LDS Is faith a DIY achievement?

Grace is the gift (Ephesians 2:8, John 3:16); Not faith.
Granted, the Bible is how we have our faith (Romans 10:17).
So in a way the Bible is like a gift, but we do have to act upon what the Bible says in order for the gift of God's grace to take effect upon our life. God is not going to save us against our own free will.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

After we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, works of faith are also required as a part of the salvation process.

For the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

For Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16); And Jesus says that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We are told in Scripture to "continue in the faith." (Colossians 1:23). So yes, I do see "faith" as something we must exercise. God is not going to believe for us. For without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

REMINDER:

• Debates are only between orthodox Christian members and members of the specific non-Christian religion or faith being challenged.

...Except, Jason pretty well nailed the counter: faith *is* action, as it requires a person to modify their mindset and behavior accordingly.

Phoebe Ann said:

How does a person create his own faith?

Faith is a gift View attachment 257295 of God, not something that a person can create. The beauty of that gift is that we love and adore God for the gift. We can't say, "I'm better than all those people who don't even attend church." We rely on God for everything and we are filled with awe every day.

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.
Why is faith without works dead?

God NEVER gives people dead faith! But a lot of people pretend to have faith (for various reasons).

Living our faith and trusting the One Who gave it strengthens that living faith! View attachment 257292

Unfortunately Mormonism teaches that faith and other blessings must be earned:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.20

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Jesus often condemned people for their lack of faith and complimented people for their faith. Here is part of the chapter of what the Bible says about faith. I won't post the whole chapter so I invite all to read it:

(New Testament | Hebrews 11:1 - 6)

1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Phoebe Ann said:

How does a person create his own faith?

Faith is a gift View attachment 257295 of God, not something that a person can create. The beauty of that gift is that we love and adore God for the gift. We can't say, "I'm better than all those people who don't even attend church." We rely on God for everything and we are filled with awe every day.

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.
Why is faith without works dead?

God NEVER gives people dead faith! But a lot of people pretend to have faith (for various reasons).

Living our faith and trusting the One Who gave it strengthens that living faith! View attachment 257292

Unfortunately Mormonism teaches that faith and other blessings must be earned:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.20

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In the same notion, how does a person create their own salvation? Is salvation a DIY thing? Does a person tell God they are saved or does God make that decision? When a person states that they are saved, have they become supervisors to God? The Bible states that only those who endure to the end will be saved:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I know that God and only God will decide who will be saved.

He is the way said:

In the same notion, how does a person create their own salvation? Is salvation a DIY thing? Does a person tell God they are saved or does God make that decision? When a person states that they are saved, have they become supervisors to God? The Bible states that only those who endure to the end will be saved:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I know that God and only God will decide who will be saved.

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What is the context of this verse? What "end" is in view?
Yanking verses out of context can prove anything.

Phoebe Ann said:

View attachment 257399

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Cherry picking the scriptures again. Try reading the context of the scriptures:

(New Testament | John 5:21 - 29)

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

drstevej said:

Yanking verses out of context can prove anything.

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So true. These out of context verses could prove that Jesus wants us to hand ourselves.

As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” (John 13:27)
Then he went away and hanged himself. (Mat 27:5b)
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:37b)

Disclaimer: Jesus does not want us to hang ourselves!

He is the way said:

Cherry picking the scriptures again. Try reading the context of the scriptures:

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How cute that you are giving lessons on cherry picking and the context of Scripture. When read in context, many lds beliefs and practices go away (i.e., baptism for the dead, multiple levels of heaven, priesthoods, etc.).

Pot, meet kettle...

drstevej said:

What is the context of this verse? What "end" is in view?
Yanking verses out of context can prove anything.

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So let us look at the context:

(New Testament | Matthew 10:21 - 24)

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

(New Testament | Matthew 24:7 - 15)

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

(New Testament | Mark 13:11 - 14)

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Looks like death is the end.

That doesn't fit this....

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

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Who are the false prophets mentioned, has the gospel been preached in ALL of the World? The end in this text is a singular event not every time someone croaks.

drstevej said:

That doesn't fit this....



Who are the false prophets mentioned, has the gospel been preached in ALL of the World? The end in this text is a singular event not every time someone croaks.

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Good observation, perhaps the end is the final judgement as the gospel is also preached to those who are dead. I do believe that we can't tell God who will be saved and who won't. We should not believe in God in an advisory capacity. He will decide who is worthy and who is not.

Phoebe Ann says:

God NEVER gives people dead faith! But a lot of people pretend to have faith (for various reasons).

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OK, but then you say this:

Living our faith and trusting the One Who gave it strengthens that living faith! View attachment 257292

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So does God give a weak kind of faith that needs to be strengthened? Why not a gift of full blown 100% faith? I mean, if the Lord is giving you this gift, why give a weak gift that you have to live your faith and trust the One who gave it so the weaker faith can be strengthened into a 100% living faith?

This is what the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS teaches. We believe that the Holy Spirit does teach you that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God and that he was crucified to save you from your sins. He was raised from the dead, and sits with his God and Father in heaven today, awaiting his second coming.

With this great witness from the Holy Spirit, God has given you a gift of a budding faith. Now, the journey really begins. As you said, "Living our faith and trusting the One Who gave it , strengthens that living faith."

What that says to me, if you receive a gift of faith from the Lord, and do not live your faith and do not trust in the One that gave it, and you do not strengthen that faith, you will lose it, and the budding faith that was gifted to you may become a dead faith.

Any way, we are close in our beliefs about strengthening our faith. Thank you.

Phoebe Ann said:

Who strenthens their own faith that wasn't self-manuafactured? Not I.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Who gave me living faith? Not I.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Who hears the word of God and believes it? Not everyone!

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We are no longer ruled by Satan, but we are ruled by the Spirit. Christ set us free.

Romans 7
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8 describes the work that God begins and brings to completion:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

WE LOVE GOD!

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You have a hard time understanding the partnership between you and the Lord.

Here is how it works:
1) a person comes in contact with a person who is a Christian. The Holy Spirit starts right then and there to influence this person to come to God and believe in God.
2) the person responds to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and asked God in prayer if Jesus is the Savior of all mankind?
3) the Holy Spirit then witnesses stronger that what this person is asking is true, and the asking person begins to believe and feel the power of God in their life.

Notice that the partnership has started. A person has been told about Jesus and has responded. This response was met by a visit from the Holy Spirit. If the person responds, the Lord keeps responding in a more powerful way.
4) the person now want to be clean of all their past sins and wants to be a new person, so they are baptized and the Holy Spirit becomes a permanent resident, continuing to influence the person to now follow Jesus. A budding faith is starting to go into action.
5) the person responds to the influence of the Holy Spirit and so in their life they find that they are kinder, and more friendly, and willing to help those in need of help.
6) these kinds of activities increase the faith of the person and God through the Holy Spirit strengthens their joy and their commitments to be a new person.

Notice the partnership is growing stronger. As the person responds to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, their faith is increased and strengthened, just like the scriptures say.

This partnership will lead to a great amount of fruit being brought into the kingdom of God and the person being allowed by the grace of God to live with Him and Jesus forever and ever.

As you can see this person is not a robot of the Lord, but is a partner with the Lord. The Lord did not do everything to make sure this person received eternal life, and the person obviously can not do everything to have eternal life, so the Lord has to step in and with his grace give this person eternal life.

God is not looking for robots for his kingdom, he is looking for partners to be heirs with Jesus in all that he has. It will be a glorious day when God says to us, "well done my good and faithful servant, welcome into the day of your rest". (I paraphrase)

Phoebe Ann says:

Colossians 1
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

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Paul is praying unceasingly that the people he converted to Jesus Christ will:
1) walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing (that means we do things that please God)
2) being fruitful in every good work (that is shocking coming from Paul who says that it is by grace, not of works...)
3) increasing in the knowledge of God
4) Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness.

Do you see the pattern. Do things that please God. Be fruitful in all good works. Increase your knowledge of God. AND THEN GOD WILL STRENGTHEN YOU ACCORDING TO HIS GLORIOUS POWER, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness.

AND THEN HE WILL MAKE US MEET TO BE PARTAKERS OF THE INHERITANCE OF THE SAINTS IN LIGHT.

What happens if you do not walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing?
What happens if you are not fruitful in every good work?
What happens if you do not increase in knowledge of God?

Remember Paul prays every day that his people will do these things. And there is plenty of proof that many of them did not do these things, hence many statements from him that his people are not living like they should.

What happens when we do not these things? Do you lose your salvation or does Jesus look beyond your sins and laziness and your not pleasing God (vs 10), and still save you?

If this is the case why does Paul pray daily for these things?