who will be with God in the end, so from our point of view, people who look saved today may not look saved tomorrow, and people who don't look saved today may look saved tomorrow.

FreeGrace2 · May 29, 2019

TheSeabass said:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

I know you're kidding, unless you really don't have a full grasp of English grammar.

There is NOTHING in v.27 to indicate that either hearing or following is a condition to be met in order to be a sheep of Jesus.

v27 is clearly and painfully obviously a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Nothing about how to become a sheep of Jesus.

All you're doing is trying to twist the verse totally out of shape.

The language cannot be more clear and simple that to be of "my sheep" one must CONDTIONALLY hear and follow.

Pure nonsense.

Verse 27 refutes the wresting done to verse 28 by those who push OSAS.

No "wresting" necessary.

In v.27 Jesus describes what His sheep DO. Clearly.

In v.28 Jesus tells us He gives eternal life to His sheep, and then says that His sheep will never perish.

There is no such thing as one being a sheep of Christ without following Christ...it is not Biblical or logical.

If it is biblical, then prove it by sharing some verses.

If there is no condition in John 10:27 then there is no condition in John 10:9 whereby one can be saved UNCONDTIONALLY without having to conditionally enter Christ the Door.

You're not being logical here. The condition for being saved is to enter the gate (Christ) by faith in Him. There is NO CONDITION mentioned in v.27. Your claim is baseless.

It appears you see or do not see conditions only when it is convenient to your theological bias.

Nonsense. I see conditions WHEN I see such words as "if..." or "unless...". Those are the words that indicate conditions to be met.

I'll give you an example:
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

I put the "condition" in red so you won't miss it.

Here's another example:
Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Some translations have "lest" instead of "so that". But both are conditional words to be met.

It would be a waste of my time to go any further when one rejects the easy, clear language of John 10:27.

That's just about my conclusion regarding your abuse of v.27.

Gr8Grace · May 31, 2019

TheSeabass said:
It would be a waste of my time to go any further when one rejects the easy, clear language of John 10:27.

Reading through your responses........seems YOU are rejecting the clear, easy language of vs 27.

The Lord Jesus Christ says, "MY sheep" in vs 27. That is an EMPHATIC personal pronoun. His Sheep ARE His....so much so, that He uses vs 28 to clearly and simply tell His sheep what He has done for them, because they are HIS.

You cannot claim to be one of His sheep if you think that you may perish. Because He PROMISES His sheep that they will NEVER perish.

There is no possible way for you to claim that you are one of His sheep vs 27, and think that His sheep might perish vs 28.

So are you one of His sheep? If you claim you are one of His sheep................then you claim The Lord Jesus Christ lied to you in vs 28. He says you will never perish, you say you might perish.

Are you one of His Sheep...... vs 27 ? If 'yes' you have no wiggle room to perish.... vs 28.

anna ~ grace · May 31, 2019

No, it is possible.

Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Assurance of Salvation?

TheSeabass · Jun 1, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Reading through your responses........seems YOU are rejecting the clear, easy language of vs 27.

The Lord Jesus Christ says, "MY sheep" in vs 27. That is an EMPHATIC personal pronoun. His Sheep ARE His....so much so, that He uses vs 28 to clearly and simply tell His sheep what He has done for them, because they are HIS.

You cannot claim to be one of His sheep if you think that you may perish. Because He PROMISES His sheep that they will NEVER perish.

There is no possible way for you to claim that you are one of His sheep vs 27, and think that His sheep might perish vs 28.

So are you one of His sheep? If you claim you are one of His sheep................then you claim The Lord Jesus Christ lied to you in vs 28. He says you will never perish, you say you might perish.

Are you one of His Sheep...... vs 27 ? If 'yes' you have no wiggle room to perish.... vs 28.

verse 27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

verse 28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

In John 10:27 Jesus QAULIFIED the phrase MY SHEEP with those who HEAR and Follow Him. Therefore it is NOT possible that a person can be of MY SHEEP if that person does not hear and follow Christ.

"they shall not perish" - the pronoun "they" in verse 28, refers back to "MY SHEEP" which hear and follow. Therefore if one does NOT hear and follow then one is NOT of My Sheep and one is NOT of the "they" in verse 28.

So yes, Jesus promised HIS SHEEP would not perish but HIS SHEEP are the ones who CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE to hear and follow Him. One hears and follow Christ by one's own volition and one can quit hearing and following him by that same volition therefore be disqualified from being one of HIS SHEEP and therefore not of the "they " in verse 28.

There is no such thing in the NT gospel of one being of HIS SHEEP yet while at the same time one is not hearing and following Jesus.

Therefore the bottom line: to be of the "they" and "them" of verse 28 one must CONDTIONALLY CONTINUE hear and follow Christ to be of HIS SHEEP. Those that do continually, faithfully hear and follow Christ will be of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. There are conditions found within verses 27 and 28, nothing UNconditional in being of HIS SHEEP.

Dr. Jack · Jun 3, 2019

TheSeabass said:
You attack the present tense for you are looking for (1) a way for one to be a sheep without having to hear and follow Christ or (2) looking for a way for one to quit hearing and following Christ yet still remain a sheep...neither position is Biblical, logical.

Why do I need to go to John 10:9 when in the immediate context of John 10:27-28 tells me who Christ sheep are...the ones that continue to hear and follow Christ?? If all you had to go by was John 10:28 you could never tell me who the pronouns "they" and "them" refer to. In the immediate context, grammatically the antecedent of "they" and "them" of John 10:28 refers back those that hear and follow Christ of John 10:27 NOT to anything in John 10:9.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

This plain clear statment makes it impossible for one to be of "My sheep" unless one continues to hear and follow. You are doing all you can to get rid of verse 27 for it refutes OSAS. How grammar is used in other verses does not change the grammar of John 10:27 and the required present tense showing the action of hearing and believing must be ongoing, sustained.

Again, you cannot prove that one can be a sheep of Christ without one hearing and following Christ ongoingly.

In my classes I always found it best to initially state things in a simple and concise manner first. So let's try a sample sentence for illustrative purposes:

"All those now standing will 1) absolutely pass this course; and 2) never get any homework assignments!"

This statement says that, anyone who is "standing" at the time they heard me make the promise, receives that guarantee, not if they 'continue' to stand; but if they 'are' (or were) actively "standing" when the promise was heard.

Now replace the words 'standing', 'pass' and 'homework assignments' with 'believe', 'saved', and 'perish'.

When Jesus spoke concerning His "sheep", He has already established that the sheep to which He is referring have already repented (stopped believing in their own ability to save themselves, and reached a point where they changed their minds, and then began to believe that only Jesus could save them ... thus becoming His sheep).

It is now the responsibility of Jesus to fulfill the promise made by him concerning John 3:16 - 18. Hence, it is not an active working (reward earning belief) that keeps the believer saved; but the power of the One who made the promise to keep the believer secure, after his initial measure of faith in Christ!

TheSeabass · Jun 3, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
In my classes I always found it best to initially state things in a simple and concise manner first. So let's try a sample sentence for illustrative purposes:

"All those now standing will 1) absolutely pass this course; and 2) never get any homework assignments!"

This statement says that, anyone who is "standing" at the time they heard me make the promise, receives that guarantee, not if they 'continue' to stand; but if they 'are' (or were) actively "standing" when the promise was heard.

John 10:27 all those who are Christ's sheep are the ones who do not just hear and follow right NOW, but have an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. If any quit hearing and following then they are disqualified from being of Christ sheep.

If any in your class who are NOW standing ever sit, then they would be disqualified from passing the course. If not, then your analogy does not fit with verse 27.

Dr. Jack said:
Now replace the words 'standing', 'pass' and 'homework assignments' with 'believe', 'saved', and 'perish'.

When Jesus spoke concerning His "sheep", He has already established that the sheep to which He is referring have already repented (stopped believing in their own ability to save themselves, and reached a point where they changed their minds, and then began to believe that only Jesus could save them ... thus becoming His sheep).

It is now the responsibility of Jesus to fulfill the promise made by him concerning John 3:16 - 18. Hence, it is not an active working (reward earning belief) that keeps the believer saved; but the power of the One who made the promise to keep the believer secure, after his initial measure of faith in Christ!

Yes, those who are of Christ sheep hear and follow Christ, meaning they follow Christ's command to repent when they sin (sheep are not perfectly sinless). Yet for those sheep that conditionally continue to repent of their sins (continue to walk in the light - Christ's words) then Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. 1 John 1:7 has conditions in it in having all sins washed away just as John 10:27-28 in being one of Christ's sheep.

In John 10:27 and 1 John 1:7 the present tense of those verbs matter for they show, as you would know, an action that is ongoing, sustained. For if one quits, then he know longer qualifies for what was promised.

Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

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