The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

Tone · May 29, 2019

bmjackson said:
Yes indeed those who have crucified the flesh find their strength in the Lord.

I had struggled for a long time, it was 17 years in total, wanting to know HOW to cast off the old man but the more I tried the worse it was. It cannot be done through will power.

Initially, coming to Christ was a profound experience as I had been raised in an atheist family in an ungodly environment in England where religion had no place in the culture. I met a young couple training for the ministry while I was looking at various religions and then one night at 9 pm on 23rd September 1973, after reading their books, Christ showed me He had died for me. But within a few months things began to slide.

I tried to find out where I was going wrong but no answer came and like George Fox, wondered in the wilderness.

God bless to you too and I am a sister btw.

John 15:2
"2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit,He prunes to make it even more fruitful."

Maybe?

Gideons300 · May 29, 2019

Something is up. Maybe someone else here senses it. But it has been 12 years of faithfully (and sadly, if I am honest, sometimes unfaithfully) walking as the new creature I am, and I have had times where my words seemed to be somewhat anointed and times where my words seemed to just fall on deaf ears, but today was/is different. There was God in this post. I sensed Him. I pray some here did as well. Thanks you to all who are keeping up with it and all who are giving such great words of wisdom and encouragement. Trust me, I need it as much as anyone here.

I believe we are on the very cusp of what God is fixing to do with us as His church. I suspect that many readers are simply scratching their heads, not wanting to get their hopes up, but inwardly wishing their walk could really be like.... well, lol, like what God promised to us, walking as as full-blown overcomers beaming Jesus to an increasingly darkening world.

I pray you do not give up and be put off by what is being shared. I pray as well you do not just conclude these are words of a crazy man or heretic. What I am sharing as best I canxwith you is what He, in His mercy, has taught me. What I share is NOT theory. It works be ause God works. . If you have genuine questions, ask! I will give it my best shot to answer.

What God wants from us is not for us to die. He wants us to die to our trying to die, and then to believe we are already dead.

If you know of any who are struggling with their faith or with a sin, or who are hungry for something more, feel free to copy anything written and share it. My only goal is to see people fully walk in and become established in their birthright.... new natures kept by the power of God through faith, and changed as well!

We may know we are new creatures with our heads, but It does us no good until that new nature is claimed by faith and put on.

One thing I know for sure is that we are about to be amazed. Perhaps a bit of it started today. I pray so. I guess we shall see!

Blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · May 29, 2019

Lost4words said:
Lots of excellent posts.

Recently i have been offering up my thoughts, sinful thoughts etc, to God, and asking Him to replace them with His grace. I have been thanking God for His grace. I do believe that God is helping me in my struggles.

We have to turn to God when we sin, ask for repentence and His grace and then, TRULY BELIEVE we have received them.

I am not as knowledgeable as most on here. I am no theologian.

Some know my struggles. I truly believe i have turned the corner through God's grace!

May God bless and protect you all.

Brother, I rejoice with you. You are in my prayers. Our God is faithful.

blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · May 29, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Brother of Mature Faith,

This is spiritual food for the soul! I have read what you have written and it encourages me. I gotta be honest, old Lu is probably REALLY mad you gave this testimony!

I have followed your thread with anticipation to read this! I quote it so little lately, and yet that Armor is so very precious! We don't just wear it as His Cloak, but it IS our Armor and Gospel Equipment!

I took the time to read every word you wrote and I didn't resist a single one!

Humility! You have found True Humility in him. This being said... I'll stop being so positive about your writing now, go get the Tar and Feathers, so your hat will keep fitting.

Sincerely! This is a read that is full of Gospel Faith, Hope and Love!

All Faith, Hope and Above ALL LOVE to you from The Origin of all wonderful things, such as these!

Thank you for your kind words.

What God is about to do in our midst will be mind blowing. His Church is scattered throughout thecworld, with every denomination having both sheep and goats, some with more sheep than others, lol.

But we have a problem. As a body, we are not one. We are fractured, splintered, Divided. Why? Because we have not been walking as one with Him. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than from the tree of life.

When the awakening is in full swing, how will the church look? Here it gets murky, but is getting clearer day by day. I. know this. There will be no televangelists. No begging for money for a ministry. No suave ministers milking sheep. No evangelistic societies named after a man. What pride! What arrogance.

One thing I have noticed in those who have discovered their newness is the soft humility. It is is easy to be humble when you come to the place you have NOTHING to offer God, no strength, no resolve, no talent, thoroughly broken of all self confidence.

Those who are ordained to minister will truly do so from the point of being servants of all. No more ministers living in million dollar homes. They will live what they preach, and like Paul, say "I don't want yours, but you." I cannot wait.

It will be a grass roots fire, one saint catching fire from another. Buckle your seatbelt, it is about to get amazing.

God tells us in Ezekiel 36 that the heathen will know the our God is Lord when He shall be sanctified in us before their very eyes. This is what you and I have to look forward to being a part of.

Sleep well my friend.

Gids

Grip Docility · May 29, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Thank you for your kind words.

What God is about to do in our midst will be mind blowing. His Church is scattered throughout thecworld, with every denomination having both sheep and goats, some with more sheep than others, lol.

But we have a problem. As a body, we are not one. We are fractured, splintered, Divided. Why? Because we have not been walking as one with Him. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than from the tree of life.

When the awakening is in full swing, how will the church look? Here it gets murky, but is getting clearer day by day. I. know this. There will be no televangelists. No begging for money for a ministry. No suave ministers milking sheep. No evangelistic societies named after a man. What pride! What arrogance.

One thing I have noticed in those who have discovered their newness is the soft humility. It is is easy to be humble when you come to the place you have NOTHING to offer God, no strength, no resolve, no talent, thoroughly broken of all self confidence.

Those who are ordained to minister will truly do so from the point of being servants of all. No more ministers living in million dollar homes. They will live what they preach, and like Paul, say "I don't want yours, but you." I cannot wait.

It will be a grass roots fire, one saint catching fire from another. Buckle your seatbelt, it is about to get amazing.

God tells us in Ezekiel 36 that the heathen will know the our God is Lord when He shall be sanctified in us before their very eyes. This is what you and I have to look forward to being a part of.

Sleep well my friend.

Gids

I understand what you are saying. I really am just a Sinful man, Saved by Jesus... In Love with Jesus and offered as His Bond Servant out of a desire to be nothing but that.

I Love People, by Christ... but Brother... Know I am well to live out however many days He wills or not live, as He wills... I understand John 12:25 passionately.

I long for Jesus. I am jealous that Paul could run to the Chopping block in His name.

I’m not saying I want that, but Jesus has consumed me. I’m thankful for His Spirit, but be it by death or other... I want to be with Him above all things.

misput · May 30, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

This is no mystery and certainly not a contradiction. Paul is simply saying we are saved by faith to do good deeds. James is simply saying if the good deeds do not follow we do not have faith. The problem comes when our spirit begins to war with our faith, accusing and deceiving us into thinking we are failing. If we do not maintain our faith in God/Christ we will fail, so hear we are right back to being saved by faith not works. Can you dig it, is it too simple? We must rely (have faith) in the promise of God that the war has already been won by Christ no matter how it may appear to us at any given moment. This is the good news my friends and always has been!

bmjackson · May 30, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Yes, we must lose our lives..... our old natures..... but until our sin becomes so exceedingly sinful that we truly HATE the old us, the us that refuses to bow the knee fully to the Lordship of Christ over us, the us that thinks God winks at our sins now because of the blood of His beloved Son, we will find it impossible to fully repent, and thus, impossible to fully believe what He is actually offering us.

So true brother @Gideons300. I have been saying this for 15+ years on forums and have been called a heretic and many worse things lol. It has greatly encouraged me to read your writings particularly when you say this:

Gideons300 said:
You and I are early risers, so it seems, but praise God, every single true sheep WILL soon awaken, and light their lamps by reckoning their old man as DEAD. Until we do that we cannot walk in our new nature that hates sin and self rule. Thus we rob ourselves of progress as well as joy.

Regardless, we are destined to be the blessed generation of those who will awaken to His call, and we will light our lamps by finally confessing and believing that the old "us" is truly dead.

I had come to the conclusion that it was not going to happen in my lifetime, and anyway feel too old now due to chronic sickness, but could not understand why things have been so hard this last 18 months with such satanic attack I have never known. Please tell me why you think it wil be soon?

Gideons300 said:
God is beginning to do something in our midst and no amount of our religious satisfaction with our Bible knowledge, church functions, volunteer activities will stand a chance from the avalanche of love and separation unto Him that we will witness with our own eyes, and even better,, experience in our very lives. .

This:

Gideons300 said:
What God wants from us is not for us to die. He wants us to die to our trying to die, and then to believe we are already dead.

Yes indeed it was done in the past and we are required to just believe it. Not just as a mental acknowledgement but as the basis of all of our thoughts and actions. I am dead to sin therefore I can no longer entertain it. One error being taught is that we must die to self. That is a new age concept.

Oh if only people would believe that it is that simple and give up trying to crucify themselves and just believe it.

bmjackson · May 30, 2019

setst777 said:
Regarding original sin, my personal opinion, is the following. . .

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were suppose to die that very day as God warned and promised them they should. While indeed they lost that Spiritual union with God when they sinned, they did not die physically at that time. Even so, the Paradise was lost at that time to all humanity.

God spared Adam and Eve in His mercy, and so he also spared the whole human race that would come from Adam and Eve. God did this because His plan - through Christ - was to save those He foreknew would walk with Him by faith, to those who love God. God foreknew these faithful ones through time. And to these faithful ones, God also predestined for salvation in His Son - the 2nd Adam.

So original sin means to me that all humans should have never existed because Adam and Eve were suppose to die the very day they sinned, and so the whole human race should have died with Adam and Eve.

God spared Adam and Eve, and so gave the entire human race an opportunity to believe in Him according to His love and grace, even so, Paradise is lost to humanity at this time in this present world system. And to those who do believe, God credits the righteousness of Christ to their accounts and re-establishes Spiritual union with these faithful ones.

God promises those who believe a fulfilling life in the peace of God now as they listen to and follow Him in that New Life of faith - this is salvation.

And in the age to come God promises and rewards these same faithful ones an eternal inheritance after their life here is ended - Paradise regained.

This plan of God's is now being worked out in real time, and the sons of God are being revealed throughout time according to His plan and foreknowledge. Even so, as Scripture teaches, only a remnant of humanity will truly believe and be eternally save.

Interesting @setst777. I think however that creation had death as part of it from the start, note the animal skin used by God to clothe the first couple. And if no-one would die but keep on breeding - how quickly would Eden fill up. I think that the death God meant was spiritual death or separation from communion with Him. And I do think that Paradise is to be regained in this life, that is to say, full communion with God which occurs when we are washed in the blood of Christ and cleansed from all sin. But yes, the remnant - many think they are washed in the blood are not saved because they are not saved from sin which is why the Saviour came to earth.

bmjackson · May 30, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Brother... this is a hard line of disagreement for us then, and I joyfully agree to disagree with you there.

Privation is the Origin of sin. The Devil exalted himself in pride, out of a ridiculous need to be something he had not been created to be. No man is without it, physically, in some sense, until death.

The Devil made Eve feel inadequate, right off rip, by telling her the lie that she lacked something. She was convinced it would benefit her to have the "Wisdom of God".

I do not deny that God can loose chains of sin...

But, here is where I see danger in what is being proposed... No one, but JESUS was ever PERFECT in the flesh for a single second. I guess I'll go ahead and finish the thought... it is Sin to suggest otherwise, thus proofing my aforementioned point. Sorry all... (1 John 1:8-10) All men are in need of Jesus, moment to moment. Not because of a propensity to sin, or some mystical failure on God's part, but because only ONE BEING of all existence is Genuinely Selfless.

All men have the opportunity to walk the straight and narrow, but no man, but He Who Is God, did so. This is why Jesus is the Rightful King.

This is merely my opinion... All Love to you, in Jesus Christ, Brother bmjackson

Thank you Brother @Grip Docility. I would like to bring up the verse you quoted and thank you for doing that. Many, as I did myself at one time, believe that John is speaking against sinlessness, and use this verse – if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves 1 John 8, to justify their position but they are taking it out of context as 1 John was written to counteract heresy. The Latin version says “Epistle to the Pathians” adopted by Ancient Fathers, defended by Grotius, not in Greek. Whoton conjectures on the Greek superscription (to virgins) because the letter was addressed to 'uncorrupted Christians' therefore holy ones. John was warning those who were in danger of hearing Zorostrian principles and therefore Gnosticism which taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, which is nowadays recognised as imputed righteousness which has been refuted by holiness preacher George Fox of the early Quakers.

The basis of this error that a man can sin and still be in Christ, was made popular and was spread through the church by Augustine, when he changed his doctrine in dispute with Pelagius and the early Christians, to an unheard of rendition that made Romans 7 to be the normal experience of a believer. 1 John 1:6,7 say that if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth, but if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. He continues, If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. 8,9.

We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is to say walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two opposing states which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about carnal or fleshy believers against those walking in the Spirit or Spirit filled.

The benefits of walking in the Spirit are:

1)we have fellowship with one another

2)by confessing our sin we are forgiven

3)we will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness.

However if we walk in the flesh and sin we are deceived and are blind to our need to come to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin (if we say we have no need of this - it is already done) as are those today who are misled by Gnosticism by preachers of positional righteousness. John corrects that fallacy by saying Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7. This is the test, we must not be in just a position of righteousness and depend on coming to Christ in the past for forgiveness, but must be in the present reality, must be like Christ and walking in perfect obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit.

But whoso keepeth His word, in Him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5

My little children, these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9.

And yes every man needs Jesus moment by moment to keep him in that state.

Mountainmike · May 30, 2019

I answer with a question.

IS THERE a "faith vs works" debate that is other than a misunderstanding or in the case of some anticatholics a wilful misrepresentation. Catholics dont believe in salvation by works and never have.

One problem we have is the same words are used to mean different things.

Faith. Justification and so on. The disputes between us often arise from the language.

(incidentally a good book on this - "salvation controversy" by Jimmy Akin, reviews the differences in language (and of the references to justification and salvation in past, present and future tenses, both temporal and eternal aspects) - and he concludes much of the disputes are about language.

Take faith.
It is more than just intellectual assent. As james 2:19 says - even the devils believe! (in the sense of intellectual assent)

But Faith requires cooperation not just assent. Jesus made it clear for example "by the measure you forgive, you will be forgiven" Faith requires cooperation with grace. No amount of works can save you, but no works lacks the cooperation without which faith is just assent.

And it is that "formed faith" which allowed one section of lutherans to reach a joint accord with holy see on "faith alone" if "formed faith" is the meaning, whilst the catholic church noted the use of the word "faith" in the sense that "faith alone" is true, can cause problems with understanding.

So just by ensuring we mean the same things we can start to see each others point of view..

Justification is another case. One use of that word is a once for all meaning, a different one has the lifelong process arising from cooperation. If the two parties do not agree on the meaning of the word, they will rapidly disagree on the phraseology, whilst even agreeing on the principle!

Another confusion is over the meaning of works. Jesus castigated pharisees for works of the law, not works of charity. So the meaning of the word works needs clarification.

The word "salvation" is used in different contexts to mean differnt things, and that leads to other sources of confusion. The word saved is used in past, present and future tenses in the bible, and also in both temporal and permanent aspects. Being sure which of those is meant when someone asks whether someone is "saved " is also pertinent to the question.
.
One thing is definitively true. "saythis one thing and be saved forever regardless" is not sound doctrine. But that is not "faith alone" either. Faith is formed faith, that is evidenced by cooperation.

Gideons300 said:
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · May 30, 2019

bmjackson said:
So true brother @Gideons300. I have been saying this for 15+ years on forums and have been called a heretic and many worse things lol. It has greatly encouraged me to read your writings particularly when you say this:

I had come to the conclusion that it was not going to happen in my lifetime, and anyway feel too old now due to chronic sickness, but could not understand why things have been so hard this last 18 months with such satanic attack I have never known. Please tell me why you think it wil be soon?

This:

Yes indeed it was done in the past and we are required to just believe it. Not just as a mental acknowledgement but as the basis of all of our thoughts and actions. I am dead to sin therefore I can no longer entertain it. One error being taught is that we must die to self. That is a new age concept.

Oh if only people would believe that it is that simple and give up trying to crucify themselves and just believe it.

Brother, you have no idea how wonderful it is to read your words. I so identify with what you are saying. I know the loneliness, the accusations of error and heresy. At times it would set me back, but my pendulum would always swing back to BELIEVE. Just the way when I was walking in my old nature, no matter my effort, my pendulum would always swing back to sin.

Why do I believe it is now? Hmmmmm.... good question. I think as darkness and the uncertainty it brings has increased, our Christianity has tried its best to stay the course and act as if nothing is really different. Same old sermons, same old services, and yet the hearts of His people are dry and weariness is setting in.

But their Father does not want them 'weary because of the way'. Ezekiel 36 and 37 are now in play. We have been the skeleton of the truths of Christ. We are far, far from what we were in the book of Acts, lifeless bones, but bones that possess the same DNA as our founding fathers.

God has promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church but He said nothing about getting the heck beat out of us in the process. Thank God, against all odds, He has preserved the truth for almost 2,000 years. We still have His word. We still have His promises. But what we lack is LIFE.

We are at a point now however, with the degradation of society, that we have a new generation of young people who are in danger of simply walking away. The church has become a non-factor in life. Too many temptations. Too much compromise. We have become Laocedia, with bushel basket churches thinking we have the goods when it is obvious to everyone but ourselves that we do not possess what we need to keep our heads above water, especially with younger believers.

It should be plain to us we are teetering on the edge, but when one thinks that they have all that they need, the heart blindness intensifies.

But ultimately, I believe it to be now because God told me. I realize this is like sticking a sign on my back saying "Call me a heretic", lol, and I have avoided stepping out for many years, knowing what the backlash will be.

I have been in the belly of the whale for a long time, running from the privilege of sharing the full good news to weary hearts. God finally got me tired of the stomach acid. LOL.

The time is right. Hearts are dry and ready to 'only believe'. We are officially entering the valley of decision and each one of us will have to choose... us or Him in us.

Off to work, but I would love to talk sometime. Two are better thsn one, and a three fold cord is not easily broken, amen?

Blessings to you and I am in prayer for your health.

Gideon

bmjackson · May 30, 2019

Dear brother @Gideons777

Gideons300 said:
Two are better thsn one, and a three fold cord is not easily broken, amen?

Yes Amen to that. I have been in a state of being weary after all of my attempts to help fellow believers and had withdrawn a lot. At one time all I thought about was the highway to holiness and I wrote articles and discussed it endlessly. But with no response really. I can empathise with you and even to wish to avoid the backlash. But you know what, something has been strirring so I think you might be right.

First of all I have been going through some deep emotional healing from my childhood and with my body I have recently found answers and understanding that I have a genetic connective tissue condition and there are things I can do to improve (as God has not healed me so far even though I believe He can).

And there has recently started up a fellowship group in my church that looks promising that the others might listen to me. They do recognise that I have an indepth understanding of scripture which of course we do have when we have been sanctified.

I am also greatly encouraged by you brother.

ps I am a sister.

Gideons300 · May 30, 2019

bmjackson said:
Dear brother @Gideons777

Yes Amen to that. I have been in a state of being weary after all of my attempts to help fellow believers and had withdrawn a lot. At one time all I thought about was the highway to holiness and I wrote articles and discussed it endlessly. But with no response really. I can empathise with you and even to wish to avoid the backlash. But you know what, something has been strirring so I think you might be right.

First of all I have been going through some deep emotional healing from my childhood and with my body I have recently found answers and understanding that I have a genetic connective tissue condition and there are things I can do to improve (as God has not healed me so far even though I believe He can).

And there has recently started up a fellowship group in my church that looks promising that the others might listen to me. They do recognise that I have an indepth understanding of scripture which of course we do have when we have been sanctified.

I am also greatly encouraged by you brother.

ps I am a sister.

LOL, sorry about the brother stuff. Duly noted.

I really appreciate what you have been sharing. Keep it up. I believe people are going to begin to have ears to hear.

One thing God is teaching me is that if I try to open peoples eyes by simply quoting scripture, the natural tendency is for them to counter with scriptures they understand to counter-act mime. Thus, it is still a head knowledge battle which is almost pointless.

Just recently, however, God has shown me the way to open people to the truth is to speak to their hearts. The true sheep, God's elect, may still be asleep, but inside they ARE already new creatures, and that is how I am to address them. They simply have not lit their lamps by putting them on.

A child of God may be going through the motions, lukewarm service, but the truth strangely warms them and draws them in a way that doctrinal debate cannot. It is not that doctrine is not important, it is very much so. But unless one puts of the old man, and has their minds renewed, the life found in the Word is stifled and there is no connection. Does that make sense?

As well, I am finding it much more enjoyable to share the truth with people, thinking the best, that they indeed ARE new creatures, and thus addressing them as such. The goats won't want to hear it anyway, so there is no danger of a goat slipping through the cracks of the fullness of grace.

I am convinced by the Lord that this tact will open people to the truth of who they really are inside and draw them in love to ask God for the faith to believe what the Word clearly promises... new natures that our Lord promises to cause to walk in obedience.

Perhaps this will benefit you, perhaps not, but I thought it worth sharing.

Have a great day, my dear sister.

blessings,

Gideon

Lost4words · May 30, 2019

Aquila0121 said:
I've been on both sides of the debate. I was raised in a very strict and legalistic Pentecostal tradition. When I left, I went whole hog into faith alone grace teaching. However, as with the legalism teaching, I still faced the same old weaknesses, temptations, and sinful inclinations. But then I discovered something that revolutionized my spiritual walk with Christ. It came as a result of soaking prayer. I struggle with PTSD and the quiet time of meditative surrender to the Spirit of God brings me much peace. It was during one of these soaking prayers that the LORD impressed upon me this passage...

John 15:1-11 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Then the Holy Spirit spoke to me in a still small voice, an impression if you will, saying...

"Is the vine and its branches one organism or many organisms?"

I said...

"One organism LORD."

And that's when He said...

"Know that thou art likewise."

Since then I've realized that we are one with the Lord in spirit through the abiding Holy Spirit. We are one spirit with the Lord. Branches of the true vine, living extensions of Jesus Himself.

As I approached my spiritual walk knowing that He and I are one, that He lives in me, my spiritual walk has truly become an adventure. I sense when the Lord truly wishes to speak and work through me. And in deep soaking and prayer sessions I've spoken with the Lord and this is one of the things I felt Him speak to me regarding division and holiness...

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their lists, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… and each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregational structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash on the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one mans interpretation is just as good as another's. Yet you cling to these lists because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. He who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T strive live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end.

I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by cherry picked LISTS of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things:

Did you love me with all your being?
Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself?

And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

I like.

Gideons300 · May 30, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I understand what you are saying. I really am just a Sinful man, Saved by Jesus... In Love with Jesus and offered as His Bond Servant out of a desire to be nothing but that.

I Love People, by Christ... but Brother... Know I am well to live out however many days He wills or not live, as He wills... I understand John 12:25 passionately.

I long for Jesus. I am jealous that Paul could run to the Chopping block in His name.

I’m not saying I want that, but Jesus has consumed me. I’m thankful for His Spirit, but be it by death or other... I want to be with Him above all things.

Do you mind if I do a bit of scriptural word adjusting for you?

"I really WAS a sinful man saved by Jesus because I died when He died and He has assured me that old things are passed away. Now I am the righteousness of God in Christ, and it is no more I that live, but Christ now lives in me."

Hey, after all, if the devil is in the details, how much more our God? Every jot.... every tittle.... is pure truth. Now we just have to believe it. What did Jesus say?

"Believe that you receive it and you shall have it."

Yeah, that.

Hope you had a great day,

Gideon

bmjackson · May 31, 2019

Gideons300 said:
One thing God is teaching me is that if I try to open peoples eyes by simply quoting scripture, the natural tendency is for them to counter with scriptures they understand to counter-act mime. Thus, it is still a head knowledge battle which is almost pointless.

Just recently, however, God has shown me the way to open people to the truth is to speak to their hearts.The true sheep, God's elect, may still be asleep, but inside they ARE already new creatures, and that is how I am to address them. They simply have not lit their lamps by putting them on.

I have been thinking about this and I think you are right. I also see that I have sometimes been more concerned about being right, than showing love. Thank you for this revelation brother.

Gideons300 · May 31, 2019

bmjackson said:
I have been thinking about this and I think you are right. I also see that I have sometimes been more concerned about being right, than showing love. Thank you for this revelation brother.

I am glad it blessed you. Heck, it blessed me. LOL.

God tells us to not forget all His benefits, and yet for the most part, we have never even known them to forget them. When we as His church awake and walk in all He has bought for us with His death and resurrection, we are told that the world, unimpressed by our Christianity up til now, will exclaim "Look! That which bore only briars and thorns has become again like the garden of Eden!"

Just as God told us in Ezekiel 36:

The heathen shall KNOW that Jesus is real when He shall be sanctified IN US before their very eyes.

And why? Because we have a wedding to be prepared for.

blessings,

Gideon

notreligus · May 31, 2019

Galations 6:
11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

1Corintians 1:
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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