What is obedience to the gospel?

Hammster said:

There’s a difference in how those sins affect other people. There is no difference between consequences concerning God. If Christ died for the sin, it’s serious.

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I do see the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 and the context of that chapter as a sin that Christ died for because it is a grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) being confessed to Jesus for forgiveness (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

I know you may disagree, but I see the sin of Adam being passed down upon every man, woman, and child as a physical sin upon the physical flesh and blood body only. This physical flesh and blood body corrupted by sin can influence men to do sinful things and this physical body is on the road to death (Which is the wages of sin). Only Christ's resurrection gives any hope to reverse this curse of Adam. However, Christ's sacrifice (Which was promised before the world began) had already saved men on a spiritual level at the onset of their birth. So if a baby dies, the sacrifice of Jesus allows for that baby to be saved and be in His Kingdom. Of course, the Lord knows who will accept the Lord and who will not accept the Lord. God will know if the soul of that baby will accept Jesus or reject Jesus if they grew up to be an adult. So God places the souls of his faithful ones even in babies that die. For God is sovereign. Anyways, my point here is that when men grow up, they fall into sin (like the prodigal sin), and this is where they need to be given life again in the new birth by accepting the everlasting Father (i.e. Jesus Christ) (Note: Jesus is the everlasting Father because His faithful believers will all be resurrected by Him after the genetic code or likeness of His physical body).

As for sins unto death that extend beyond the scope of 1 John 5, like disobedience on the command to be baptized, and faults of character like with Paul refusing to obey the Spirit in not going to Jerusalem, I honestly do not know if Christ died for these kinds of sins because they are not offenses that condemn. The point of Jesus dying for our sins is to save us from the kind of sins that we surely know do condemn us. However, on the other hand, I also see it as highly probable that Christ died for these kinds of sins as a means purifying His saints in being 100% holy as He is holy. The one verse that is floating around in the back of my mind is: "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23). So I am not against the idea that Jesus died for sins not unto death outside the scope of 1 John 5. I just do not know how such a thing works in light of Christ's sacrifice and in light of what the rest of the Scriptures say. Then again, we do look through a glass darkly. So it is possible it may be one of those things we were not meant to know in this life. In either case, I will keep asking the Lord for the truth on this one and keep seeking the Scriptures.

bcbsr said:

Like I said, "what salvation by works Christians can't seem to get through their thick skulls is that believers doing good works do so not in order to be saved nor to maintain their salvation status, but rather they do so because of the new creation." Which apparently is a concept which you not only cannot comprehend, you simply ignore the statement itself. And such statements I have made many times. Do the words on the page become invisible to you?

To repeat the same thing I've constantly been saying - those born of God are saved. They do what is right not in order to be saved but because they have been born of God. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Such an idea baffles you. You've proven over the years incapable of comprehending the meaning. And so you've resorted to simply ignoring such statements and continually making false accusations against those of us who believe in the gospel of grace and go on to misread scripture as to mislead others into you salvation by works concepts. All you end up doing is affirming my thread on "Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians misconstrue scripture".

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You say that Belief Alone-ism automatically leads the believer to living a holy life. However, the Bible says, “...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14). "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12). “...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13). "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10). "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7). "...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11). "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5). "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

However, the major problem I have with my understanding on Belief Alone-ism is that it appears to make light of sin and turns God's grace into a license for immorality. How so? Well, if a person says that Jesus sacrifice is imputed to them even when they sin, then there is no reason or motivation to really live holy or to treat grievous sin for the problem that it really is. The Bible teaches that grievous sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8). Yet, somehow you think that this does not happen. In other words, why would the Bible warn us about certain sin destroying our souls after we die if all we need to do is believe in Jesus? It would be redundant information. A believer does not need a list of bad sins that condemn them. They just need to accept Jesus and they are good to go and not worry about sin anymore or to study God's commands in the New Testament. They can just float through life doing whatever they want or desire and just have a belief on Jesus. They can serve themselves and just have a mental acknowledgement of the Lord. They do not have to take sin so seriously. No big deal. They are Once Saved Always Saved. But that is not the reality of the Scriptures or the real world. Men have committed suicide as a result of OSAS. They took their own life because they thought they would be saved. So this means that the belief itself leads to bad fruit (sin) and not good fruit. For the belief can encourage people to have the mindset of making a person to think they can sin and still be saved. Even now, do you believe there is sin in the life of believers that you know that the Bible condemns? Do you think they are saved by Christ's sacrifice and resurrection? This is the problem I have with your belief. It does not actually lead to holy living as you claim. Neither is your belief here consistent with the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:23.

Oh, and I am technically a "Grace by faith in Jesus + works of faith Christian," and not a salvation by works Christian. For nobody can be saved by works alone without God's grace (Which is what Paul was arguing against).

bcbsr said:

Like I said, "what salvation by works Christians can't seem to get through their thick skulls is that believers doing good works do so not in order to be saved nor to maintain their salvation status, but rather they do so because of the new creation." Which apparently is a concept which you not only cannot comprehend, you simply ignore the statement itself. And such statements I have made many times. Do the words on the page become invisible to you?

To repeat the same thing I've constantly been saying - those born of God are saved. They do what is right not in order to be saved but because they have been born of God. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Such an idea baffles you. You've proven over the years incapable of comprehending the meaning. And so you've resorted to simply ignoring such statements and continually making false accusations against those of us who believe in the gospel of grace and go on to misread scripture as to mislead others into you salvation by works concepts. All you end up doing is affirming my thread on "Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians misconstrue scripture".

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You said on your website, I quote:


Source:
1John 1:1-2:2

So based on my understanding of what you said, it appears as if your standard of holiness is not really living holy as per 1 John 3, but it is merely a paying of lip service of saying you are sorry. But John tells us to "sin not" in 1 John 2. Jesus says to sin no more (John 5:14, John 8:11). Also, how does this belief work in the real world? Can a man who cheats on his wife expect her to stay with her if he just keeps saying he is sorry and yet he has no intention of ever stopping? You made it sound like you are for holy living on the one hand with your quote of 1 John 3, but this appears to be just a mirage or an illusion. For if I understood you correctly, you appear to claim that no believer can no longer stop committing sin. This means an alcoholic cannot overcome his sin of alcoholism or a person cannot overcome their sin of sex addiction, or a person cannot overcome grievous sin in this life. This encourages licentious living and not holy living if you teach others that they are in defeat to their own grievous sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. This means they have put away their grievous sins.

Another problem I have with what you said above here is that you imply that Christians who do believe in "Grace by Faith in Jesus + Works of Faith = Salvation" is that you say that they lack conviction of their sin so as to confess it. I am sorry, but that is simply not true. There is no grievous sin that I am refusing to repent of (i.e. to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) over. If there was, the Lord would convict me of it so as to confess it and forsake it. For I always strive to ask the Lord if there is anything standing between me and Him. I am also not the only believer who thinks this way or He has this kind of walk or testimony. Proverbs 28:13 says, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy."

Side Note:

Please take note that I did not quote your commentary in it's entirety because I did not want to show words that you had written that could potentially violate forum rules.

In any event, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you today.
If you continue to disagree, I think it is best we agree to disagree in love and respect and move on. But I will leave that up to you.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

Hammster said:

Thanks for that.

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Your welcome.

You said:

At least it explains why you think we can lead sinless lives, or at least close to it. Unfortunately, you are being deceived into thinking that you are close to being righteous. That’s dangerous. Not only for you, but for those who you might convince to believe the same way.

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1 John 3:7 says,
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

Hammster said:

I’m in Christ. I’m raised up seated with Him in the heavenly places. I can’t do any better than that. There’s no amount of work that can possibly be better. That’s the gospel. That’s what you are missing.

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Well, from my perspective, I would be missing 1 John 3:7 if I believed as you do.
I mean, how does your belief fit or work with 1 John 3:7?
Do you ignore this verse?
Do you have another explanation for it?

bcbsr said:

No, you don't understand me correctly. Nor do you understand the scriptures correctly. While you allege that my faith "encourages licentious living" and such, I would say that your viewpoint is unbelief and is much like that of the Jewish unbelievers whom Paul opposed. Paul says, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 Well good luck living up to whatever you reckon the perfect standard is so that you can be qualified to be saved and boast about what a good person you were earning your salvation by your works.

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Again, you said, I quote:

You appear to be against the idea of:

(a). Those who claim to no longer sin.
(b). The holiness movement because they deny their inherent sinful nature.
(c). The holiness movement for they deceive themselves because they are overlooking their own sinfulness.

Now, what is the opposite position of claiming to not sinning?
Sinning.
Yet you believe you are saved based on a belief alone in Jesus.
You you are against those who say they stopped sinning.
So this means you are for the position of sinning.
So how exactly is your belief here not licentious living or a sin and still be saved gospel?
Can you explain the difference here?

Oh, and Galatians 3 is talking about the OLD Law and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Please. Please read the context. For why would Paul speak against the teachings or commands of Jesus? The short answer is that he wouldn't. In fact, 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

bcbsr said:

Your logic doesn't follow seeing as those born of God do overcome "for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1John 5:4,5

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It is true that 1 John 5:4 says:
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

But this was not meant to be an exhaustive truth that applies to all who are born again.

How so?

Well, 1 John 5:4-5 has to be read in light of other verses. For the Bible also teaches that one has to endure, overcome, be faithful unto death, resist temptation, and keep themselves in the love of God:

The Bible also teaches that believers can fall away.
Here is a general list of verses about falling away:

Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)


For Scripture cannot contradict itself.
For the statement in 1 John 5:4 can be read without it being an exhaustive truth.
Let me give you an example:
Most people think that two African American parents who are dark skinned will always produce a dark skinned child. But this is not always the case. There have been cases where their child turned out to be white. So while generally it is true that dark skinned parents produce dark skinned children and not white children, this is not always true.

You said:

and they do endure to the end (1John 2:19) Once again you have failed to comprehend the nature of regeneration and its effects on one's behavior.

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Again, 1 John 2:19 is not an exhaustive truth. That would be like saying all cats are orange.
1 John 2:19 is referring to the gnostic believers that never truly accepted the Lord and His teachings.
This verse is not teaching an exhaustive truth for other kinds of people.

You said:

That affirms my impression of salvation-by-works Christians. Seems you can't imagine doing what is right unless you're threatened with damnation.

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And do you not do that today? Do you not respect certain laws of the law based on the fact that there are punishments attached to them?

You said:

As for us born of God we do what is right because it's our nature to do so. The fact that we have eternal life doesn't lead us to live in sin. So once again your argument to reject the reject the grace of God is flawed.

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But in your commentary on 1 John 1:8, you basically insulted holiness type Christians because they say that they have stopped from sinning. Note: Again, I believe many holiness type Christians (like myself) do not regard all sin as the same, and so when they refer to how they do not sin, they are referring to grievous sin and not faults of character, or minor transgressions, or falling short of the perfection of God, etc.; Anyways, your statement here is not consistent with what you said in your commentary.