How do abortion supporters respond to this? I don't think there is a way to.

SPF said:

I’m more than OK to stand before God and be judged for believing it was wrong to kill His most innocent and vulnerable creation for convenience sake.

You’re conflating issues. I would hope you’re intelligent enough to recognize the difference between innocent according to secular law and innocent before God.

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What are your thoughts on free-will?

SPF said:

I’m more than OK to stand before God and be judged for believing it was wrong to kill His most innocent and vulnerable creation for convenience sake.

You’re conflating issues. I would hope you’re intelligent enough to recognize the difference between innocent according to secular law and innocent before God.

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What do you mean by secular law?

Your rights to freedom are a secular law and standing innocent before God is through Christ not moral law.

It would seem you're stuck in old law moses territory being judged by it and thinking it's okay to keep judging others by it. When God through his son judges through the law of grace.

Free-will is the oldest law there is. That is, you do the morally right thing to do. Keep the baby but you cannot force a woman to have a child. Just as God cannot force us to love him or force us not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Looks like America is already making abortions illegal so I reckon you should be happy . I just read an article that Alabama made it so. That will pave the way for your freedoms to be changed.

Mel333 said:

Free-will is the oldest law there is. That is, you do the morally right thing to do. Keep the baby but you cannot force a woman to have a child. Just as God cannot force us to love him or force us not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

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Amen! I do not believe all morals are either the same for everyone or different for everyone. But I know I have the right to call an act immoral that many pro-life members likely think it is completely moral. What should we call moral here in the abhortion debate?

IMMORAL
Forcing victims or rape or incest to carry their babies to term. If you disagree, read the question I posted 2 times in dfferent threads. There are no morals supporting the lack of help and love a mother needs to get the right kind of health care, PTSD treatments and counseling. and state-funded programs to improve all of the ways sex crime victims in high school can get the help they need.

The arguments I'm hearing to justify abortion are the exact arguments made to justify the brutal practice of slavery that Christians fought so hard to abolish. The SC ruled in favor of it, therefore, it's constitutional, therefore, it's moral. We must give states and slave owners the freedom to decide for themselves. Don't you believe in freewill?

Amazing how these arguments get recycled.

ChristianForCats said:

Amen! I do not believe all morals are either the same for everyone or different for everyone. But I know I have the right to call an act immoral that many pro-life members likely think it is completely moral. What should we call moral here in the abhortion debate?

IMMORAL
Forcing victims or rape or incest to carry their babies to term, If you disagree, read the questin I posted 2 times in dfferent threads. There are no morals supporting the lack of help and love a mother needs to get the right kind of health care, PTSD treatments and counseling. and state-funded programs to improve all of the ways sex crime victims in high school can get the help they need.

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I agree. I believe a woman should have the choice in that case. If she chooses to kill the child, the rapist should be charged with murder.

IMMORAL
Lying and saying an unborn baby is part of a woman's body, for the purpose of taking away their right to life.

Aquila0121 said:

I've heard that Belgium and Switzerland have some of the lowest abortion rates on earth, and they are Prochoice countries.

If memory serves me correctly, I read that the following contributes to this reality in these countries:

- Both men and women have extensive access to birth control and prophylactics.
- Everyone has health insurance.
- Health insurance covers birth control.
- Men and women have equal pay.
- Men and women receive a living wage adjusted for inflation.
- Women are guaranteed paid maternity leave to cover expenses while recovering and to bond with the child.
- State universities have subsidized daycare facilities.
- Health insurance covers counseling to address rape, domestic abuse, and incest.

The result is fewer women choosing abortion (around 5 per every 1,000 pregnancies).

In the United States:

- We're still arguing over health insurance providing birth control.
- Millions still do not have healthcare coverage that will cover prenatal, delivery, and post natal care.
- Women are not guaranteed equal pay.
- Women do not make a living wage adjusted for inflation.
- Women are not guaranteed paid maternity leave to cover expenses during recovery and bonding with the child.
- Public universities do not provide childcare.
- Millions do not have access to counseling or mental health social services to address rape, domestic abuse, or incest.

The result is... more women choose to fix their circumstance through an abortion (roughly 17 for every 1,000 pregnancies, that's over 3 times the number of abortions compared to Belgium and Switzerland).

Perhaps we should take a closer look at how other nations have addressed this issue.

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Thank you for countering the straw man put up by the video and posters in this thread. Pro-lifers should care about taking care of mothers and fathers because it PREVENTS abortion. It is DIRECTLY related to the issue of abortion. And you don’t see the cancer society opposing legislation that increases funding for measures that prevent cancer. Pro-life politicians are consistently OPPOSED to providing better access to birth control and sex Ed, and providing government funded healthcare and paid maternity leave for mothers and babies.

This is an interesting article:

These are all the states that have adopted anti-abortion laws so far in 2019

Alabama has already outlawed abortions to perform them.. Someone should have counter argued with this and you would have won the debate.

Thanks everyone for the debate! I've learned so much

The abortion debate always misses the mark on one key piece. It isn't about a woman choosing, or really about the long term affects in either scenario, but rather the key is that people don't want to accept the consequences of their actions.

Mel333 said:

This is an interesting article:

These are all the states that have adopted anti-abortion laws so far in 2019

Alabama has already outlawed abortions to perform them. Someone should have counter argued with this and you would have won the debate.

Thanks everyone for the debate! I've learned so much

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Alabama's abortion law does not take effect until November 15 if it runs on schedule.

NW82 said:

The abortion debate always misses the mark on one key piece. It isn't about a woman choosing, or really about the long term affects in either scenario, but rather the key is that people don't want to accept the consequences of their actions.

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Yep. The me society. They always pretend to care about the rare cases (rape, etc.), but 99% are just a woman deciding it's not the right time and therefore the baby must die. It's also a clear break from the biblical view that human life is sacred to God. Only Christians understand this today it seems (at least most).

Calminian said:

Yep. The me society. They always pretend to care about the rare cases (rape, etc.), but 99% are just a woman deciding it's not the right time and therefore the baby must die. It's also a clear break from the biblical view that human life is sacred to God. Only Christians understand this today it seems (at least most).

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If it is only about the woman not wanting to raise a child it is about lacking education and help resources. How many of these women know what they could do instead and just do not want to be pregnant for nine months?

Danielwright2311 said:

Abortion is murder, so, yes, It would save billions of lives.

If murder was legal, there would be billions of murders.

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Billions of lives can be saved if you include the entire animal kingdom from blue whales to gnats

ChristianForCats said:

Billions of lives can be saved if you include the entire animal kingdom from blue whales to gnats

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I'm more concerned for human life, the life of babies, that is the issue for now, you can not fight more then one battle at a time.

Danielwright2311 said:

I'm more concerned for human life, the life of babies, that is the issue for now, you can not fight more then one battle at a time.

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So you know you can't save billions of lives by fighting abortion.

Read some posts and have thoughts about it. Firstly is it murder or not and whether mothers should be legally held responsible, my understanding is generally the Pro-life movement refers to it as killing as murder is a legal term according to the law. And it's those who do the actual abortion who would be held legally responsible (e.g. doctor), reason is compassion for the mothers who're desperate and mislead.

Secondly I agree with the woman answering the question. I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect pro-life people to have all the solutions and solve all the other problems first. She even pointed out that others are addressing those problems like how the Diabetic Association does diabetes but Cancer Association does for cancer too. People are concentrating their efforts and specializing to make a bigger impact in a specific area. We can't know and do it all ourselves, it's helpful to not be spread thin and leave other areas to people who've decided that's where their attention needs to be for making a difference. What is possible being Pro-life is to support people who're opposing abortion, but also those who're supporting adoption. This isn't limited to being a known activist or adopting a child, could volunteer or donate to specific charities and even work at specific organizations (e.g. adoption agency).

Thirdly the question of constitutionality regarding abortion isn't explicitly defined in the Constitution, but Judicial interpretation. Which lends on science and viability for weighing the rights of the mother and the child. Since Roe v. Wade was decided the science is clearer and viability is earlier (e.g. heartbeat, feeling pain, tech. and medical advancements etc.) So if constitutionality and rights are dependent on this case, it's not by default Pro-choice siding with the mother.

Brotherly Spirit said:

Read some posts and have thoughts about it. Firstly is it murder or not and whether mothers should be legally held responsible, my understanding is generally the Pro-life movement refers to it as killing as murder is a legal term according to the law. And it's those who do the actual abortion who would be held legally responsible (e.g. doctor), reason is compassion for the mothers who're desperate and mislead.....

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I myself am a little annoyed with this tactic. It's almost insulting to women. It casts them as imbeciles who can't put 2 and 2 together.

If this law stands and a woman conspires with her doctor to kill her child, I say hold them both accountable. Women, contrary to opinion, are not pathetic ignoramuses. They're just as capable as men at discerning they're breaking the law, and committing a grotesque immoral act.

Sorry, I just get so tired of this. Agreed with your post in general.

Calminian said:

I myself am a little annoyed with this tactic. It's almost insulting to women. It casts them as imbeciles who can't put 2 and 2 together.

If this law stands and a woman conspires with her doctor to kill her child, I say hold them both accountable. Women, contrary to opinion, are not pathetic ignoramuses. They're just as capable as men at discerning they're breaking the law, and committing a grotesque immoral act.

Sorry, I just get so tired of this. Agreed with your post in general.

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What part of Brotherly's post is insulting to women? I am not the least bit insulted by someone saying the doctor is killing her unborn baby. That is the truth. What would be insulting to me is saying the mom is or was a murderer, which obviously is notf true. If the doctor should be held accountable, it is because he or she was the only one who killed an unborn baby, not the mother. And it should only be if the doctor was negligent, causing a wrongful injury, illness, or infection deserving of a civil lawsuit.

ChristianForCats said:

It is a debate between two women about killing an embryo or fetus to avoid causing the kid to suffer after birth as an unwanted baby.

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Correction.
You mean a debate between two women about killing a baby to avoid causing the baby to suffer as an unwanted baby.
How would they know if the baby would be unwanted?
Can they see the future?
Special crystal ball with visions?
Totally lame excuse to justify killing a baby for anyone who thinks so.

ItIsFinished! said:

Correction.
You mean a debate between two women about killing a baby to avoid causing the baby to suffer as an unwanted baby.
How would they know if the baby would be unwanted?
Can they see the future?
Special crystal ball with visions?
Totally lame excuse to justify killing a baby for anyone who thinks so.

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They know the mother does not want the baby. She says she did not want the baby. DUH.

I am not making any excuses for killing a baby. That is what ther mother would do.

ChristianForCats said:

They know the mother does not want the baby. She says she did not want the baby. DUH.

I am not making any excuses for killing a baby. That is what ther mother would do.

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I never said you were making an excuse to kill babies. I said, " totally lame excuse to justify killing a baby for ANYONE who thinks so. Why? Because that is one of the main excuses to support the killing of a baby.
So there is your DUH .