BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

Oscarr said:

I don't have a problem with what you are saying about sin grieving the Holy Spirit, especially when a believer falls away from their faith in Christ. You are quite correct in what you are saying.

But I felt that you were extracting Scriptures out of the natural contexts to support your view. So, I replied and presented a more accurate exegetical approach to those Scriptures. Because of space constraints, I have to leave them at the exegetical stage and not suggest how these Scriptures could be applied to the 21st Century mind-set and religious culture.

So, the hermeneutical approach, which is to interpret the Scripture to how it relates to us right now, could be to think how those OT Scriptures about God being grieved over the unbelief of the Israelites in the wilderness, and those in Canaan who were departing from the Lord into idolatry. There are important lessons for us in these Scriptures, and there is no doubt about that, and so, to better use those Scriptures to illustrate your valid points, instead of just plucking the references out as they are and putting them on the page, is to:

1. Who wrote the Scriptures and what was his intention, why did he write them, and what was it that he was wanting his readers to understand? Having an understanding of the religious environment and the mid-set of his readers, how did they understand what he was writing to them. And, in the context of the Hebrews Scriptures which the Apostle was referring to an earlier time, how did those First Century Jews reading his epistle understand what he was getting at? That is the exegesis of the Scripture.

2. Then we come to hermeneutically interpreting the Scripture according to our religious environment, culture, and mind-set. Is this spoken direct to us or for us? If it is to us, what instructions are there that we need to follow? If the Scripture is for us, what lessons can we learn from the Scripture so that we can avoid the possible consequences that could happen to us if we went the same way into unbelief and idolatry?

So, instead of filling up a whole page of Scripture references, all you need is around three relevant Scriptures, examine them exegetically as I advised in point 1, and then do something to apply them to your theme of God grieving over sin.

I hope this is helpful, because I mean it that way. I desire that when people read your posts, they see the wood for the trees.

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Hello brother Oscar,

Thanks for clarifying some of your thoughts. However for me I respectfully disagree with your post in releation to context, interpretation and hermeneutics for the reasons already outlined with scripture support in post # 11 linked.

What your post is not taking into consideration is that God's WORD is not another book it is the Word of God and all scripture has application to God's people for all time (past, present and future) *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11; 2 TIMOTHY 3:16; MATTHEW 4:4 and the meaning of these scriptures can only be known through seeking JESUS for His Spirit through his Word which is the NEW COVENANT promise to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW His WORD *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17 on condition that we continue to believe and follow it *JOHN 8:31-36.

WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND GOD'S WORD WITHOUT HIS SPIRIT.

ISAIAH 55:9 [8], For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, said the LORD. [9], For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

ISAIAH 28:9-10 [9], Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10], For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little

ISAIAH 54:13 [13], And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children.

HEBREWS 8:11 [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Not only is salvation as gift of God, so is the understanding of the scriptures as we seek to know God through his Spirit. We cannot know the truth of God's Word without JESUS guiding us through his Spirit

JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

JOHN 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother.

aiki said:

This is a gross mishandling of Scripture, an overt attempt to wrest Scripture to what you think, rather than letting it speak for itself.

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Hello brother aiki, nice to see you. I think I will post the complete section of my post as you are only part quoting what was provided. It is probably more like you are gross misrepresenting what was posted earlier which is provided below for reference. Or maybe you did not read what I posted earlier correctly.

LGW wrote: Let's start with an interesting view on Ephesians 4:30 which I believe can have many complimentary (not contradictory) applications not just the one below (It is God's Word after all)

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, in whom ye were SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Note; the Greek word used in this warning for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō to stamp as a private mark for security or preservation. It does not mean that God's Spirit cannot leave or depart us.

So the meaning applied here is that the Holy Spirit is given to BELIEVERS as a sign of preservation or mark in the "present tense".

Note here also that the scripture tells us that we are SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEPTION. Or the Holy Spirit SEALS BELIEVERS TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!

The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

This has direct reference to the cross and the ransom JESUS paid for out sins at Calvery (day of redemption). It also has reference to the 2nd coming but let's focus on the literal Greek meaning here for a minute as we cannot have the one without the other. The Greek word REDEMPTION used here means; the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

The meaning here has the implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the cross which is the day of redemption which is the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only begotten son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins; paid the price of our sins and died the death that we deserve to die so that we can be reconciled to God not to die for our sins; we have been redeemed from our sins; saved from our sins through FAITH to be called the sons and daughters of God.

The application of the scriptures here meaning that the HOLY SPIRIT leads BELIEVERS and SEALS them to the cross of JESUS so that whosever believes in the gift of God's dear son should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16. End quote..

aiki said:

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 4:30 (NASB)
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Ephesians 4:30 (ASV)
30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

In each of these versions, the sense of the verse is forward-looking. Paul, writing to post-Calvary believers urged them to look ahead, into the future, to the Day of Redemption unto which, or for which, they were sealed by the Holy Spirit. He writes in this verse of what he had already mentioned earlier in his letter to the Ephesian Church:

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Brother rather then trying to misquote me, I posted earlier that the scripture application is to the 2nd coming which I highlighted in red for your viewing above. Maybe you missed it. I am not saying that what was posted earlier was not to the 2nd coming when I posted it's application is to the 2nd coming. I was simply giving a complimentary view of the Greek word used for REDEMPTION (JESUS paying the price in full for our redemption) which are what BELIEVERS are sealed to and it's application to the 2nd coming.

What was posted above in relation to EPHESIANS 4:30 was another complimentary application looking at the Greek words SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Whatever translation you have provided wheather TO; FOR; UNTO does not make any difference to what was posted earlier.

The Greek word meaning used here for TO/UNTO/FOR is εἰς; eis (G1519) which means; A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to),. .. ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

King James 2000 Bible
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

American King James Version
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.

American Standard Version
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

American Standard Version
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

English Revised Version
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

Webster's Bible Translation
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed to the day of redemption.

Weymouth New Testament
And beware of grieving the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you have been sealed in preparation for the day of Redemption.

World English Bible
Don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Young's Literal Translation
and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed to a day of redemption.

Looking at the Greek we can see that the application of TO/UNTO/FOR εἰς; eis (G1519). Is what we are SEALED TO/FOR/UNTO which is the DAY OF REDEMPTION.

All I was highlighting above was a COMPLIMENTARY application of REDEMPTION to the 2nd coming and the SEALING of God's Spirit where the Greek Word "REDEMPTION" is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

What was being highlighted here is that God's people are SEALED to the DAY OF REDEMPTION which has application to the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance. We are SEALED because of what JESUS did paying our ransom with His life for our sins! It is those who are sealed through faith in the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance that receive eternal life at the second coming.

aiki said:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV) 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

It is unmistakable here that Paul means a future redemption, not the redemption already accomplished at Calvary. The "purchased possession" is the believer.

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Thankyou, this scripture only supports what was posted earlier and above and is exactly what was being shared in the Greek application of REDEMPTION in EPHESIANS 4:30 in relation to the 2nd coming. So what is it you are trying to disagree with?

aiki said:

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NKJV) 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. And the redemption of the believer, who is the "purchased possession," is still to come, indicated by the word "until." The Spirit seals the believer until their future redemption. What redemption is that exactly?

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Thankyou, this scripture only supports what was posted earlier and above and is exactly what was being shared in the Greek application of REDEMPTION and Christ's sacrifice in EPHESIANS 4:30 in relation to the 2nd coming. So what is it you are trying to disagree with?

aiki said:

Paul explained in his letter to the Romans: Romans 8:21-23 (NKJV) 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

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Indeed and your point here is? Or are you trying to argue that the application of REDEMPTION only means a physcal application to the body at the 2nd coming? Which is a contradiction of the earlier scriptures quoted?

aiki said:

While the unbelief of the Israelites meant they would all die in the wilderness, it did not mean they were abandoned by God, cast off, and no longer His Chosen People. The instance of the unbelieving Israelites mentioned in Hebrews 3 & 4 does not give any ground for asserting that unbelief (aka - sin) results in God's entire rejection of a person. The Israelites missed out on God's blessing because of their unbelief, but they did not die abandoned by God because they were unbelieving.

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Sin is defined in God's WORD as the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20 and "UNBELIEF" that all sin is tied to *ROMANS 14:23. Sin separates us from God's presence so that he will not hear us.

ISAIAH 59:1-2, [1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:[2], But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

PROVERBS 28:9 [9], He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Your forgetting again that it is only those who BELIEVED and FOLLOWED the WORD of GOD that God did not abandon. Those who did not believe and did not follow God were indeed abandoned as already shared with you in...

HEBREWS 3:10-19 [10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. [12], Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end; [15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. [16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. [17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

aiki said:

Any who continue unrepentant, and persistent, and comfortable in sin demonstrate in doing so that they were never truly saved, not that they have lost their salvation.

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Well that one is not always true as can be demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 which is in reference to those who were BELIEVERS and departed from the faith.

Hope this helps

Guojing said:

A simple counter-argument

A Christian is under grace and not under Law Romans 6:14
Sin cannot be imputed to a person not under Law Romans 5:12-13

Therefore a Christian logically cannot have unrepentant sin, known or unknown.

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Why would you think that is a counter argument? Only those who continue in known unrepentant sin stand guilty before God of being "UNDER THE LAW" because they are condemned by it ROMANS 3:19-20.

If we have been FORGIVEN for our sins by faith in God's WORD and walk in newness of life then there is no longer any condemnation and we no longer stand guilty before God of sin *ROMANS 8:1-4

According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT the purpose of God's LAW is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. Anyone can be in known unrepentant sin. It is only those who ENDURE Temptation the end that receive eternal life...

JAMES 1:12 [12], Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Thanks for sharing.

bcbsr said:

It seems to me you're asking about Eternal Security.

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Not at all. Only posting that there is no such thing as eternal security as shown in the scriptures in the OP. Happy to look at your scriptures to see if they say that a BELIEVER cannot depart from God and become an unbeliever as it states in the OP if you like?

bcbsr said:

"I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Now if "things to come" cannot separate us from the love of Christ, that is by definition eternal security. Furthermore while there are those who allege we can separate ourselves, such is not the case given that the list includes "any other created thing". Are you a created thing? Well then you cannot separate yourself.

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Love the scriptures here and I believe them. Sadly they do not support your interpretation of them. Your argument here is that a "BELIEVER" once saved cannot be lost or unsaved. The scriptures here say no such thing. Notice that the promises here are CONDITIONAL in relation to "US" which is in reference to "BELIEVERS" in the "PRESENT TENSE". These scriptures are in reference to "BELIEVERS" that are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the now. They do not say a BELIEVER cannot depart from God's WORD. They say that no one can separate God's LOVE from BELIEVERS. If we BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD than God's promises are for us. If we are not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD then God's promises are not for UNBELIEVERS. Sadly UNBELIEVERS have no part in God's Word.

bcbsr said:

Furthermore those who belong to Christ don't fall away, as it is written in 1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED) they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED) but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

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Nope! No where God's WORD does it state anywhere that believers do not FALL AWAY. In fact we read that BELIEVERS can indeed fall away and we as Christians are WARNED in God's WORD not to.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:20-22
[20], FOR IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

links to....

HEBREWS 10:26-31
[26], FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
[1], Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2], BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
[3], For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, THE LORD WILL NOT BE WITH YOU.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

................

CONCLUSION: We can GREIVE God's Spirit if we continue in known unrepentant sin and he will depart from us and leave us over to strong delusions if we do not receive and love the truth.

Now where in the scripture you quoted above in 1 JOHN 2:19 does it say a Christian is once saved always saved and cannot fall away? It doesn't does it? Let's look at your foundation scripture that you interpret to support once saved always saved in detail as the scripture you provide here only support all the othere provided above warning God's poeple not to fall away and depart from the faith...

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. It was going out and leaving the truth that made these people not of us as leaving God's truth made them "UNBELIEVERS". The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word). If they contunued with us then they would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us.

bcbsr said:

The reason they don't as explained in 1John 3:9 is due to the regenerate nature.
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

And as you noted we're sealed for the day of redemption. Like verses say:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, He set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2Cor 1:21,22

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession— to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13,14

All such rhetoric is consistent with the concept of Eternal Security.

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Once agian love the scriptures and I believe them. Sadly they do not support your interpretation of them suggesting and application of once saved always saved or a "BELIEVER" once saved cannot be lost and turn away from God and be unsaved. The scriptures here say no such thing.

The application here is to "BELIEVERS" in the "PRESENT TENSE". These scriptures are in reference to "BELIEVERS" that are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. They do not say a BELIEVER cannot depart from God's WORD now do they.

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Sorry brother you have not provided a single scripture that supports once saved always saved. According to God's WORD it is only he who endures to the end that will be saved *MATTHEW 10:22. Seems many are going to be disappointed come judgment day.

Hope this helps .

Oscarr said:

The Day of Redemption is one of those "right now" but "not yet" type of events. We are redeemed because we have been converted to Christ, with new hearts and spirit; But complete redemption will come when we lose our sinful bodies and receive glorified ones.

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Agreed no one has said differently

Oscarr said:

Absolutely true. There are many mysteries concerning God's ways, and we have just enough information in the Bible to know how to get saved and live righteously and to walk in the Spirit.


Also true.


No problem with this.


True. But it doesn't mean that we turn off our brains and not study to get a better understanding of what the Bible is saying to us through intellectual means. That's what He gave us an intellect for.


That's why one of the Five Fold Ministries included that of Teacher. The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist that settles over people and someone magically gives them knowledge. He works through human ministries - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

As a traditional Pentecostal, many, when I was converted to Christ in the 1960s, were anti-academic, and believed that an intellectual study of the Bible was unspiritual. Therefore theologians were almost of the devil. The trouble is that the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are riddled with error, false teaching and occult practices because people got "revelations" without studying the Scriptures to see whether these "revelations" were true.

Then I discovered that the best Bible teachers were those who went and got degrees in theology and divinity and who had done 'the hard yards" of study of the Scriptures and the skills of interpretation. Therefore, I got a lot of valuable teaching and understanding of the Scriptures without having to "re-invent the wheel". Then I realised that those who rejected these men of God who studied the Scriptures and taught sound doctrine, were unteachable types who were more concerned about their own opinions. To my mind, these ones are full of pride and are self-opinionated, not willing to test their "revelations" with what faithful men and women of God have discovered, using "the anointing will teach us all things" as an excuse.


As I said, He uses faithful men and women to teach us. Even Jesus had to learn the Scriptures through teachers in His home synagogue. Why do you think He, at the age of 12, was able to have the discussions with the guys at the Temple? Because He had carefully studied the Scriptures, listened to the teaching of his parents and mentors in the Synagogue. He did not get his "revelation" through some kind of magical injection into His brain.

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I am not quite sure how anything you have posted here really addresses or disagrees with what you were responding to. The NEW COVENANT promise for BELIEVERS is that although we have teachers in Christs Word the main aim of these teachers should be to lead and point all to the Word of God and JESUS (The I must decrease and He must increase) so that through faith all those who are lead to God's WORD may seek and find God for themselves guided by His Spirit through His Word. *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 8:31-36. If the role of the teacher is not leading all they teach to JESUS and by faith to the WORD of God alone then they are not doing what God's WORD teaches in fulfillment of the NEW COVENANT promise of salvation by Faith *HEBREWS 8:10-12. By their fruits you shall know them.

God bless

Oscarr said:

Those who teach the gospel of Christ are the only teachers that I know of who are genuine. It doesn't matter what a person teaches because it will all be worthless if the teaching does not involve the gospel of Christ - that we are all going to die one day and we are sinners deserving of hell, and that is where everyone who is still in their sins are going to go. But the good news is that Jesus died on the cross and took our punishment for sin upon Himself and then rose from the dead, and because He rose from the dead, those who are in Christ will rise also to be with the Lord; and if we acknowledge and confess our sin and turn to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, He will save us, and we will know where we are going when we die.

That is the gospel, and it is the only one that will save us.

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What do you mean? The Gospel of Christ is the Word of God *MARK 1:1; JOHN 1:1-3; 14. He (the Word) must increase and I must decrease *JOHN 3:30. God's true messengers point all to the Word of God (the gospel) because it is there we find Jesus (the living Word).