Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

MDC said:

Our sanctification does not justify us before God. Only Christ and His merits justify

Click to expand...

Christ and His merits make the debt of sin go away. Justification and forgiveness of sins are not the same thing. Justification can't be merited even if you have infinity to the power of infinity.

Shimokita said:

Yeah this is what I think a lot of the faith alone (imputed righteousness) folks don’t get. They seem to think that we believe that our righteousness comes from ourselves, as though it were some inherent quality that we possessed beforehand, or that we are capable of making ourselves more righteous merely by our good works.

They don’t seem to get that it is God who makes us righteous by the merits won by our Lord on the cross, so that when he declares us righteous it is based on reality, rather than some fictional notion of “When I approach God he only sees Jesus”.

They seem to think that there are only two possibilities 1) the personal righteousness of Christ, and 2) our own inherent righteousness that comes from ourselves. They don’t seem to get that we can have our own personal righteousness, but one that is given to us as a gift of God.

Click to expand...

They seem to not really believe that we can do all things through Christ, Who gives us strength. Apparently holiness is something that they don't strive for because it's impossible, so why even try? I can't see how I would want to follow a God that says "I won't help you in your life to overcome sin."

Grip Docility said:

For the sake of not straining at 'semantics", and noting we have found an enormous amount of common ground thus far.. I'll say I agree.

Click to expand...

Well it ain’t like I have power to sanctify myself, unless we are talking about the shower I took this morning.

Have you read the Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification?

Shimokita said:

Well it ain’t like I have power to sanctify myself, unless we are talking about the shower I took this morning.

Have you read the Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification?

Click to expand...

I haven't read it yet. I have homework.

It almost sounds like a joke with the punchline, coming though... right?

Grip Docility said:

I make a hard line of disagreement here.

He indeed transforms us... but these bodies of death sin. You can type till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, you and I both know that we are clinging to the Cross.

He Became Righteousness, Who knew no sin, for the Unrighteous, Who were sinful.

He became Sin, to impart Righteousness to the sinful, that the Unrighteous could be counted the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Do I fear that I am unequipped to do the work He has planned for me? I do not. Do I do the work He has planned for me? I do not. He does it through me. I am merely a willing vessel to Him.

Hebrews 6:19 ; 2 Corinthians 4:7

Click to expand...

Ohhhh....So it's your BODY that sins. Your mind is just trapped inside this body that it can't control. Brock Turner didn't rape that woman behind a dumpster. His BODY is responsible for that! Hitler didn't kill millions of Jews. It was just his body that led the Nazi regime while his mind and soul were strapped in the trunk helpless to do anything.

I understand that you don't believe that God can defeat sin in your life right now, but I find that to be an utterly depressing and hopeless defeatist way of living.

Shimokita said:

He most definitely will lead and guide you.

The question is whether we will follow.

Click to expand...

We should encourage each other.
Sometimes it's necessary to tell others that they might fail one day because we're all human.

On other occasions it's better to praise God that a believer has such strong feelings against sinning and he should be encouraged for this.

We cross each bridge when we get to it...
In the meantime, the journey is very pleasant.

sculleywr said:

They seem to not really believe that we can do all things through Christ, Who gives us strength. Apparently holiness is something that they don't strive for because it's impossible, so why even try? I can't see how I would want to follow a God that says "I won't help you in your life to overcome sin."

Click to expand...

I think you see a wide range. Those who really strive for holiness, and those who effectively abuse God’s grace as a license to sin.

But here at least I can understand them I think. I have often myself found myself falling into the temptation of thinking that I am incapable of stopping this or that sin. When I expressed this thought in the confessional once the priest had to remind me that it is by the grace of God that it becomes possible. We can all forget that I think.

sculleywr said:

Ohhhh....So it's your BODY that sins. Your mind is just trapped inside this body that it can't control. Brock Turner didn't rape that woman behind a dumpster. His BODY is responsible for that! Hitler didn't kill millions of Jews. It was just his body that led the Nazi regime while his mind and soul were strapped in the trunk helpless to do anything.

I understand that you don't believe that God can defeat sin in your life right now, but I find that to be an utterly depressing and hopeless defeatist way of living.

Click to expand...

I mean this politely, but notice how I can achieve peaceful dialogue with most? But, there's a hint of snap to my tone when we discuss things.

I'm going to let your misrepresentation hang there... Also Congratulations!

Grip Docility said:

I haven't read it yet. I have homework.

It almost sounds like a joke with the punchline, coming though... right?

Click to expand...

I bet you would agree with most of it. The document helps to explain the “semantics”, the different ways in that Catholics and Lutherans express the same beliefs.

Shimokita said:

I bet you would agree with most of it. The document helps to explain the “semantics”, the different ways in that Catholics and Lutherans express the same beliefs.

Click to expand...

I hereby commit to the homework. Thank you. It'll be an exciting read. Too bad they didn't include details about the fist fights that had to have broken out!

sculleywr said:

Christ and His merits make the debt of sin go away. Justification and forgiveness of sins are not the same thing. Justification can't be merited even if you have infinity to the power of infinity.

Click to expand...

How is one justified before God then if Christ and His redeeming work did not merit it for believers? How would you interpret Romans 4:24-25

sculleywr said:

They seem to not really believe that we can do all things through Christ, Who gives us strength. Apparently holiness is something that they don't strive for because it's impossible, so why even try? I can't see how I would want to follow a God that says "I won't help you in your life to overcome sin."

Click to expand...

Who doesn’t strive for holiness that you’ve read on here? All I see are those who falsely think their works of righteousness justifies them before God

bcbsr said:

You failed to interpret that in light of Romans 3:12 where "there is no one who does good, not even one."

As I see it,

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

These are those who will partake of the first resurrection. They are guaranteed eternal life because they are under the New Covenant promise which is for those who trust in Jesus alone to save them, abandoning trusting in their works to save them. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 Of those who partake of the first resurrection it is written, "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " Rev 20:6

The resurrection of non-believers occurs after the 1000 years
Rev 20:7 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
The reference in John 5:28,29 is with regards to the second resurrection. These are judged by their works. Those good people who persisted in living a perfectly sinless life will be saved. If not, they end up in the second death. Good luck with that! Of the second resurrection it is written, "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:13-15

But, as promised in John 5:24 above, those believe Him don't come into judgement, so this judgement is not relevant to we who believe Jesus.

Click to expand...

Yes yes says the fool in his heart. I’m sure you have no idea what I’m talking about do you? Go back to the Old Testament and read Psalms 14:1-7 and Psalms 53:1-6 and you might have a clue what Paul was talking about.

bcbsr said:

You failed to interpret that in light of Romans 3:12 where "there is no one who does good, not even one."

Click to expand...

First, if you believe that Romans 3:12 and Romans 3:23 is talking about the present tense walk of believers in that they are currently sinners (in the present tense) then you must also believe that Paul is talking about how believers also currently (in the present tense) do not have any understanding and they do not seek after God, too. For it says this in Romans 3:11.


Second, Scripture testifies that they used to sin as a part of their old life. For Paul says,

2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. " (Ephesians 2:2-3).

9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you:" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

bcbsr said:

You failed to interpret that in light of Romans 3:12 where "there is no one who does good, not even one."

As I see it,

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

These are those who will partake of the first resurrection. They are guaranteed eternal life because they are under the New Covenant promise which is for those who trust in Jesus alone to save them, abandoning trusting in their works to save them. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 Of those who partake of the first resurrection it is written, "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " Rev 20:6

The resurrection of non-believers occurs after the 1000 years
Rev 20:7 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
The reference in John 5:28,29 is with regards to the second resurrection. These are judged by their works. Those good people who persisted in living a perfectly sinless life will be saved. If not, they end up in the second death. Good luck with that! Of the second resurrection it is written, "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:13-15

But, as promised in John 5:24 above, those believe Him don't come into judgement, so this judgement is not relevant to we who believe Jesus.

Click to expand...

What does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20? In Romans 5 all Paul is saying is that we are justified (made right with God) by faith not by works. I have never refuted that at all. In fact I’ve said that several times. This still doesn’t refute the fact the The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit and casts them away to wither then casts them into the fire to be burned. This is a clear example that justification does not guarantee salvation. If justification guaranteed salvation then no one who is in Christ could be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire.

bcbsr said:

You might want to interpret Paul in light of Paul.

Rom 3:
9 We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Notice Paul's point is that ALL are under sin. He applies those verses to ALL. Now you can claim that Paul was wrong in applying those verses to ALL, but that what he does. And his point being that justification based upon a person's compliance to law is not going to work. No one would be qualified to be saved. Do you think you would qualify? Good luck with that!

Notice where he goes from there:

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

No reference to a person having to be good or live up to some "law" to qualify. It's free.

Admittedly you and the other salvation by works Christian on this thread don't believe that. But that's the way it is.

Click to expand...

Also, before you stated that believers do not characteristically sin. In fact, you quote 1 John 3:9 that says that he that is born of God does not continue in sin. So what does this mean to you? How can Romans 3:12, and Romans 3:23 be referring to the present tense walk of the believer if a believer is not abiding in sin 24/7? How does 1 John 3:9 mean "not continue in sin" if you also believe that a Christian has sinfulness as per 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:12, and Romans 3:23? This is why Belief Alone-ism is doomed to being like a device that has a built in self destruct sequence. It just doesn't work, my friend.

bcbsr said:

You failed to interpret that in light of Romans 3:12 where "there is no one who does good, not even one."

As I see it,

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

These are those who will partake of the first resurrection. They are guaranteed eternal life because they are under the New Covenant promise which is for those who trust in Jesus alone to save them, abandoning trusting in their works to save them. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 Of those who partake of the first resurrection it is written, "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " Rev 20:6

The resurrection of non-believers occurs after the 1000 years
Rev 20:7 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
The reference in John 5:28,29 is with regards to the second resurrection. These are judged by their works. Those good people who persisted in living a perfectly sinless life will be saved. If not, they end up in the second death. Good luck with that! Of the second resurrection it is written, "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:13-15

But, as promised in John 5:24 above, those believe Him don't come into judgement, so this judgement is not relevant to we who believe Jesus.

Click to expand...

As for John 5:24:

The words, "he who hears my word" is talking about obedience to God's Word, just as it does in John 8:47. For in the discussion leading up to John 8:47, Jesus is criticizing the Jews for their doing their works of their father, i.e. the devil.

BNR32FAN said:

What does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20? In Romans 5 all Paul is saying is that we are justified (made right with God) by faith not by works. I have never refuted that at all. In fact I’ve said that several times. This still doesn’t refute the fact the The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit and casts them away to wither then casts them into the fire to be burned. This is a clear example that justification does not guarantee salvation. If justification guaranteed salvation then no one who is in Christ could be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire.

Click to expand...

What guarantees salvation then?