What did Moses encouter on the mountain?

DamianWarS

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Yahweh on some capacity passed in front of Moses in a very anthropomorphic way. He shields Moses with his hand, he shows his back and he warns against seeing his face. The description of him is of a man of intense power yet existing in this way it would seem to conflict his immutability as God would be as present on the top of the mountain as he would be at the bottom.

This encounter seems to be very much different than the theophanies in other accounts and it is even stressed that what passed in front of Moses was powerful enough to kill Moses just by looking upon it.

So are we to say this is a manifestation of his glory grouped with the other theophanies and he does not have a human body? are we to say it is some sort of incarnation though not Christ? are we to say that he does exist in human form pre-incarnation of Christ? What substance did Moses encounter of God here?
 

nonaeroterraqueous

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are we to say that he does exist in human form pre-incarnation of Christ?

No. We are to say that humans exist in godly form, according to the account of creation. God does not need incarnation to generally resemble one of us.
 
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DamianWarS

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No. We are to say that humans exist in godly form, according to the account of creation. God does not need incarnation to generally resemble one of us.
not sure if I track with you, are you saying Moses encountered a human in a godly but still anthropomorphic form? What is a "godly" form anyway?
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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not sure if I track with you, are you saying Moses encountered a human in a godly but still anthropomorphic form? What is a "godly" form anyway?

Anthropomorphic means that something is in the nature of a human. Out of respect to God I prefer not to refer to God as being in human form (except in the incarnation), acknowledging, instead, that we are made in his form. I know it sounds like arguing semantics, but in this case I think it matters.

What Moses saw was God, who has a likeness that we might be inclined to say resembles a human.
 
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DamianWarS

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Anthropomorphic means that something is in the nature of a human. Out of respect to God I prefer not to refer to God as being in human form (except in the incarnation), acknowledging, instead, that we are made in his form. I know it sounds like arguing semantics, but in this case I think it matters.

What Moses saw was God, who has a likeness that we might be inclined to say resembles a human.

anthropomorphic is something that has human characteristics but is not human nor does it naturally have human characteristics. I use the term strictly in the physical form aspect and not abstract qualities like character which perhaps I should have been more clear on. Describing God as having a hand, or back or face are human characteristics thus anthropomorphic. This would differ from Jesus as Jesus would not be described as anthropomorphic because he is not like a human he is a human.

If we are to say we are made in God's form and characteristics of our form are actually inherited from God's then the term anthropomorphic itself would be a type of misnomer and should be something like theopomorphic which would be something that has the characteristics of God but is not God.

That's a different angle of approaching it and using that logic comparing Moses and God in this encounter only Moses could be called theopomorphic and God, of course, is just God.

What Moses encountered was undoubtedly God but is this form that is described here something that can be used to describe God's immutable characteristics as well. If we say God was on the mountain and had familiar physical characteristics with humans in that he had identifiable hands, back and face are we to say God was not down the mountain too? If God's presence is omnipresent then how does this form revealed to Moses on the mountain reconcile with God's characteristics Paul refers to as the unseen or invisible in Col 1:15?
 
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DamianWarS

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I don't really know, but my interpretation was that Moses saw God in the form of Jesus Christ. maybe it was God the Father. i mean, the Father and the Son are one, so ultimately they are one and the same. It would be curious if it was God the Father, and it is possible. I personally tend to think that Jesus came in the form of the Son of Man, while God the Father is the light. But honestly I don't know. Jesus even shone with light at the transfiguration, and maybe you are right that that was God the Father that Moses saw. It's possible I think.

John 10:
30I and the Father are one.”

31The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

I tried not to draw any conclusions of the identity of the Trinity here. The text uses Yahweh which often translations will use "Lᴏʀᴅ" with the first letter capitalize and the remaining in small caps.

The incarnation to me is a moment that is locked in a specific time. Perhaps it's just a very finite way of looking at it but I've always viewed it that before the incarnation there was no Jesus, there was the Word or 2nd person of the Trinity but Jesus is uniquely linked with hypostatic union itself and not before the hypostatic union if that makes any sense. So for text to reveal an incarnation, it would have to be a different incarnation than Jesus which I don't think can be scripturally supported and its sort of Melchizedek mythology type stuff.

I don't think this example shows us an incarnation of God as an incarnation uniquely places God as 100% human and 100% God but what Moses seems to be encountering is not a human but God himself. Jesus didn't shield his face from people so they wouldn't die and even in his glorified state he still could be looked at. So what Moses encounters doesn't seem to fit with how Jesus interacted with people.
 
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eleos1954

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Yahweh on some capacity passed in front of Moses in a very anthropomorphic way. He shields Moses with his hand, he shows his back and he warns against seeing his face. The description of him is of a man of intense power yet existing in this way it would seem to conflict his immutability as God would be as present on the top of the mountain as he would be at the bottom.

This encounter seems to be very much different than the theophanies in other accounts and it is even stressed that what passed in front of Moses was powerful enough to kill Moses just by looking upon it.

So are we to say this is a manifestation of his glory grouped with the other theophanies and he does not have a human body? are we to say it is some sort of incarnation though not Christ? are we to say that he does exist in human form pre-incarnation of Christ? What substance did Moses encounter of God here?

It was Jesus on Mt. Sinai

John 1

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
 
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... What substance did Moses encounter of God here?

I really don’t know. But I think it is good to know this:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1


I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."

Psalms 82:6-7

Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

Sons of God have been called gods. So, can it be possible that Moses actually encountered one of them, not the one and only true God?
 
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DamianWarS

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I really don’t know. But I think it is good to know this:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1


I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."

Psalms 82:6-7

Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

Sons of God have been called gods. So, can it be possible that Moses actually encountered one of them, not the one and only true God?
I would agree if the text did not use the name Yahweh which differs from other encounters that use the more generic terms el or elohim (gods). This does not seem to be merely an angel.
 
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DamianWarS

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How does the Word or 2nd person of the Trinity appear in incarnation form before the incarnation? Does not Christ need to be born? If this was the incarnate Word of God on the mountain how does this work out?

Also Christ in the NT has very intimate encounter with people and did not need to mask his face or cover people's eyes so they wouldn't die by looking at him. Even in Christ glorified stated he is looked upon by his disciples. Why would these characteristics be different with Moses if we are to say this is Jesus?
 
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DamianWarS

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I think you might be right, in that Moses saw the Father, because while Moses may have seen the Father, Moses didn't see the Father's face, so it is still in line with scripture. However, I just wanted to say that Jesus says He has been around since before Abraham, so He would have been around during the time of Moses as well.

John 8:56-58
56Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”d58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

when I read "before Abraham was, I am" I read this as Jesus identifying himself with the divine. Before the incarnation there was the Word of God, the Word of God did not change after the incarnation, he became enfleshed and this is Jesus but before the incarnation, the enfleshed and incarnate Word of God had not yet happened. So before Abraham (and during, and after) the Word of God existed.
 
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I would agree if the text did not use the name Yahweh which differs from other encounters that use the more generic terms el or elohim (gods). This does not seem to be merely an angel.

I think “gods” is wrong translation for Elohim, because it doesn’t fit well to the context.

And actually, I have sometimes thought, it may be that Elohim is the one and only true God, and Yahweh is His son and Yahweh’s other name could be Jesus. But that may be wrong idea, I have to think more about it.
 
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DamianWarS

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I think “gods” is wrong translation for Elohim, because it doesn’t fit well to the context.

And actually, I have sometimes thought, it may be that Elohim is the one and only true God, and Yahweh is His son and Yahweh’s other name could be Jesus. But that may be wrong idea, I have to think more about it.
Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and El is the short version of that. In Aramaic like what we see in Ezra and Daniel, the word is
'Elahh and you might be surprised to hear there is where the Arabic word "Allah" is rooted. Biblical speaking Elohim can be used as something called a majestic plural (like what we see in Gen 1) this is not referring to God as a plural body but rather showing him honour. But the word can equally mean simply "gods" and context reveals it's proper use.

Yahweh is from the Hebrew YHWH (יהוה). there's no vowel in Hebrew so the vowels are not added to what is thought to be the right pronunciation. it is first revealed in the burning bush moment with Moses where Moses asks God his name. Moses asks God who should I say who has sent me and what is his name? God answers in v14 saying the famous line "I AM who I AM" then goes on to say to tell them I AM has sent you.

v15 he expands and says just what Moses should tell them saying "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers..." "The LORD" here is YHWH. Is it a little confusing? first he says "I AM" sent Moses than he says "YHWH" has sent him. It may surprise you to know that the Hebrew for "I AM" and
YHWH are related, they are in fact the same word.

HYH (hayah) = I AM (first person)
YHWH (Yihweh) = HE IS (third person)

God does not have a name he is just all existing as posseing a name is a finite characteristic . and that's what his response shows us. The third person use is fitting for what Moses would say as Moses would not be using the first person "I AM" to describe God but rather the third person "HE IS" which would be grammatically correct in that context.

The word "name" also in Hebrew is not how we use it in English. The word in Hebrew is Shem and it is connected with the character of a person over a single word that abstractly represents the person. This is why God has such a long answer in v15 saying "God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[HE IS], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My [shem] forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations. what is his name or his "shem"? it's the bolded text, not a single abstract word.

Jesus, of course, identifies himself in the "I AM" saying before Abraham was, I AM". Jesus was calling himself God and everyone listening knew exactly what he was saying. So in a sense, Yahweh is not the name of God it is a statement of his eternal existence, but since Jesus uses this identify perhaps Jesus is saying that he was the one who told Moses these words.
 
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eleos1954

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How does the Word or 2nd person of the Trinity appear in incarnation form before the incarnation? Does not Christ need to be born? If this was the incarnate Word of God on the mountain how does this work out?

Also Christ in the NT has very intimate encounter with people and did not need to mask his face or cover people's eyes so they wouldn't die by looking at him. Even in Christ glorified stated he is looked upon by his disciples. Why would these characteristics be different with Moses if we are to say this is Jesus?

John 20

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was not yet in His glorified state yet, so no, the disciples did not see Jesus in his glorified state.

The Spirit had not been given yet, and the Spirit was not given until the day of Pentecost of which happened several days later (10 days) after His ascension.

Jesus did appear to some and was seen before His ascension and being glorified (in the presence of the Father). Once/since that happened He will not be seen again until He returns.

John 13:31

39 He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Mark 16

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

He was glorified when He entered back into heaven and into the presence of the Father.

John 17:5

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So, on Mt. Sinai, Jesus was in His glorified state (before He came to earth in the form of a man) and could not be seen.
 
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..Jesus, of course, identifies himself in the "I AM" saying before Abraham was, I AM". ...

I think that doesn’t really work. If “I am” means in that "God", then it would be “before Abraham was, God”. That would not be “I am God”, because it doesn’t say “I am I am”.
 
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DamianWarS

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I think that doesn’t really work. If “I am” means in that "God", then it would be “before Abraham was, God”. That would not be “I am God”, because it doesn’t say “I am I am”.
it is just "I am" but it is Christ identifying himself as God as this is the same identity God uses from Exodus 3:14. There is no need to change the word to "God" or "I am God" the two references are instantly linked and this seems to be clear. We know this because the next moment the Jews picked up stones to throw at him because such a claim would be a capital offence (of course if untrue)
 
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Grip Docility

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Yahweh on some capacity passed in front of Moses in a very anthropomorphic way. He shields Moses with his hand, he shows his back and he warns against seeing his face. The description of him is of a man of intense power yet existing in this way it would seem to conflict his immutability as God would be as present on the top of the mountain as he would be at the bottom.

This encounter seems to be very much different than the theophanies in other accounts and it is even stressed that what passed in front of Moses was powerful enough to kill Moses just by looking upon it.

So are we to say this is a manifestation of his glory grouped with the other theophanies and he does not have a human body? are we to say it is some sort of incarnation though not Christ? are we to say that he does exist in human form pre-incarnation of Christ? What substance did Moses encounter of God here?

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 / Exodus 13:21 / Exodus 33:7-11

Focus on 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 and tell me if you see it. I only say this because I don't want to force the text. I would rather you see it. :)

I promise this will excite you... when you see it.

Hebrews 1:3 is a tip, as well.... Ask yourself.. What is "Radiance". (light or heat as emitted or reflected by something.) ... effulgence (the quality of being bright and sending out rays of light)
 
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it is just "I am" but it is Christ identifying himself as God as this is the same identity God uses from Exodus 3:14. There is no need to change the word to "God" or "I am God" the two references are instantly linked and this seems to be clear. We know this because the next moment the Jews picked up stones to throw at him because such a claim would be a capital offence (of course if untrue)

I think they did it because Jesus said that he has been before Abraham came into existence.

The Jews therefore said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been [“eimi” = “have been”]."
John 8:57-58
 
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