Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Oh, okay. Thanks.
I thought you stopped talking to me because I said I am a sinner. (saved by grace)

I'm sorry if you thought I stopped talking to you. My back is badly injured, and after years of retirement I've had to go back to work to pay for out-of-pocket chiropractic treatments 3 times a week. Memorial Day weekend I spent Sat and Sun flat on my back only getting up to change ice-packs. So I haven't gotten on the computer as much as I had been. But you will always be my friend, and I yours, and really think I have things I would like you to accept in scripture.

You say you sin everyday, but ask yourself if you go to bed with anything on your conscience? I haven't for years, and I can't imagine you have things on your conscience either. There is a false teaching in the church that we sin every moment, but unless someone is not a Christian, Jesus has taken away even the desire to sin. So why sin when we don't have to? I believe most Christians believe everyone has to say we sin everyday, even when they know they don't. It is totally unscriptural when Scripture is read in context and when the scriptures about those who are not Christians get erroneously applied to Christians (like Romans 7 and 1 John 1:6,8 and 10). It's sad, when our victory is not even recognized.

BTW, you said you were a sinner saved by grace. Did you know that grace is actually correctly interpreted as the power of God? IOW even though we don't deserve it, when we repent, Jesus gives us His grace, the power of God to not sin. It is not longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for putting all that together for me. (us readers)
But none of that tells me that we have a new nature.
I think this sums up my POV pretty well.

Romans 7:14-20, 25
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. ...
25 … So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

I see you are still taking Romans 7:14-20 out of context, that talks of the sinful nature of NON-CHRISTIANS who are under the law, namely the Pharisees, which Paul had been. You keep saying you are not under the law, but are blind to the fact that this passage is clearly about those who are still under the law which we are not, and still have their sin nature which you don't, called the flesh. The whole chapter is in contrast to the next chapter on the Spirit. It is LAW vs. SPIRIT. Stop avoiding the truth and read it in contrast from Romans 7, not 14, and go through Romans 8:9. That is the context. Your not the first to get confused by starting at verse 14.

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I put my assurance in the completed work of the atonement on my behalf.
Christ did for me what I could never do for myself. I rest in his finished work.

Just to be clear, I do have a conscience and deal with whatever God is convicting me to deal with. However, I believe we sin in ways we don't even realize. As children of God we spend most of our time as snotty-nosed ragamuffins. But He still allows us to climb up in His lap. We are His kids after all.

You finally hit the nail on the head when you said "we don't even realize." Yes, those are trespasses that we commit even when walking in the Spirit, but we are not consciously sinning against God. That is the difference between willful sins of lawlessness that the old nature wants to commit which I a Christian committed them would require true repentance to receive forgiveness, vs. mere trespasses that the new nature is capable of committing that the blood of Jesus AUTOMATICALLY cleanses even without repentance (you can't repent of something you don't know about). 1 John 1:7. Trespasses that don't require repentance and Jesus automatically cleanses are what Jesus being our Advocate is about. Jesus is NOT our Advocate to automatically cleanse willful sins of lawlessness. Those are sins unto death. Trespasses are not sins unto death. 1 John 5:16-17

Saint Steven · May 30, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
What do you think is born again of the Spirit? What is it that caused us to sin if not our nature? If Jesus took away your sin, why do you say you sin everyday? Is your Jesus less powerful than my Jesus?

Now you offer reasoning instead of biblical proof. I showed you biblical proof to the contrary. And now you ask what I think?

I think you are unaware of the fallen nature we still have and wrestle with.
You think that if God is not busy convicting you of sin that you conclude that you are sinless.
He who began a good work in us will see it to completion on his timeline.
For what it is worth, that's what I think.

Below is the post you responded to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are welcome to your opinion, but you have failed to prove biblically that we are given a new nature to replace the old one.

Saint Steven · May 30, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I'm sorry if you thought I stopped talking to you. My back is badly injured, and after years of retirement I've had to go back to work to pay for out-of-pocket chiropractic treatments 3 times a week. Memorial Day weekend I spent Sat and Sun flat on my back only getting up to change ice-packs. So I haven't gotten on the computer as much as I had been. But you will always be my friend, and I yours, and really think I have things I would like you to accept in scripture.

You say you sin everyday, but ask yourself if you go to bed with anything on your conscience? I haven't for years, and I can't imagine you have things on your conscience either. There is a false teaching in the church that we sin every moment, but unless someone is not a Christian, Jesus has taken away even the desire to sin. So why sin when we don't have to? I believe most Christians believe everyone has to say we sin everyday, even when they know they don't. It is totally unscriptural when Scripture is read in context and when the scriptures about those who are not Christians get erroneously applied to Christians (like Romans 7 and 1 John 1:6,8 and 10). It's sad, when our victory is not even recognized.

BTW, you said you were a sinner saved by grace. Did you know that grace is actually correctly interpreted as the power of God? IOW even though we don't deserve it, when we repent, Jesus gives us His grace, the power of God to not sin. It is not longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

We may be in partial agreement on this.

However, whatever is not of faith is sin.
I prove that I am an unbeliever everyday when I fail to live in complete faith.
I can tell you what I believe, but I don't live like I believe it.

I can speak to the mountain, but it will not be cast into the sea.
I can use my God-given authority to pray for the sick, but they won't be healed.
Not all the time anyway. And in terms of doing greater works than Jesus did? Forget it.
Healing lepers, casting out demons, raising the dead... ? Not today.

Do I feel guilt and remorse? Nope. Is that sin too? Perhaps.

Saint Steven · May 30, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I see you are still taking Romans 7:14-20 out of context, that talks of the sinful nature of NON-CHRISTIANS who are under the law, namely the Pharisees, which Paul had been. You keep saying you are not under the law, but are blind to the fact that this passage is clearly about those who are still under the law which we are not, and still have their sin nature which you don't, called the flesh. The whole chapter is in contrast to the next chapter on the Spirit. It is LAW vs. SPIRIT. Stop avoiding the truth and read it in contrast from Romans 7, not 14, and go through Romans 8:9. That is the context. Your not the first to get confused by starting at verse 14.

I completely disagree with your take on this.

Saint Steven · May 30, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
You finally hit the nail on the head when you said "we don't even realize." Yes, those are trespasses that we commit even when walking in the Spirit, but we are not consciously sinning against God. That is the difference between willful sins of lawlessness that the old nature wants to commit which I a Christian committed them would require true repentance to receive forgiveness, vs. mere trespasses that the new nature is capable of committing that the blood of Jesus AUTOMATICALLY cleanses even without repentance (you can't repent of something you don't know about). 1 John 1:7. Trespasses that don't require repentance and Jesus automatically cleanses are what Jesus being our Advocate is about. Jesus is NOT our Advocate to automatically cleanse willful sins of lawlessness. Those are sins unto death. Trespasses are not sins unto death. 1 John 5:16-17

It seems we disagree on the definition of sin.
That explains why we don't see eye to eye on this.

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Now you offer reasoning instead of biblical proof. I showed you biblical proof to the contrary. And now you ask what I think?

I think you are unaware of the fallen nature we still have and wrestle with.
You think that if God is not busy convicting you of sin that you conclude that you are sinless.
He who began a good work in us will see it to completion on his timeline.
For what it is worth, that's what I think.

Below is the post you responded to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are welcome to your opinion, but you have failed to prove biblically that we are given a new nature to replace the old one.

Your biblical truth was out of context and untrue for a Christian.

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I completely disagree with your take on this.

Read it slowing in context, and let Scripture change your mind. It is about the LAW. We are not under the LAW, we are under the SPIRIT. You have said so yourself, but refuse to recognize it when you read it. Come on, you're smarter than that.

1stcenturylady · May 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
It seems we disagree on the definition of sin.
That explains why we don't see eye to eye on this.

The Old Testament was our schoolmaster, and spelled out how God sees things, including sin. Did you know in the Mosaic law - the whole LAW - there was not one sacrifice for the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments? They killed the one who committed that sin of lawlessness. Get it? LAWlessness. But there was sacrifice for sins committed unintentionally. That is the difference between sins of lawlessness committed on purpose and in full knowledge, and trespasses unwittingly committed. Leviticus 5:15.

If you study the Old Testament, you can understand God's view of sin. And it is His view that matters, not yours which differs from His.

Saint Steven · May 31, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Your biblical truth was out of context and untrue for a Christian.

According to you.
Your claims about Romans seven are completely unfounded. IMHO
The Apostle is obviously talking about himself. (see red highlight)

Romans 7:14-20, 25
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I

do what I

do not want to do, I

agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I

myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I

know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I

have the desire to do what is good, but I

cannot carry it out. 19 For I

do not do the good I

want to do, but the evil I

do not want to do—this I

keep on doing. 20 Now if I

do what I

do not want to do, it is no longer I

who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. ...
25 … So then, I

myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Saint Steven · May 31, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Read it slowing in context, and let Scripture change your mind. It is about the LAW. We are not under the LAW, we are under the SPIRIT. You have said so yourself, but refuse to recognize it when you read it. Come on, you're smarter than that.

I disagree for good reason. I have backed up my claims with scripture. Something you have failed to do. There is obviously more than one opinion on this subject.

Where is the scripture that talks about our new nature? Maybe this one?
This instruction is meaningless if we don't have a sin nature. (the flesh)

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Saint Steven · May 31, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
The Old Testament was our schoolmaster, and spelled out how God sees things, including sin. Did you know in the Mosaic law - the whole LAW - there was not one sacrifice for the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments? They killed the one who committed that sin of lawlessness. Get it? LAWlessness. But there was sacrifice for sins committed unintentionally. That is the difference between sins of lawlessness committed on purpose and in full knowledge, and trespasses unwittingly committed. Leviticus 5:15.

If you study the Old Testament, you can understand God's view of sin. And it is His view that matters, not yours which differs from His.

Stop speaking down to me. (belittling) This should be a collegial discussion.
And you are not the custodian of God's opinion. (you played the "God card")

God's opinion of sin? Moses was a murderer. God put him in charge.
Punishment enough, I suppose.

Maybe you didn't get the memo. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. (guardian)

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Saint Steven · May 31, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
My back is badly injured...

Sorry to hear that.

Father God,
I pray for healing and restoration of this injured back. Pain be gone in Jesus' name. Bones align properly, in Jesus' name. No pinched nerves. Give the care physician wisdom in treatment. I pray for rest and a return to strength. - Amen

JLB777 · May 31, 2019

.Mikha'el. said:
Define "keep the Sabbath".

That would be my question.

I have asked several “Sabbath Keepers”, how they keep the Sabbath, as well as how Jesus instructed His Church to keep the Sabbath, as well as the Apostles.

I usually get quotes from the law of Moses.

Or, how Paul went to a synagogue on the Sabbath, to try and reach unsaved Jews.

Maybe you can shed some light on the subject with some scriptures from the New Testament, as to how the Church is instructed to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

JLB

JLB777 · May 31, 2019

Der Alter said:
Good question. I wonder if all the non-Jewish Sabbatarians refrain from the 37 categories of work enumerated in the Talmud? I was once fostered in the home of Seventh Day Adventists. Their son had his own car. He and I were taking some young ladies home from church one Sabbath, there was some problem with the car so we went to his home and he was trying to fix the problem when his father came home. His father went ballistic and told his son to take the father's car and take the young ladies home. That was 60+ years ago I don't recall any other Sabbath related issues.
I once worked with a retired NY city police officer. When he retired he was the negotiator who worked the NYC bank robbery on which the movie "Dog Day Afternoon." was based. He once told me that when he was a young foot patrolman working in the Jewish neighborhoods it was not unusual for Jewish housewives to come down on Friday afternoons after sunset and get the Goy policeman to come up and turn off their stoves because they forgot and they couldn't even turn the stove off.

The first thing that a man must do before all else according to the commandment of God to the children of Israel, is they must be circumcised.

Passover, Sabbath keeping are moot, if the person is uncircumcised.

And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48

Then if that is done, there is to be no work at all, or be put to death.

So, to the Sabbath keepers I ask, have you been circumcised.

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-4

JLB

1stcenturylady · May 31, 2019

Saint Steven said:
According to you.
Your claims about Romans seven are completely unfounded. IMHO
The Apostle is obviously talking about himself. (see red highlight)

Romans 7:14-20, 25
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if

I
do what

I
do not want to do,

I
agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer

I
myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For

I
know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.

I
have the desire to do what is good, but

I
cannot carry it out. 19 For

I
do not do the good

I
want to do, but the evil

I
do not want to do—this

I

keep on doing. 20 Now if

I
do what

I
do not want to do, it is no longer

I
who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. ...
25 … So then,

I
myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Of course he's talking in first person - He's a Hebrew! It is a Semitic style of writing to connect with the audience who are coming out of the only thing they've known - the LAW. He had been a Pharisee so knew what he was talking about, but it doesn't mean he still was under the Law and not Spirit-filled as indeed he was.

John did the same thing in 1 John 1 using the word "we" when talking about the non-Christian Gnostics going to his church who had never repented - yet.

I KNOW I've shown this to you before. What, you have short-term memory loss? Possibly.

1stcenturylady · May 31, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I disagree for good reason. I have backed up my claims with scripture. Something you have failed to do. There is obviously more than one opinion on this subject.

Where is the scripture that talks about our new nature? Maybe this one?
This instruction is meaningless if we don't have a sin nature. (the flesh)

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

I've given you the address to the context of the Scripture. Now you just have to read it slowly and maybe a bulb will turn on in your dark stiff-necked mind

Here, I'll give it to you again! Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:9. Try and understand that it is Jesus who saves the person from the struggle of mind over carnal flesh,

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

IOW, Jesus killed the sin in the flesh, took it away, and given us His powerful sinless Spirit - the born again experience.

1stcenturylady · May 31, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Stop speaking down to me. (belittling) This should be a collegial discussion.
And you are not the custodian of God's opinion. (you played the "God card")

God's opinion of sin? Moses was a murderer. God put him in charge.
Punishment enough, I suppose.

Maybe you didn't get the memo. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. (guardian)

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Pretend Lord Byron is God, and you are one of the patrons at the pub. This is what you are doing.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

1stcenturylady · May 31, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Sorry to hear that.

Father God,
I pray for healing and restoration of this injured back. Pain be gone in Jesus' name. Bones align properly, in Jesus' name. No pinched nerves. Give the care physician wisdom in treatment. I pray for rest and a return to strength. - Amen

Thank you brother! Gotta run, I mean, hobble, to work.

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