BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

Guojing said:
Do you agree in the first place that sin cannot be imputed to a Christian?

Sin is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4. If we break any one of Gods 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. If we repent and confess our sins JESUS is faithful to forgive us for our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is sin *1 JOHN 3:3-10. Those who do not know God and who are the children of the devil practice sin *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 1 JOHN 3:9. You shall know them by their fruit *MATTHEW 7:16-23.

bcbsr · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Not at all. Only posting that there is no such thing as eternal security as shown in the scriptures in the OP . Happy to look at your scriptures to see if they say that a BELIEVER cannot depart from God and become an unbeliever as it states in the OP if you like?

Love the scriptures here and I believe them. Sadly they do not support your interpretation of them. Your argument here is the a "BELIEVER" once saved cannot be lost or unsaved. The scriptures here say no such thing. Notice that the promises here a CONDITIONAL in relation to "US" which is in reference to "BELIEVERS" in the "PRESENT TENSE". These scriptures are in reference to "BELIEVERS" that are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. They do not say a BELIEVER cannot depart from God's WORD. They say that no one can separate God's LOVE from BELIEVERS not someone that has fallen away from the truth of God's WORD to become an UNBELIEVER.

Nope! No where God's WORD does it state anywhere that believers do not FALL AWAY. In fact we read that BELIEVERS can indeed fall away and we as Christians are WARNED in God's WORD not to.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:20-22
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

links to....

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

................

CONCLUSION: We can GREIVE God's Spirit if we continue in known unrepentant sin and he will depart from us and leave us over to strong delusions if we do not receive and love the truth.

Now where in the scripture you quoted above in 1 JOHN 2:19 does it say a Christian is once saved always saved and cannot fall away? It doesn't does it? Let's look at your foundation scripture that you interpret to support once saved always saved in detail as the scripture you provide here only support all the othere provided above warning God's poeple not to fall away and depart from the faith...

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. It was going out and leaving the truth that made these people not of us as leaving God's truth made them "UNBELIEVERS". The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word). If they contunued with us then they would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us.

Once agian love the scriptures and I believe them. Sadly they do not support your interpretation of them suggesting and application of once saved always saved or a "BELIEVER" once saved cannot be lost and turn away from God and be unsaved. The scriptures here say no such thing.

The application here is to "BELIEVERS" in the "PRESENT TENSE". These scriptures are in reference to "BELIEVERS" that are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. They do not say a BELIEVER cannot depart from God's WORD now do they.

...........

Sorry brother you have not provided a single scripture that supports once saved always saved. According to God's WORD it is only he who endures to the end that will be saved *MATTHEW 10:22. Seems many are going to be disappointed come judgment day.

Hope this helps.

Many of such verses you misconstrue. The "Once Saved" doesn't actually apply to many such cases. For many have not actually come to believe the gospel Like there are many on these forums who, much like the sect of the Circumcision of whom Paul classifies as "false brethren" in Gal 2:4, are trusting not in Christ but rather in their performance, living up to a "law" in order to be saved. Some verses you show you don't distinguish between Old Covenant and New. I cover a number of ways in which salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture in my other thread Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
Many of such verses you misconstrue. The "Once Saved" doesn't actually apply to many such cases. For many have not actually come to believe the gospel Like there are many on these forums who, much like the sect of the Circumcision of whom Paul classifies as "false brethren" in Gal 2:4, are trusting not in Christ but rather in their performance, living up to a "law" in order to be saved. Some verses you show you don't distinguish between Old Covenant and New. I cover a number of ways in which salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture in my other thread Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Not at all. You were shown through both the scriptures in the OP and looking in detail at each of the scriptures you quoted that you claim teach once saved always saved were not saying what you were claiming they were. You were also shown scripture showing believers falling away from God's WORD and elsewhere examples of those who did so. Your words you post are your words not God's. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

Danthemailman · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
Many of such verses you misconstrue. The "Once Saved" doesn't actually apply to many such cases. For many have not actually come to believe the gospel Like there are many on these forums who, much like the sect of the Circumcision of whom Paul classifies as "false brethren" in Gal 2:4, are trusting not in Christ but rather in their performance, living up to a "law" in order to be saved. Some verses you show you don't distinguish between Old Covenant and New. I cover a number of ways in which salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture in my other thread Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Excellent post and spot on! :oldthumbsup:

bcbsr · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Not at all. You were shown through both the scriptures in the OP and looking in detail at each of the scriptures you quoted that you claim teach once saved always saved were not saying what you were claiming they were. Your words you post are your words not God's. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

As I see it your misinterpretation does not constitute the Word of God. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:5,6

Guojing · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Sin is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4. If we break any one of Gods 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. If we repent and confess our sins JESUS is faithful to forgive us for our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is sin *1 JOHN 3:3-10. Those who do not know God and who are the children of the devil practice sin *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 1 JOHN 3:9. You shall know them by their fruit *MATTHEW 7:16-23.

I have already stated that my argument has the following 2 premises

A Christian is under grace and not under Law Romans 6:14
Sin cannot be imputed to a person not under Law Romans 5:12-13

Which premise do you disagree with? One or both?

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
As I see it your misinterpretation does not constitute the Word of God. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:5,6

Not sure what your scripture reference has to do with what as have been talking about right now. As I agree there is nothing that we can do of ourselves to save ourselves, it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. If we both agree then what is your argument? You have none do you. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Sorry brother but there is no such teaching in God's WORD that says once saved always saved. It is only he that endures temptation to the end that receives eternal life *JAMES 1:12. Many are called but few are chosen. We will have to agree to disagree.

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Sin is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4. If we break any one of Gods 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. If we repent and confess our sins JESUS is faithful to forgive us for our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is sin *1 JOHN 3:3-10. Those who do not know God and who are the children of the devil practice sin *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 1 JOHN 3:9. You shall know them by their fruit *MATTHEW 7:16-23.

Your response..

Guojing said:
I have already stated that my argument has the following 2 premises

A Christian is under grace and not under Law Romans 6:14
Sin cannot be imputed to a person not under Law Romans 5:12-13

Which premise do you disagree with? One or both?

What does the post you are quoting from say?

Guojing · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response..

What does the post you are quoting from say?

So if you disagree with both of my premises, then it is clear why you will not consider that a counter argument. The challenge is to accept the premises and still reject the conclusion.

Notice the scripture you used, none of them is from the Apostle Paul? You are a Gentile Christian right?

Maria Billingsley · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us? If YES then how? If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE). Some thoughts from the scriptures below for consideration.

We are born again in order to come into the Kingdom of God. It is a gift given to those who believe, repent and live for the Lord. We become born of water and Spirit. Once regenerated we continue to walk with the Holy Spirit in our lives. We must stay the course and be faithfully discerning. If we do not walk in the Spirit, follow false teachings,veer from the course and sin without repentance He will say "I never knew you". The flesh is very powerful which is why we must walk in the Spirit daily. It is not that the Spirit of God leaves us, it is we who leave Him.

Hebrews
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

aiki · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello brother aiki, nice to see you. I think I will post the complete section of my post as you are only part quoting what was provided. It is probably more like you are gross misrepresenting what was posted earlier which is provided below for reference. Or maybe you did not read what I posted earlier correctly.

No, it is that much of what you write is extraneous or irrelevant. I posted those parts of what you wrote that most clearly indicated your purpose and then responded to them.

LoveGodsWord said:
LGW wrote: Let's start with an interesting view on Ephesians 4:30 which I believe can have many complimentary (not contradictory) applications not just the one below (It is God's Word after all)

What you believe is irrelevant to what the verse actually says and means. As I already pointed out in my last post, your complementary (not complimentary) applications are not supported by the verse you're citing here.

LoveGodsWord said:
Note; the Greek word used in this warning for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō to stamp as a private mark for security or preservation. It does not mean that God's Spirit cannot leave or depart us.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Simply saying that "sealed" doesn't mean God's Spirit cannot leave or depart a Christian doesn't make it so. The clear implication of the phrase "sealed for" is that of being reserved unto, being set apart for, a yet-to-occur purpose or moment. The word "for" indicates a future event is in view, not a past event like the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our redemption. And this is, as I pointed out, made more certain by what Paul had already written earlier in his letter to the Ephesian believers.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That word "until" makes it clear that Paul was thinking of a future event when he wrote of the "redemption of the purchased possession," not the redemption already accomplished at Calvary. Your idea, then, that there is this extra "complementary application" regarding the redemption of believers at Calvary is a false extrapolation born of your desire to dissolve the serious problem Ephesian 4:30 gives to your saved-and-lost doctrine.

LoveGodsWord said:
The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

This has direct reference to the cross and the ransom JESUS paid for out sins at Calvery (day of redemption). It also has reference to the 2nd coming but let's focus on the literal Greek meaning here for a minute as we cannot have the one without the other. The Greek word REDEMPTION used here means; the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

It is entirely false that Paul meant both the spiritual redemption of the believer at Calvary and the future redemption (or glorification) of his body at the Final Resurrection. It is quite plain that Paul was referring only to the latter event, not the former (see above). He mentioned this redemption in his letter to the Romans, too, but explained to them his meaning more exactly:

Romans 8:21-23 (NKJV)
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Thus, it is confirmed that Paul is looking forward to a future event, not a past one, in his remark in Ephesians 4:30, namely the glorification (redemption) of the believer's body at the Final Resurrection.

LoveGodsWord said:
The meaning here has the implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the cross which is the day of redemption which is the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only begotten son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

You are conflating two distinct and separate things: the spiritual redemption of the believer and the redemption (or glorification) of their body at the Second Coming. While these things are related, they are not interchangeable as you are insisting they are here. You are adding an entirely unintended dimension to Paul's words by forcing the term "redemption" in Ephesians 4:30 to refer to Calvary as well as the Second Coming.

LoveGodsWord said:
An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins

Again, this is simply false. As I've already explained above, Paul did not have this thinking in mind when he wrote Ephesians 4:30. You are forcing this interpretation on his words, twisting his meaning in order to diminish it.

LoveGodsWord said:
I am not saying that what was posted earlier was not to the 2nd coming when I posted it's application is to the 2nd coming. I was simply giving a complimentary view of the Greek word used for REDEMPTION (JESUS paying the price in full for our redemption) which are what BELIEVERS are sealed to and it's application to the 2nd coming.

If you'll read more carefully what I wrote, you'll see I never asserted that you had denied that Paul was referring to the Second Coming in Ephesians 4:30. No, all I did was demonstrate the falsity of your idea about "redemption" encompassing Calvary in the verse.

LoveGodsWord said:
The Greek word meaning used here for TO/UNTO/FOR is εἰς; eis (G1519) which means; A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.)

This is irrelevant since Paul indicates very plainly that he had a future event in view. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:
We are SEALED because of what JESUS did paying our ransom with His life for our sins! It is those who are sealed through faith in the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance that receive eternal life at the second coming.

No, the one who believes in Christ as Saviour, as the One who redeemed them from the eternal penalty of their sins, receives eternal life the moment they believe, not at the Second Coming. Over and over again in Scirpture, salvation and its effects are referred to in such a way as to indicate that they are already the possession of the genuine born-again believer.

1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11 (NKJV)
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV)
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

And so on. Salvation is a done deal for the one who has trusted in Christ as Saviour and Lord. And such an one may look forward to the redemption of their body unto which time they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, the "downpayment of their future heavenly inheritance in Christ.

LoveGodsWord said:
Sin is defined in God's WORD as the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20 and "UNBELIEF" that all sin is tied to *ROMANS 14:23. Sin separates us from God's presence so that he will not hear us.

So? The record of Scripture is clear: While the Israelites missed out on the blessing of the Promised Land, they were not rejected by God. As the last several chapters of the Book of Numbers describes, God continued to sustain and protect His Chosen People in the wilderness. What, then, of your idea that they are a picture of salvation-lost? It just doesn't hold water.

LoveGodsWord said:
Your forgetting again that it is only those who BELIEVED and FOLLOWED the WORD of GOD that God did not abandon.

This isn't what the record of Scripture concerning the unbelieving Israelites indicates.

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 3:10-19 [10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. [12], Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end; [15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. [16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. [17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

No where in this passage is it anywhere stated that the Israelites were utterly rejected by God or that the believer should fear such a fate should they doubt. Just as unbelief kept the Israelites from the blessing of the land of Canaan, unbelief keeps the Christian from the blessing of all that is theirs in Christ. But losing out on such blessing does not equate to the loss of one's salvation. That is an interpretation you must force upon the passage.

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that one is not always true as can be demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 which is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS and departed from the faith.

I disagree. Both passages bear out the false convert view, not the lost-salvation view.

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setst777 · May 30, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello all,

If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us? If YES then how? If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE). Some thoughts from the scriptures below for consideration.

...............

Let's start with an interesting view on Ephesians 4:30 which I believe can have many complimentary (not contradictory) applications not just the one below (It is God's Word after all)

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, in whom ye were SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Note; the Greek word used in this warning for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō to stamp as a private mark for security or preservation. It does not mean that God's Spirit cannot leave or depart us.

So the meaning applied here is that the Holy Spirit is given to BELIEVERS as a sign of preservation or mark in the "present tense".

Note here also that the scripture tells us that we are SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEPTION. Or the Holy Spirit SEALS BELIEVERS TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!

The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

This has direct reference to the cross and the ransom JESUS paid for out sins at Calvery (day of redemption). It also has reference to the 2nd coming but let's focus on the literal Greek meaning here for a minute as we cannot have the one without the other. The Greek word REDEMPTION used here means; the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

The meaning here has the implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the cross which is the day of redemption which is the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only begotten son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins; paid the price of our sins and died the death that we deserve to die so that we can be reconciled to God not to die for our sins; we have been redeemed from our sins; saved from our sins through FAITH to be called the sons and daughters of God.

The application of the scriptures here meaning that the HOLY SPIRIT leads BELIEVERS and SEALS them to the cross of JESUS so that whosever believes in the gift of God's dear son should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16.

..............

Now let's link the above scripture in EPHESIANS 4:30 with the WARNINGS from God's WORD not to GRIEVE God's Spirit and what is the results or outcome of GRIEVING God's Spirit?

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.

HEBREWS 3:17 [17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

PSALMS 95:10-11 [10], Forty years long was I GRIEVED with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

HEBREWS 3:10-11; 17-19 [10], Why I was GRIEVED with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

[17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

PSALMS 119:158 [158], I BEHELD THE TRANSGRESSORS AND WAS GRIEVED; because they kept not your word.

GOD is GRIEVED by SIN and the wages of sin is death in all those who reject the gift of God's dear son...

GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents me that I have made them.

.....................

IF WE DO NOT REPENT FROM KNOWN SIN WE DO NOT HAVE GOD'S SPIRIT or FORGIVENESS

ACT 2:38 [38], Then Peter said to them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTISED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

ACT 3:19 [19], REPENT YOU THEREFORE AND BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED OUT, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

ACT 8:22 [22], REPENT THEREFORE OF THIS YOUR WICKEDNESS, AND PRAY GOD, IF PERHAPS THE THOUGHT OF YOUR HEART MAY BE FORGIVEN YOU.

ACT 17:30 [30], And the TIMES OF IGNORANCE GOD WINKED AT; BUT NOW CALLS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.

............

ACT 26:20 [20], But showed first to them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that THEY SHOULD REPENT AND TURN TO GOD AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE.

...........

KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN GRIEVES GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT and will keep all those who CONTINUE in it OUT of God's KINGDOM just like it was in the days of NOAH so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:37-39).

...........

If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us?

If YES than how?

If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE).

Thanks for sharing.

God bless

Hi LoveGodsWord,

Greetings and Blessings to you Brother

I have read your responses to the other posters. Your faith is true to the Lord, and you possess His Spirit, and your responses bear this out. The Lord God sees your bravery in the face of wild lions who open their mouths against you.

Regarding the wild lions, I realize that even Christians are answering you without proper understanding. Therefore, I appreciate your patience and love as you respond to them. 1 Peter 3:13-17

Israel who offered sacrifices for their sins while continuing to dishonor God by sinning was a stench to God. . .

So too, God will hold those who claim to be Christian accountable to Him for treating the sacrifice of His Son for them as something unholy, as though sanctifying their lives unto Him by walking by His Spirit is not required for Salvation, that they can still sin, claim forgiveness, and be saved because of the blood of Christ.

Romans 6
Galatians 5:13-26
1 Corinthians 6:7-11
2 Timothy 2:19-21
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
Colossians 3:1-12
Hebrews 12:14-15
1 Peter 1:13-18

Sanctification is God's work in those who, by faith, walk by God's Spirit. This is a command of God to all those who believe. This is not optional; rather, this IS the salvation God offers us in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8
Galatians 6:7-9

A true believer should never think to ever sin, but live holy loves onto God (1 Peter 1:13-18) – lives that radiate the Love of God. And if such holy ones do sin in weakness, then God is faithful to forgive them as they continue living in Holiness to God their Father by faith and His Spirit.

No reason exists for any Christian to think being victorious over sins control is impossible. Christ Jesus already conquered Satan and His power over us. Christ Jesus already conquered sin and death. So how can anyone claiming the name of Christ still live as defeated victims of sin?

Does not the Spirit of God indwell us by faith?
Does not the Holy Spirit in us set us free from sin?

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Regarding your questions as follows:
<<
If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us?

If YES than how?
>>

setst RE:
Before I answer definitively, I feel I must set the stage properly to do justice to those questions.

The faith that God expects of us, according to the Gospel of Christ, involves:

Repentance: a commitment to turn from our life of slavery to the selfish ambition of our sinful natures as part of this world (Acts 26:20), and then,
A commitment to follow our rightful Lord and Master Jesus Christ, listening to and following Him into a life of Love and service (Luke 9:23-25)..

This is the only faith by which we receive the Holy Spirit and His regenerating Power to free us from sins power over our lives (Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23), but only as the believer continues in faithfulness to walk by the Spirit God causes to indwell us by faith. . .

Speaking to those already saved, who already have the Spirit of Christ, Paul teaches that the believer is to faithfully walk by the Spirit they received to possess life: Luke 9:23-25

Romans 8 (WEB) Bolding mine
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The Free Gift of God's Grace

This faith does not earn our salvation. Rather,

God chooses to graciously credit the righteousness of Christ to our accounts by this Gospel Faith.
God chooses to reward our faithfulness until the end (listening to and following Him) with the Crown of Life.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

We don't deserve this great salvation from God; rather, God chooses to grant us the free gift of His salvation to all those who repent and believe in His Son, listening to and following Him to the end. That is the Gospel.

Now, in answer to your questions.

<<
If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us?

If YES than how?
>>

My understanding is that once you receive the Spirit by faith, the Spirit of God remains in you.

However, as Scriptures states, those who received the Spirit by faith are under greater judgment for failing to live by His Spirit then those who never experienced the saving grace of God.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Therefore,

God will not be mocked.
Do not be deceived.

Yes, God gives the believer His Spirit to dwell in them. But do not forget that when the Spirit of God dwells in you, God Himself is dwelling in you.

So, when you grieve and insult the Spirit of Grace,
you are grieving and insulting God. You insult God

You insult God when you think you can sin, and then claim forgiveness, as if living sanctified holy lives onto God were optional.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.

The only acceptable worship that God accepts from those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,

to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
holy and pleasing to God—
this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

Guojing said:
So if you disagree with both of my premises, then it is clear why you will not consider that a counter argument. The challenge is to accept the premises and still reject the conclusion.

Notice the scripture you used, none of them is from the Apostle Paul? You are a Gentile Christian right?

Why do you claim I disagree with both of your premises when I have said nothing about them and have only asked you what does the post and scriptures provided to you mean? If you do not know what they mean just say so.

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
We are born again in order to come into the Kingdom of God. It is a gift given to those who believe, repent and live for the Lord. We become born of water and Spirit. Once regenerated we continue to walk with the Holy Spirit in our lives. We must stay the course and be faithfully discerning. If we do not walk in the Spirit, follow false teachings,veer from the course and sin without repentance He will say "I never knew you". The flesh is very powerful which is why we must walk in the Spirit daily. It is not that the Spirit of God leaves us, it is we who leave Him.

Hebrews
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Great post sister Maria, thanks for sharing your thoughts and the scriptures with us.

God bless

Presbyterian Continuist · May 30, 2019

Guojing said:
I have already stated that my argument has the following 2 premises

A Christian is under grace and not under Law Romans 6:14
Sin cannot be imputed to a person not under Law Romans 5:12-13

Which premise do you disagree with? One or both?

My view is that performance-based Christians have an attitude of fear that if they just stop trying to perform, they will fall away into sin and end up in hell. So they do their best to live by the Law as they perceive it. But they still have uncertainty because they know that they are not keeping the Law perfectly, as no one can. If they are challenged, they will say they are not trying to keep the Law, but they are living by "the Word of God" or "the commandments of Christ"; but whatever they call it, they are self-orientated and judge themselves on their performance instead of resting in Christ for the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in them.

The fact is, they have a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-eyed view of God. The God of their imagination is not the God of the Bible. Their imaginary God may have "saved" them, but is now monitoring them to ensure that they are behaving themselves every day. What they are trying to do is to "pay" God for His salvation with their good works, when in reality, Jesus has already paid the full price when He died on the cross.

The trust is that the God of the Bible is almighty. The gospel of Christ is not only the power of God to lead us to salvation, that "by grace we are saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God", but it is the power of almighty God to keep us walking in the Spirit.

Conversion to Christ is not only a change of direction in our attitude to Christ, but it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and He is the One who is working in us to transform our minds to conform to the image of Christ. As we rest on Christ in faith, this releases the Holy Spirit in us to do the work of sanctification and to keep us in the way of righteousness all the way to glory.

But the performance-based Christian cannot rest in Christ, and through his self-effort, the Holy Spirit is quenched within him, and cannot do the Work he wants to do, so the performance-based Christian is more likely to fall away than the one who is resting in Christ by faith - whose God is the God of the Bible, and is all-powerful, well able to keep those who trust in Him walking in the Spirit without falling away.

setst777 · May 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
My view is that performance-based Christians have an attitude of fear that if they just stop trying to perform, they will fall away into sin and end up in hell. So they do their best to live by the Law as they perceive it. But they still have uncertainty because they know that they are not keeping the Law perfectly, as no one can. If they are challenged, they will say they are not trying to keep the Law, but they are living by "the Word of God" or "the commandments of Christ"; but whatever they call it, they are self-orientated and judge themselves on their performance instead of resting in Christ for the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in them.

The fact is, they have a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-eyed view of God. The God of their imagination is not the God of the Bible. Their imaginary God may have "saved" them, but is now monitoring them to ensure that they are behaving themselves every day. What they are trying to do is to "pay" God for His salvation with their good works, when in reality, Jesus has already paid the full price when He died on the cross.

The trust is that the God of the Bible is almighty. The gospel of Christ is not only the power of God to lead us to salvation, that "by grace we are saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God", but it is the power of almighty God to keep us walking in the Spirit.

Conversion to Christ is not only a change of direction in our attitude to Christ, but it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and He is the One who is working in us to transform our minds to conform to the image of Christ. As we rest on Christ in faith, this releases the Holy Spirit in us to do the work of sanctification and to keep us in the way of righteousness all the way to glory.

But the performance-based Christian cannot rest in Christ, and through his self-effort, the Holy Spirit is quenched within him, and cannot do the Work he wants to do, so the performance-based Christian is more likely to fall away than the one who is resting in Christ by faith - whose God is the God of the Bible, and is all-powerful, well able to keep those who trust in Him walking in the Spirit without falling away.

You misunderstand the Scriptures and the Gospel. Salvation is never performance based as if your works could justify you.

Neither LoveGodsWord, nor any Christian on this board that I am aware, of believes that salvation is performance based. So your argument and disagreement is a red hearing.

All true Christians believe just as the Gospel teaches - that true faith involves repentance to the old life of sin as our Master, and then, by that same faith, to live for our rightful Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them.

By this faith we receive the Spirit of God that frees us from sin, so that we now live the New LIFE by faith. This is the salvation God offers.

That is God's Plan. That is the Gospel. We do not earn salvation by our faithfulness; rather, God freely saves anyone who will repent and believe in His Son, listening to and following Him.

Romans 6:20-22
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

This is sanctification, and is salvation.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do notgive up.

The only acceptable worship that God accepts from those who claim faith in Jesus, is a sanctified and holy life onto Him...

Romans 12:1 (NIV)
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,

to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
holy and pleasing to God—
this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Doesn't God have a right to freely grant salvation to the ones who truly love Him?

So why call a true Bible Faith works, when God clearly teaches just the opposite?

Don't you want the New Life that God offers?

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

aiki said:
No, it is that much of what you write is extraneous or irrelevant. I posted those parts of what you wrote that most clearly indicated your purpose and then responded to them.

Not really brother aiki, God's WORD is never extraneous or irrelevant. It is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it over the traditions and teachings of those who seek to break the commandments of God. You responding to God's WORD with your words does not make what you say true as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. Even the scriptures you provided only supported the earlier posts provided to you. You are free to beleive as you wish brother. I do not judge you. We all stand before God come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

aiki said:
What you believe is irrelevant to what the verse actually says and means. As I already pointed out in my last post, your complementary (not complimentary) applications are not supported by the verse you're citing here.

Well that is not true brother. It is God's WORD not mine that is shared and it is never irrelavent. We should believe and follow it. As shown in my last post the scriptures you provided only supported a complimentary application of EPHESIANS 4:30 which is in agreement to and for the second coming for those who are sealed to what JESUS did for us in paying the price for our sins by dying for them. You are free to believe as you wish brother, I do not judge you

.

aiki said:
Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Simply saying that "sealed" doesn't mean God's Spirit cannot leave or depart a Christian doesn't make it so.

Indeed that is why supporting scriptures have been provded through out this thread and in the OP that show that if we GREIVE God's Spirit He will not force us to follow him. God's WORD says that we GRIEVE God's Spirit through SIN and UNBELIEF. It is never that God departs from us. He is seeking to save us and will continue to do so until was die or the second coming. It is only as we depart from God that we greive him and if we continue to reject His Word when we have been given a knowledge of the truth that God leaves us to do as we wish. *EPHESIANS 4:30 ; HEBREWS 3:17 ; PSALMS 95:10-11 ; HEBREWS 3:10-11; PSALMS 119:158; GENESIS 6:5-7; ACT 2:38; ACT 3:19; ACT 8:22; ACT 17:30; ACT 26:20; HEBREWS 3:7-19 ; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10 ; HEBREWS 6:4-8 ; 2 PETER 2:20-22; HEBREWS 10:26-31 ; GALATIANS 1:6; ACTS 20:28-31; HEBREWS 2:1-3 ; HEBREWS 10:35-38 ; ISAIAH 59:1-3 ; EZEKIEL 3:17-21 ; JOSHUA 23:11-13 ; NUMBERS 14:43 ; JAMES 5:19 ; JEREMIAH 3:8-14 ; JOEL 2:13 ; LUKE 8:13

HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:20-22
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

etc etc...

Now brother these are God's WORD not my words. You are free to believe as you wish but as you can see here they do indeed disagree with you. Something to pray about don't you think?

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

aiki said:
The clear implication of the phrase "sealed for" is that of being reserved unto, being set apart for, a yet-to-occur purpose or moment. The word "for" indicates a future event is in view, not a past event like the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our redemption.

You seem to be just repeating yourself here brother without reading or addressing the previous post which looks at the Greek Word used here for TO/FOR/UNTO which has direct application to EPHESIANS 4:30 while at the same time trying to argue things I am not saying or believe.

As posted to you from the very beggining the main application to EPHESIANS 4:30 is in relation to the 2nd coming. Why you think I am triyng to argue that I do not believe this after I stated that this is the main applicaiton of the scriptures from the very first post? Now If you are triyng to argue something we both agree with then you have no argument now do you? Then if you have no argument then what are you trying to argue about? As shown in the previous post, the Greek word for TO/FOR/UNTO does not effect a complimentary application on the Greek Word use of REDEMPTION which is the DAY we are sealed TO/FOR/UNTO.

aiki said:
And this is, as I pointed out, made more certain by what Paul had already written earlier in his letter to the Ephesian believers.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV) 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That word "until" makes it clear that Paul was thinking of a future event when he wrote of the "redemption of the purchased possession," not the redemption already accomplished at Calvary. Your idea, then, that there is this extra "complementary application" regarding the redemption of believers at Calvary is a false extrapolation born of your desire to dissolve the serious problem Ephesian 4:30 gives to your saved-and-lost doctrine.
It is entirely false that Paul meant both the spiritual redemption of the believer at Calvary and the future redemption (or glorification) of his body at the Final Resurrection. It is quite plain that Paul was referring only to the latter event, not the former (see above). He mentioned this redemption in his letter to the Romans, too, but explained to them his meaning more exactly:

Romans 8:21-23 (NKJV)
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Thus, it is confirmed that Paul is looking forward to a future event, not a past one, in his remark in Ephesians 4:30, namely the glorification (redemption) of the believer's body at the Final Resurrection.

So you think I am disagreeing with the scripture posted how?

Why are you continuing to argue that EPHESIANS 4:30 does not apply to the 2nd coming when I have stated from the very start that it does? You are confused as REDEMPTION starts only because of what JESUS did at Calvery in paying the price for our sins and it is only here that we must look in order to be ready for the 2nd coming.

ROMANS 3:20-24
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21], But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22], Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23], For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24], BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:30 [30] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and REDEMPTION.

EPHESIANS 1:7 [7], IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GRACE.

Links to the physical REDEMPTION at the second coming...

EPHESIANS 1:14 [14], WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, to the praise of his glory.

The FUTURE redemtion here is linked with REDEMPTION of the price paid in full for salvation through the BLOOD of JESUS with the Greek word meaning of REDEMPTION in EPHESIANS 4:30 (complimantary application) THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

EPHESIANS 4:30 And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, WHEREBY YOU ARE SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

COLOSSIANS 1:14 IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, EVEN THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

HEBREWS 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US.

NOTE: There is no future day of physical REDEMPTION if we have not first experienced the day of REDEMPTION and the price paid in full at Calvery for our sins through the BLOOD of JESUS who paid the price for our sins in full brother. We are only in Christ as we come to the cross and accept what JESUS has done for us in paying the ransom for our sins.

The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance. The meaning here has the implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the cross which is the day of redemption which is the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only begotten son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to/for/unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins; paid the price of our sins and died the death that we deserve to die so that we can be reconciled to God not to die for our sins; we have been redeemed from our sins; saved from our sins through FAITH to be called the sons and daughters of God.

The application of the scriptures here meaning that the HOLY SPIRIT leads BELIEVERS and SEALS them to the cross of JESUS so that whosever believes in the gift of God's dear son should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16. There is no physical redemption at the second coming without the cross. We cannot separate redemtion at the cross to physical redemption at the 2nd coming.

I do not have a saved lost doctrine brother. God's WORD says there are BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS in God's WORD and all those who turn away from God's WORD who become UNBELIEVERS will not enter into God's REST because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 3:6-19.

Hope this helps

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

aiki said:
You are conflating two distinct and separate things: the spiritual redemption of the believer and the redemption (or glorification) of their body at the Second Coming. While these things are related, they are not interchangeable as you are insisting they are here. You are adding an entirely unintended dimension to Paul's words by forcing the term "redemption" in Ephesians 4:30 to refer to Calvary as well as the Second Coming.

As posted to you from the very beggining the main application to EPHESIANS 4:30 is in relation to the 2nd coming. Why you think I am triyng to argue that I do not believe this after I stated that this is the main applicaiton of the scriptures from the very first post? Now If you are triyng to argue something we both agree with then you have no argument now do you? Then if you have no argument then what are you trying to argue about? All that was provides earlier was a complimentary application of REDEMPTION being related to the cross and that you cannot have a future physical redemtion without first having the spiritual through the BLOOD of the lamb. Of course EPHESIANS 4:30 refers to Calvery. How can you have a physical day of redemption without first having the Spiritual?

LoveGodsWord · May 30, 2019

aiki said:
Again, this is simply false. As I've already explained above, Paul did not have this thinking in mind when he wrote Ephesians 4:30. You are forcing this interpretation on his words, twisting his meaning in order to diminish it.

Well that is not true. Now your making things up. Paul speaks very clearly throughout all the NEW TESTAMENT and OLD TESTAMENT scriptures linking REDEPTION to the cross and the BLOOD of JESUS through his sacrifice for out sin in paying our ransom for our sins through His death and resurrection from the dead. As posted already you cannot separate a physical REDEMPTION at the second coming from the Spiritual REDEMPTION of the cross. If we do not know the spiritual redemption through the BLOOD of JESUS we cannot will not receive the physical REEMPTION at the second coming. JESUS is only coming for those who are covered by the BLOOD. He is our passover and protector from the destroying angel *1 CORINTHAINS 5:7.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ We are SEALED because of what JESUS did paying our ransom with His life for our sins! It is those who are sealed through faith in the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance that receive eternal life at the second coming.

Your response...

aiki said:
No, the one who believes in Christ as Saviour, as the One who redeemed them from the eternal penalty of their sins, receives eternal life the moment they believe, not at the Second Coming. Over and over again in Scirpture, salvation and its effects are referred to in such a way as to indicate that they are already the possession of the genuine born-again believer.

1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 1:3-6 (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11 (NKJV)
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV)
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

And so on. Salvation is a done deal for the one who has trusted in Christ as Saviour and Lord. And such an one may look forward to the redemption of their body unto which time they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, the "downpayment of their future heavenly inheritance in Christ.

Have a look at all the scriptures you have provided. I believe them and all of them are true praise be to God. Note however that all the scriptures you have provided here ONLY have application to BELIEVERS in the "PRESENT TENSE". None of the scriptures you have provided say a BELIEVER cannot FALL AWAY and become an "UNBELIEVER" now do they. No where in the scriptures you have provided above say as you claim that "Salvation is a done deal" now do they? Now theses promises are true and sures indeed but there application is ONLY to BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" we have these promises now as we CONTINUE to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. However, it is only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD who ENDURE TEMPTATION to continue in SIN and who do not FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD that RECEIVE eternal life....

MATTHEW 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:14; 23
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

too many more to list...

aiki said:
So? The record of Scripture is clear: While the Israelites missed out on the blessing of the Promised Land, they were not rejected by God. As the last several chapters of the Book of Numbers describes, God continued to sustain and protect His Chosen People in the wilderness. What, then, of your idea that they are a picture of salvation-lost? It just doesn't hold water. This isn't what the record of Scripture concerning the unbelieving Israelites indicates.

Your confused here brother. It was the "UNBELIEVERS" those who rejected God's WORD to continue in sin God rejected. God did not reject all those who repented of their sins and turned to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his Word. The scriptures do indeed bear record...

Sin is defined in God's WORD as the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20 and "UNBELIEF" that all sin is tied to *ROMANS 14:23.

Sin separates us from God's presence so that he will not hear us....

ISAIAH 59:1-2, [1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:[2], But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

PROVERBS 28:9 [9], He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Your forgetting again that it is only those who BELIEVED and FOLLOWED the WORD of GOD that God did not abandon. Those who did not believe and did not follow God were indeed abandoned as already shared with you in...

HEBREWS 3:10-19 [10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. [12], Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end; [15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. [16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. [17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

aiki said:
No where in this passage is it anywhere stated that the Israelites were utterly rejected by God or that the believer should fear such a fate should they doubt. Just as unbelief kept the Israelites from the blessing of the land of Canaan, unbelief keeps the Christian from the blessing of all that is theirs in Christ. But losing out on such blessing does not equate to the loss of one's salvation. That is an interpretation you must force upon the passage.

As posted and shared through the scriptures already. Where did I ever post that God utterly rejected ISRAEL? I didn't. It was only those who did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD that he rejected. Those who repented or BELIEVED and FOLLOWED God's WORD he never forsakes.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Well that one is not always true as can be demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 which is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS and departed from the faith

Your response...

aiki said:
I disagree. Both passages bear out the false convert view, not the lost-salvation view.

Your struggling a bit here brother aren't you. Those passages say nothing about false converts. They are talking about BELIEVERS that received God's Spirit!

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

NOTE: The context here is those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v4. Context is pretty clear hear brother I can understand why you did not want to address these scriptures. Continuing in v5 and have tasted the good word of God and the world to come. So the context here is very clear stating that these people were converted BELIEVERS that were enlightened with Gods' WORD and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and the power of the world to come. Now wait for it v6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. The IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS in the Word of GOD and who RECEIVED the HOLY Spirit!

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

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