Earning favor

A Christian can earn favor with God by doing good works.


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Hammster

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Nope. Christ said it quite simple:

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

He didn't say "because you are sheep." He said "Because..." and then listed ACTIONS which the sheep had done. Those actions are what made them sheep. Sorry, but Scripture trumps your opinion every day of the week. If the Scripture says it was because of their actions, then you are wrong no matter how badly you want to be right.
But what you are missing is that He separates them before telling them what they had done. They didn’t even know what they did. Why? Because they are sheep and sheep do what they do by nature. They hear His voice and follow.
 
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Grip Docility

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I get table flipping mad when people don't take Scripture at its plain meaning when they say that is what they do. Why? Because it is the height of hypocrisy. You don't take Scripture at its plain words. You 100% do not believe that we are "justified by works, and not by faith alone", which is the simple, frill-free statement of James. He said he was talking about salvation. Not judaizers. He never once mentions even one thing that they believe. He does, however, mention a metric ton of things that Gnostics believe and shows how very wrong they are. But since Sola Fide is a Crypto-Gnostic belief, anything that challenges the tradition of Sola Fide, even if it is Scripture, is wrong.

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is the key. Jesus called Pharisees and Teachers of the Law (Rich Men). He called sinners (Poor Men). (Matthew 21:32)(Luke 18:9-14)(Luke 15:1-2)

Leper’s were used by Jesus in many of the Gospel writings, to signify our true Carnal state. Isaiah 1:18 foretold this. The red and white of Isaiah 1:18 has a foundation in Leper’s. Also, the Clothing Of leper’s were as torn as their flesh... and people shunned them as Pariahs. Shunned? Just like Sinners... but what did Jesus say... Luke 5:32

If a person doesn’t understand the Red Letters... James and Paul go over their head like a Parable.

This thesis is proven every day.

James exalts the Royal Command (Love your Neighbor) and a quick read of Matthew 23 reveals this...

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
Matthew 23:23 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:23 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Would you like to see the part where Jesus blasts the Pharisees (Judaizers) for devouring widows houses in Matthew 23? James says something about pure religion if I remember correctly...

[14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You devour widows’ houses and make long prayers just for show. This is why you will receive a harsher punishment.]
Matthew 23:14 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:14 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

James discusses how the Rich man lays Charges Against the Messianic Congregation He is writing to... (James 2:6-7). ... which is a reference to the Jews that want to kill the Jews converted to Christ.

Rich man are Judaizers (Matthew 23)
Rahab was a Prostitute
Poor men are Sinners

James 3:14 looks interesting. Humility

Jesus does Good, we do well.

Have you contemplated that all the workers get paid the same pay? Matthew 20:1-16

James 3:17 —- The word variance here binds to “Impartial” And again links to the overarching theme of James which is the Fruits Of Faith in Christ... and are not a rebuttal to Faith Alone, but as I originally stated, a mocking the Phylactery lengthening Judaizers And a reassurance to the persecuted Jewish Early Church.

James 5:1-6 specifies the “Murder” Of the One that came for the Lost Sheep Of the House Of Israel, yet was innocent. It also vindicates my Thesis.

Later on, We find people are “spying” on Christian freedom.

Example... Paul could fry up some delicious Bacon and James could too... The (Judaizers) answered to the Pharisees... and since Paul revealed what the Pharisee agenda towards the BOC was (IE... Kill them)... we know that James is speaking in the presence of Converted Jews, with the risk of being Murdered for speaking about Faith in Jesus, (Alone), Salvation.

It all comes back to John 6:28-29.

I didn’t even Exegete all 5 chapters, line by line. And if you would like to press the issue, maybe we could both Exegete James back and forth.

My final discussion point, for this post will be the emboldened portion of your quote. So, Paul Exalts the Royal Command and 1 Corinthians 13 is the key to James... and He teaches Faith Alone, Salvation so extensively and rails against the Old Law so completely (The Law is Good, but Utilizing it for Salvation or Judgment is bad... Stone tablets too)... that my Jewish friends are disgusted with Paul.

Galatians 1:17-20 is super important because James, Paul And Peter meet up. Peter crowns Pauls doctrine as the most complex in scripture 2 Peter 3:16, and James is called The Lord’s Brother.

Have you noticed Paul and James speak in Parables?

Jesus reveals why He speaks in Parables. It’s the same reason Judaizers cling to James but are actually shamed by what he is teaching. Matthew 13:44-46

The Parable of the Seed Sower contains that gem of Scripture.

All blessings in The BEST Table Flipper Of them all to you (Matthew 21:12-17... which is only two chapters away from Matthew 23.)
 
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Hammster

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He separates them before, and then explains why they were receiving eternal life. Doing those things is what made them sheep. It never says ANY of the ADDED TRADITIONS which you add into it because you HAVE to believe that was what was meant in order to prop up your belief. But if you keep the context of Romans 2 in mind, it seals the deal. The Lord renders unto each man ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. Not according to some arbitrary species.
Yes, He explains why. They are sheep. Sheep act according to their nature. Sheep hear and follow (John 10). There’s no tradition here. Just scripture.
 
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Grip Docility

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Conversation over. Post #142 has been asked and answered. Posts 144 and 147 remain unaddressed. Conversation with Grip Docility is as beneficial as bashing my head against a brick.

Maybe because I’m built on THE ROCK. :D

Your post #144 was contextually empty and employed unstudied Debate Response.

If you are suggesting Paul’s approach is “Gnostic” And James disagrees with Paul... it would be nice to hear this from you, instead of have to read into posts that do not address topical material.

I am willing to Exegete the Entire book of James verse for verse back and forth with you, one chapter at a time.
 
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Grip Docility

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The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is the key. Jesus called Pharisees and Teachers of the Law (Rich Men). He called sinners (Poor Men). (Matthew 21:32)(Luke 18:9-14)(Luke 15:1-2)

Leper’s were used by Jesus in many of the Gospel writings, to signify our true Carnal state. Isaiah 1:18 foretold this. The red and white of Isaiah 1:18 has a foundation in Leper’s. Also, the Clothing Of leper’s were as torn as their flesh... and people shunned them as Pariahs. Shunned? Just like Sinners... but what did Jesus say... Luke 5:32

If a person doesn’t understand the Red Letters... James and Paul go over their head like a Parable.

This thesis is proven every day.

James exalts the Royal Command (Love your Neighbor) and a quick read of Matthew 23 reveals this...

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
Matthew 23:23 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:23 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Would you like to see the part where Jesus blasts the Pharisees (Judaizers) for devouring widows houses in Matthew 23? James says something about pure religion if I remember correctly...

[14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You devour widows’ houses and make long prayers just for show. This is why you will receive a harsher punishment.]
Matthew 23:14 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:14 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

James discusses how the Rich man lays Charges Against the Messianic Congregation He is writing to... (James 2:6-7). ... which is a reference to the Jews that want to kill the Jews converted to Christ.

Rich man are Judaizers (Matthew 23)
Rahab was a Prostitute
Poor men are Sinners

James 3:14 looks interesting. Humility

Jesus does Good, we do well.

Have you contemplated that all the workers get paid the same pay? Matthew 20:1-16

James 3:17 —- The word variance here binds to “Impartial” And again links to the overarching theme of James which is the Fruits Of Faith in Christ... and are not a rebuttal to Faith Alone, but as I originally stated, a mocking the Phylactery lengthening Judaizers And a reassurance to the persecuted Jewish Early Church.

James 5:1-6 specifies the “Murder” Of the One that came for the Lost Sheep Of the House Of Israel, yet was innocent. It also vindicates my Thesis.

Later on, We find people are “spying” on Christian freedom.

Example... Paul could fry up some delicious Bacon and James could too... The (Judaizers) answered to the Pharisees... and since Paul revealed what the Pharisee agenda towards the BOC was (IE... Kill them)... we know that James is speaking in the presence of Converted Jews, with the risk of being Murdered for speaking about Faith in Jesus, (Alone), Salvation.

It all comes back to John 6:28-29.

I didn’t even Exegete all 5 chapters, line by line. And if you would like to press the issue, maybe we could both Exegete James back and forth.

My final discussion point, for this post will be the emboldened portion of your quote. So, Paul Exalts the Royal Command and 1 Corinthians 13 is the key to James... and He teaches Faith Alone, Salvation so extensively and rails against the Old Law so completely (The Law is Good, but Utilizing it for Salvation or Judgment is bad... Stone tablets too)... that my Jewish friends are disgusted with Paul.

Galatians 1:17-20 is super important because James, Paul And Peter meet up. Peter crowns Pauls doctrine as the most complex in scripture 2 Peter 3:16, and James is called The Lord’s Brother.

Have you noticed Paul and James speak in Parables?

Jesus reveals why He speaks in Parables. It’s the same reason Judaizers cling to James but are actually shamed by what he is teaching. Matthew 13:44-46

The Parable of the Seed Sower contains that gem of Scripture.

All blessings in The BEST Table Flipper Of them all to you (Matthew 21:12-17... which is only two chapters away from Matthew 23.)

Wow. Congratulations on contorting Scripture into a giant pretzel. Is this what you call taking scripture at the clear meaning? I've seen better logic in a Half Life 3 confirmed riff than this had.

This is "Ad Hominem" and discredits all following points, unless this is supported.

Keep it simple. What does JAMES say that JAMES is talking about.

James is writing to the Diaspora.

Proof: James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

Not how is there a coincidental connection to a group that wasn't the Judaizers that you then later make an even more ambiguous connection to yet another ambiguous connection to finally coming around to the Judaizers, who were already dealt with in Acts 15 and by Paul. Jerusalem had kicked that problem with the Council of Jerusalem. James didn't have that problem to deal with because his particular flock already got the message.

James is addressing the conflict within Jewish Christian Converts that are desiring to abandon Christianity... for either Judaism or Judaized Christianity.

Proof: James 1:6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
9 Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position.
10But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower.
11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

If the best you can get is mistreating widows, you should realize that the Gnostics didn't take care of the widows either, because it was the mind and spirit that mattered, and if a widow physically died, she would shed her physical body for a spiritual existence apart from the corrupt matter that they believe was evil. But not only that, but James 2 is a direct attack against the Gnostic heresy. Gnostics taught that what you did in the flesh didn't matter at all, so long as you possessed esoteric special "saving knowledge". You didn't have to do good deeds. You didn't have to obey the commands of Christ. You shouldn't take Communion AT ALL or even be Baptized AT ALL.

This is completely unsubstantiated argument... as Gnosticisicm is not the topic and your use of the word here is completely unsupported within the book of James. You provide zero scripture to back this posit.

Sorry I don't use such convoluted and unnecessary steps through prooftext-heaven like you do. That would be a waste of time and in my frank opinion it is nothing short of disrespecting Scripture to twist it to mean whatever you want instead of looking at the HISTORICAL CONTEXT of the text.

You even say that you haven't substantiated your argument with scripture and mock using scripture to proof scripture.

The historical context of the text is within the text, sociological studies, archaeology, the OT and the NT. Are you saying that the bible shouldn't be used to proof the Bible?

This is more Ad Hominem.

and If James was writing against Judaizers, he NEVER would have written the portion about faith and works AT ALL. It would have been completely unnecessary. His text would have covered the same points already covered in Galatians. Judaizers would have taken James's text as a confirmation of their beliefs. Because they believed already that a man is justified by works, and not by faith AT ALL.

This is the premise of removing James 2:26 out of context and building doctrine off of one verse ripped from context, which is exactly what you are claiming other parties are doing.

Only an idiot would use James 2 to dispute Judaizers. And James was not an idiot.

I will be kind, but this is more Ad Hominem. My point is vindicated.

This type of Debate Style is what we call Ad Hominem, Opinion and Emoting.

The argument employed is clearly based on Eisogesis and personal Bias.

The Post this Argument is replied to was meticulously exegeted through the sound evaluation of Jesus, James, Peter And Paul... while providing evidence in Galatians 1:17-20 that this was not only acceptable, but scripturally supported.

The use of Loaded Labels like Gnostic are completely unfounded as only Rabbinic Jews employ such arguments against Paul... through terms like “Hellenistic Judaism”.

This argumentative response is void of substance, focused address of a single point made or any concession to the scriptures utilized.

In short... it is a rapid response, that lacks any necessary composition to refute, question or suggest comprehension of... the Post it addresses.

Post #142 remains unaddressed

Dude, I was referring to an actual historical heresy called Gnosticism, which eventually grew into Marcionism under Marcion and Valentinus. That isn't a loaded label. What we have here is the Fallacy Fallacy. You call what I wrote a fallacy so that you don't have to deal with it.

Either go back and respond to my post, or admit that you're not even going to try. Stop whining about fallacies that are only there in your head. Don't presume to tell me that Gnosticism is a loaded term when I am referring to a real heresy in real history to which a real James was really responding to. There were several forms of Gnosticism over the first two centuries of the Church, starting with Docetism, which originally split off from the Christian Church over the issue of whether Jesus was truly human. Docetists did not believe that Jesus was truly human, and taught that He was a spirit that appeared to be human, but did not have any physical substance at all. This is why Luke especially included very physical descriptions in his gospel, describing the physical separation of the "water and the blood" which flowed from Christ when He was stabbed with the spear.

It is for this reason that the book of James is so focused on practice oriented living faith. His book is a practical guide on how to live because he was focused on teaching that the way in which we live is important. If you want a book which is focused on Judaizers, you should look to the books of Galatians and Hebrews.

Post 142 was nuked from orbit. Perhaps you should go with a straightforward approach instead of bouncing from passage to passage like a child with ADHD after he's been given five cans of Red Bull.

Now “Grand Standing is being employed”..

Post #142 remains unaddressed.

Conversation over. Post #142 has been asked and answered. Posts 144 and 147 remain unaddressed. Conversation with Grip Docility is as beneficial as bashing my head against a brick.

Maybe because I’m built on THE ROCK. :D

Your post #144 was contextually empty and employed unstudied Debate Response.

If you are suggesting Paul’s approach is “Gnostic” And James disagrees with Paul... it would be nice to hear this from you, instead of have to read into posts that do not address topical material.

I am willing to Exegete the Entire book of James verse for verse back and forth with you, one chapter at a time.

Post 142 is being side stepped by what appears to be Defamation of Paul’s stance, via James.

All replies to it, as clearly seen in thread History reveal an empty reply to Post Posit.

The Argument employed in post 142 was even reasserted and ignored. (Post 146)

To contest Paul with James and ignore Post 142’s underpinning Posit... suggests loose handling of Scripture.
 
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Grip Docility

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I do not relegate that Scripture to the Diaspora is to be ignored by the BOC.

I further state Jesus’ is the key to understanding how Paul and James are saying the identical thing.

Faith Alone is substantiated by James, with a response to Pharisee/Judaizing individuals that are contesting Christianity... By James Saying the Works Faith Alone Produces are superior to “Works + Faith”... salvation.

This is an easy matter to verify and I have patiently supported my argument.

Post #142 stands... and as a sarcastic person that could have employed insulting verbiage in response to the “Ad Hominem” that was contained within Post #144... I believe my Debate demeanor is to be commended.

I will continue to reassert that Paul, James, Jesus and Even Peter are supporting Faith, Alone.

I will further more set this as my standard of argument to address what is being said against Faith Alone.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, @sculleywr
 
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Grip Docility

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Because Jesus follows your rules, right? Your rules are the box in which Jesus exists. Sorry, between your tradition and a clean, straight reading of the text, I'll go with the straight reading of the text unless you can show me one time wherein sheep naturally help each other out at the level that Christ is saying the saved were doing.

The whole point of Christ's metaphor in John is referring to something sheep actually do in a herd. They recognize their master's voice and will follow it. But sheep do not naturally help other sheep. There has never been a time when a sheep will give another sheep grass to eat, or water to drink.

You are overextending the metaphor to an absolutely ridiculous amount. How about we just read it as it is. Christ said "because you saw me hungry and gave me food..."

Clean, clear, simple. No changing gears. No adding frills. Just the straight statement of Christ without trying to find some way in which we can get out of the requirements that Christ gave us.

The reason, @Grip Docility, that you need such a long and complicated set of reasoning to discover the teaching that literally nobody saw in Scripture for 1600 years is because unlike you, they took Scripture the way it was written, which was not as a systematic theology looking to give people free tickets to heaven regardless of anything which they might do in the future. I'm going to stop you at the beginning and say that if you're looking for a reason to justify your decision to bring in two million pages of reading (obvious exaggeration) to interpret one simple passage which needs exactly NONE of what you were bringing in to reinterpret James's passage to mean the exact opposite of what the denotative meaning of the words say, you had better explain to me how you think that the people to whom James was writing were going to have access to all of those passages in a time when the cost to copy even one of those letters of Paul's was similar to buying a brand new Ford Mustang today, paid to a man who was likely to have ties with the government if you weren't careful. The government in that day was pretty busy trying to hunt down these Christians, and so hiring a scribe to copy texts written by Christians was a very dangerous gamble. So tell me, when do you think they had the time and money to reference that many books.

If you're not interpreting the text in the way which the original audience was intended to receive the text, then you're failing right out of the gate. I want you to put yourself in the shoes of the recipients. How do you interpret this when you have, at most, 1 copy of a letter from one of the Apostles. These epistles were not intended to be interwoven in the way you are doing. They were intended to be used as a single stand alone letter. interpret them in kind.

My premise is easily proven with Galatians 1:17-20

The James contextual misnomer has been shutdown, until an answer to what I carefully laid out and proofed, is provided. What I have said is biblical, simple and proofed.

The James Work's (Contextual Error) group, have yet to support premise in context.

I even showed the original audience and the verses that proofed my posit. I, by the grace of God, am a cool headed debater, most of the time.

The one thing I don't really appreciate is when an individual Grand Stands on disproven posits, addressed by Overwhelmingly supported counter Evidence.

My Post 155 remains a fully linked collection of evidence that supports my stance in objection to what is being posited against Paul, James, Peter and Jesus' Doctrine. (John 6:28-29 ; John 6:66 ; Romans 4 ; Ephesians 2 ; James 2 ; Galatians 3 ; 2 Peter 3 ; Galatians 1 ; and so on...)
 
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Hammster

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Because Jesus follows your rules, right? Your rules are the box in which Jesus exists. Sorry, between your tradition and a clean, straight reading of the text, I'll go with the straight reading of the text unless you can show me one time wherein sheep naturally help each other out at the level that Christ is saying the saved were doing.

The whole point of Christ's metaphor in John is referring to something sheep actually do in a herd. They recognize their master's voice and will follow it. But sheep do not naturally help other sheep. There has never been a time when a sheep will give another sheep grass to eat, or water to drink.

You are overextending the metaphor to an absolutely ridiculous amount. How about we just read it as it is. Christ said "because you saw me hungry and gave me food..."

Clean, clear, simple. No changing gears. No adding frills. Just the straight statement of Christ without trying to find some way in which we can get out of the requirements that Christ gave us.

The reason, @Grip Docility, that you need such a long and complicated set of reasoning to discover the teaching that literally nobody saw in Scripture for 1600 years is because unlike you, they took Scripture the way it was written, which was not as a systematic theology looking to give people free tickets to heaven regardless of anything which they might do in the future. I'm going to stop you at the beginning and say that if you're looking for a reason to justify your decision to bring in two million pages of reading (obvious exaggeration) to interpret one simple passage which needs exactly NONE of what you were bringing in to reinterpret James's passage to mean the exact opposite of what the denotative meaning of the words say, you had better explain to me how you think that the people to whom James was writing were going to have access to all of those passages in a time when the cost to copy even one of those letters of Paul's was similar to buying a brand new Ford Mustang today, paid to a man who was likely to have ties with the government if you weren't careful. The government in that day was pretty busy trying to hunt down these Christians, and so hiring a scribe to copy texts written by Christians was a very dangerous gamble. So tell me, when do you think they had the time and money to reference that many books.

If you're not interpreting the text in the way which the original audience was intended to receive the text, then you're failing right out of the gate. I want you to put yourself in the shoes of the recipients. How do you interpret this when you have, at most, 1 copy of a letter from one of the Apostles. These epistles were not intended to be interwoven in the way you are doing. They were intended to be used as a single stand alone letter. interpret them in kind.
Okay.
 
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The thread isn’t about delighting God. It’s about earning favor.
We have already been blessed with every blessing in heavenly places. We have all the favour that God can give us in Christ. It is not earned at all. It is the gift of God. We do good works out of gratitude for the goodness, kindness of God, and for sending us His Son to pay the debt that we could never have paid.
 
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tampasteve

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MOD HAT ON

This thread has had a clean. Posts that were flaming/goading, or in a string of replies from a flame/goad have been removed.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Grip Docility

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You won't find the word Judaizer in the book of James, either, but you feel completely justified in assuming that he was combating Judaizers with zero scripture offered thus far to support it directly without any assumptions. The assumption that he was replying to Judaizers must be established before you go saying that he wasn't replying to Gnosticism.

If you had taken time to actually demonstrate something that was unique to Gnosticism as I had done in showing the doctrines of Gnosticism which are directly opposed to James 2 and have done for a second time including links showing their belief structure and quotes from Irenaeus, who was directly opposed to Gnosticism as it appeared under the heretics Marcion and Valentinus; you would have grounds to say this. As it stands, this is a nonanswer. It doesn't address what it is responding to in the slightest.



You didn't use Scripture to proof scripture. You used prooftexts cherrypicked out of their correct context to replace the context of James's actual intentions. I can use your methods to prove that Jesus Christ is only a man, and not truly God, or to prove that Jesus is a monster with multiple actual faces on one head with seven horns.

Just because you have a fancy method of twisting Scripture doesn't mean you managed to even land in the same country as the right understanding. The historical context shows that the recipients of James's texts never used it once in their responses to Judaizers. If James was really intending it to respond to Judaizers, why is it never used for that purpose? Why is it instead used to preach that what you do in the flesh actually matters?



Dude, I'm using the ENTIRETY of James 2, not just that one verse. You completely ignore the passage which starts the entire Faith/Works discussion and instead decide that you are going to search further afield. What of the following context which you completely ignore?

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
I'm not taking James 2:26 out of context. James states THREE TIMES that a man is JUSTIFIED by works. He said point blank that Abraham was justified by the action of offering up his son. He said point blank that Rahab was justified not by believing that the Jews were right, but by taking in the two spies and sending them out by another way. Then he comes right out and answers the rhetorical question asked in regard to both of them and says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. The context is there FOUR TIMES. He asks the thesis question in verse 14, then asks if the reader would like him to demonstrate how faith without works is useless in verse 20, then says Abraham was justified by works in verse 21, then the same question regarding Rahab in verse 25. Verse 26 is simply the conclusion of the matter. The primary context always outweighs the secondary context. If James says that he is talking about the question of whether or not faith without works can save, then that is what James is talking about. You're transplanting the passage into a book that isn't even IN the Bible by adding Judaizers where they don't belong.



Saying that James was not an idiot is an ad hominem. Taking thing personal are we? Not everything is about you. You never once established which of the primary tenets of Judaizers was attacked. Specifically, where does he address the only points with which the Apostles conflicted with the Judaizers in regards to Circumcision and Food Laws? Judaizers actually were very serious about taking care of the widows, because the Law provides the requirement that you should care for the widows in your family.

Now, go away until you can come back with a reasonable argument that isn't full of unproven assumptions.

Matthew 23 is the key words that James is compiling his condemnation verbiage from.

The book is specifically to the 12 tribes, I.E. Diaspora. James meticulous lays this out in the book.

I desire to recognize your points. I cannot manipulate the scripture to do so. James was Jesus’ brother. It is easy to see James intimately knowing Jesus’s words.

I cited the link between Paul and James, Peter as well... in Galatians.

They are all in harmony about “Sola Fide”, which isn’t a “Reformed” generated doctrine, but a simple foundation from verses such as John 3:16.

I maintain my stance and IMO, have not been countered in any fashion by speculative responses... that are rooted in tradition that is far less old than the actually origin text.
 
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Grip Docility

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You won't find the word Judaizer in the book of James, either, but you feel completely justified in assuming that he was combating Judaizers with zero scripture offered thus far to support it directly without any assumptions. The assumption that he was replying to Judaizers must be established before you go saying that he wasn't replying to Gnosticism.

If you had taken time to actually demonstrate something that was unique to Gnosticism as I had done in showing the doctrines of Gnosticism which are directly opposed to James 2 and have done for a second time including links showing their belief structure and quotes from Irenaeus, who was directly opposed to Gnosticism as it appeared under the heretics Marcion and Valentinus; you would have grounds to say this. As it stands, this is a nonanswer. It doesn't address what it is responding to in the slightest.



You didn't use Scripture to proof scripture. You used prooftexts cherrypicked out of their correct context to replace the context of James's actual intentions. I can use your methods to prove that Jesus Christ is only a man, and not truly God, or to prove that Jesus is a monster with multiple actual faces on one head with seven horns.

Just because you have a fancy method of twisting Scripture doesn't mean you managed to even land in the same country as the right understanding. The historical context shows that the recipients of James's texts never used it once in their responses to Judaizers. If James was really intending it to respond to Judaizers, why is it never used for that purpose? Why is it instead used to preach that what you do in the flesh actually matters?



Dude, I'm using the ENTIRETY of James 2, not just that one verse. You completely ignore the passage which starts the entire Faith/Works discussion and instead decide that you are going to search further afield. What of the following context which you completely ignore?

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
I'm not taking James 2:26 out of context. James states THREE TIMES that a man is JUSTIFIED by works. He said point blank that Abraham was justified by the action of offering up his son. He said point blank that Rahab was justified not by believing that the Jews were right, but by taking in the two spies and sending them out by another way. Then he comes right out and answers the rhetorical question asked in regard to both of them and says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. The context is there FOUR TIMES. He asks the thesis question in verse 14, then asks if the reader would like him to demonstrate how faith without works is useless in verse 20, then says Abraham was justified by works in verse 21, then the same question regarding Rahab in verse 25. Verse 26 is simply the conclusion of the matter. The primary context always outweighs the secondary context. If James says that he is talking about the question of whether or not faith without works can save, then that is what James is talking about. You're transplanting the passage into a book that isn't even IN the Bible by adding Judaizers where they don't belong.



Saying that James was not an idiot is an ad hominem. Taking thing personal are we? Not everything is about you. You never once established which of the primary tenets of Judaizers was attacked. Specifically, where does he address the only points with which the Apostles conflicted with the Judaizers in regards to Circumcision and Food Laws? Judaizers actually were very serious about taking care of the widows, because the Law provides the requirement that you should care for the widows in your family.

Now, go away until you can come back with a reasonable argument that isn't full of unproven assumptions.

I’m going to make a point. At the top of this post, is a quote. That quote has a name within it. It’s your internet debate handle for this site.

If I was to point that name out, then suggest it wasn’t specifying this Post is to you, I would be comedically misleading.

Enter the intro to James, written by James, to the 12 Tribes.

Blue is not Red
Green is not Purple
James is to the 12 Tribes

IJO <~ That stands for In James Opinion, because he wrote it in the Book Of James.
 
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sculleywr

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Matthew 23 is the key words that James is compiling his condemnation verbiage from.

The book is specifically to the 12 tribes, I.E. Diaspora. James meticulous lays this out in the book.

I desire to recognize your points. I cannot manipulate the scripture to do so. James was Jesus’ brother. It is easy to see James intimately knowing Jesus’s words.

I cited the link between Paul and James, Peter as well... in Galatians.

They are all in harmony about “Sola Fide”, which isn’t a “Reformed” generated doctrine, but a simple foundation from verses such as John 3:16.

I maintain my stance and IMO, have not been countered in any fashion by speculative responses... that are rooted in tradition that is far less old than the actually origin text.
Matthew 23 hadn't been WRITTEN when James was writing. It is not speculative to say that James was responding to something that his text actually addresses. It is farcical to even think that he was writing against Judaizers. Sola Fide was first preached in the Reformation. Not a single Christian from the time of the Apostles preached it before them. That isn't speculation. It's a statement of fact.

And if you UNmanipulated Scripture, you would easily see my points. Take Scripture without trying to make it convoluted. Use the DENOTATION ONLY. Don't PRESUME that he is preaching Sola Fide and all the sudden Sola Fide DIES. Scripture taken at its plain sense without lengthy convoluted reasoning that requires a Graduate degree in theology to understand is a nuclear bomb to Sola Fide. The reason that not a single person preached it in any of the 16 centuries prior is because it was first preached by the Reformers.

If Scripture is true, then you should be able to find the doctrines it declares in every generation after Christ. You can't find a single person preaching it in the first three centuries after Christ. You do, however, find people preaching that justification is through obedience to the commands of Christ. Not the Mosaic Law. Not through our own power, but through the power granted to us in the regeneration given to mankind through the Crucifixion.

If sola Fide is what the Apostles taught, then Christ and Jude are both liars. The Faith was not delivered once, but twice. The Gates of Hell not only prevailed against the Church, but completely and utterly destroyed it. Why would I ever desire such a bleak and dismal belief?
 
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Grip Docility

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Matthew 23 hadn't been WRITTEN when James was writing. It is not speculative to say that James was responding to something that his text actually addresses. It is farcical to even think that he was writing against Judaizers. Sola Fide was first preached in the Reformation. Not a single Christian from the time of the Apostles preached it before them. That isn't speculation. It's a statement of fact.

And if you UNmanipulated Scripture, you would easily see my points. Take Scripture without trying to make it convoluted. Use the DENOTATION ONLY. Don't PRESUME that he is preaching Sola Fide and all the sudden Sola Fide DIES. Scripture taken at its plain sense without lengthy convoluted reasoning that requires a Graduate degree in theology to understand is a nuclear bomb to Sola Fide. The reason that not a single person preached it in any of the 16 centuries prior is because it was first preached by the Reformers.

If Scripture is true, then you should be able to find the doctrines it declares in every generation after Christ. You can't find a single person preaching it in the first three centuries after Christ. You do, however, find people preaching that justification is through obedience to the commands of Christ. Not the Mosaic Law. Not through our own power, but through the power granted to us in the regeneration given to mankind through the Crucifixion.

If sola Fide is what the Apostles taught, then Christ and Jude are both liars. The Faith was not delivered once, but twice. The Gates of Hell not only prevailed against the Church, but completely and utterly destroyed it. Why would I ever desire such a bleak and dismal belief?

Non Sequitur.

James was Jesus’ brother.
 
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sculleywr

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Non Sequitur.

James was Jesus’ brother.
That's irrelevant. Just because James was the brother of Christ does not mean that he was present for that passage. He isn't named in the passage so there isn't any reason to simply assume James was there. We know that James, the brother of JOHN was there, the sons of thunder as Christ colorfully put it. But we have no indication that James the brother of Christ was there. Christ preaching something does not mean James ever heard the message directly as an eyewitness. There are many things which I do that my brother never witnessed.

you love to use the fallacy fallacy, don't you. If you don't want to address the content of a post, you simply scream a random fallacy out even if it doesn't even have any logical application to the topic at hand. Now, I will copy it over again for you. Actually address the content of the post. Stop screaming out fallacies and discuss things like an adult.

Matthew 23 hadn't been WRITTEN when James was writing. It is not speculative to say that James was responding to something that his text actually addresses. It is farcical to even think that he was writing against Judaizers. Sola Fide was first preached in the Reformation. Not a single Christian from the time of the Apostles preached it before them. That isn't speculation. It's a statement of fact.

And if you UNmanipulated Scripture, you would easily see my points. Take Scripture without trying to make it convoluted. Use the DENOTATION ONLY. Don't PRESUME that he is preaching Sola Fide and all the sudden Sola Fide DIES. Scripture taken at its plain sense without lengthy convoluted reasoning that requires a Graduate degree in theology to understand is a nuclear bomb to Sola Fide. The reason that not a single person preached it in any of the 16 centuries prior is because it was first preached by the Reformers.

If Scripture is true, then you should be able to find the doctrines it declares in every generation after Christ. You can't find a single person preaching it in the first three centuries after Christ. You do, however, find people preaching that justification is through obedience to the commands of Christ. Not the Mosaic Law. Not through our own power, but through the power granted to us in the regeneration given to mankind through the Crucifixion.

If sola Fide is what the Apostles taught, then Christ and Jude are both liars. The Faith was not delivered once, but twice. The Gates of Hell not only prevailed against the Church, but completely and utterly destroyed it. Why would I ever desire such a bleak and dismal belief?

 
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Grip Docility

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That doesn't support your stance that he was writing against judaizers. Address the content of the post. Stop going off into completely irrelevant side tracks. Stay on topic or establish relevance. Don't play coy. We aren't in fifth grade anymore.

The entire first chapter of James does. It speaks of holding to Faith.

James and Paul are in agreement.
 
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Grip Docility

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That's irrelevant. Just because James was the brother of Christ does not mean that he was present for that passage. He isn't named in the passage so there isn't any reason to simply assume James was there. We know that James, the brother of JOHN was there, the sons of thunder as Christ colorfully put it. But we have no indication that James the brother of Christ was there. Christ preaching something does not mean James ever heard the message directly as an eyewitness. There are many things which I do that my brother never witnessed.

you love to use the fallacy fallacy, don't you. If you don't want to address the content of a post, you simply scream a random fallacy out even if it doesn't even have any logical application to the topic at hand. Now, I will copy it over again for you. Actually address the content of the post. Stop screaming out fallacies and discuss things like an adult.

Matthew 23 hadn't been WRITTEN when James was writing. It is not speculative to say that James was responding to something that his text actually addresses. It is farcical to even think that he was writing against Judaizers. Sola Fide was first preached in the Reformation. Not a single Christian from the time of the Apostles preached it before them. That isn't speculation. It's a statement of fact.

And if you UNmanipulated Scripture, you would easily see my points. Take Scripture without trying to make it convoluted. Use the DENOTATION ONLY. Don't PRESUME that he is preaching Sola Fide and all the sudden Sola Fide DIES. Scripture taken at its plain sense without lengthy convoluted reasoning that requires a Graduate degree in theology to understand is a nuclear bomb to Sola Fide. The reason that not a single person preached it in any of the 16 centuries prior is because it was first preached by the Reformers.

If Scripture is true, then you should be able to find the doctrines it declares in every generation after Christ. You can't find a single person preaching it in the first three centuries after Christ. You do, however, find people preaching that justification is through obedience to the commands of Christ. Not the Mosaic Law. Not through our own power, but through the power granted to us in the regeneration given to mankind through the Crucifixion.

If sola Fide is what the Apostles taught, then Christ and Jude are both liars. The Faith was not delivered once, but twice. The Gates of Hell not only prevailed against the Church, but completely and utterly destroyed it. Why would I ever desire such a bleak and dismal belief?

Non Sequitur use of “irrelevant”.

Your argument was James hadn’t read Matthew 23.

I pointed out that James heard it it from his Brother. (God incarnate)
 
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sculleywr

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The entire first chapter of James does. It speaks of holding to Faith.

James and Paul are in agreement.
It doesn't say Judaizer anywhere in that passage. And while Paul and James certainly are in agreement, you are in agreement with NEITHER. Paul said we are judged according to our ACTIONS in Romans 2. That is not talking about pre-Christ. That is saying ALL men, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek, for there is no partiality with God. As I have said before, you're making up a contradiction where the contradiction is your own as a result of your overly complicated rationalizing. The contradiction is purely with your interpretation. You show me one place where Paul addresses something that isn't also taught by Gnostics in the first century. Something that is specifically taught by Judaizers and not Gnostics. I'll be waiting. I'll die of old age before you succeed.
 
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