Erik Nelson

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Israel Bible Center webinar:

only Essenes and Christians...
  • emphasized the role of the holy spirit
  • perceived believers as comprising a spiritual temple
  • shared all possessions in common
  • traveled light without money, cloaks, etc.
  • emphasized baptism
https://israelbiblecenter.com/jewish-gospels-conference/
 
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FireDragon76

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Both John and the Essenes seem to have denounced the temple-based religion of the time.

It could be those ideas were widely popular in a Jewish counter-culture.
 
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FireDragon76

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Neither Pliny nor Philo nor Josrphus mentions vegetarianism for the Essenes. They were ascetic though, like John the Baptist. The assumption of vegetarianism is a modern one based on reports of their compassion and reverence for life, but it has no actual support.


Paul was a Pharisee and continued to call himself thus after conversion. The fact that Paul was taken in by the other Apostles and his position in the later Church, clearly shows this is no impediment.

Jesus did not act like an Essene. According to all our ancient sources: They kept the Sabbath strictly, were obsessed with purity and kept rigid hierarchies. They opposed feasts and Temple sacrifice. They strictly interpreted the Law. Josephus explains their peculiarities in some detail.

Jesus ate with sinners and foreigners. He saved the adulteress from being stoned. He allowed his followers to pluck wheat on the Sabbath and healed on it. He went to the Temple and praised those giving alms there. He turned the water to wine at Cana. Very little of what Jesus did is Essene-like.

The early Church did baptise, but the Jews already practiced ritual mikveh immersions. Similarly the sending out of disciples in twos and the messianic content of Jesus's ministry is not specific to the Essenes either.

This just sounds like an attempt at Rejection of Paul's teachings by forcing an ill-fitting connection between Jesus and the Essenes. If anything, of the three/four schools of Second Temple Judaism, Jesus's teachings fits the Pharisees best, although not perfectly. Christianity is obviously a hybrid of them all as Jesus brought the Law into fulfillment.

Saying Jesus was closest to the pharisees is more or less a given, but says too little. There is lilkely a significant difference between what Jesus taught, and what became Rabbinic Judaism. Jesus was obviously too radical to be accepted by the pharisees (yet at the same time, probably saw himself as being faithful). The conflict Jesus had with authorities over Sabbath keeping, for instance, is reminiscent of the conflicts that Judaism itself has to this day over similar issues, with Jews divided between conservative and liberal interpretations of Torah and tradition.
 
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Erik Nelson

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NIV First-Century Study Bible

Matthew 16:21

Suffer many things. The concept of redemptive suffering was already present in the first century, probably inspired by Isa 53. Some of the initial Maccabean fighters (167 bc) were killed by the Greeks because they refused to fight on the Sabbath. These were some of the first Jewish martyrs. The Dead Sea Scrolls community praised this suffering Isaiah figure in a few of their hymns. They also combined the suffering servant with a divine or angel-like Messiah before this was the common way of understanding Jesus’ role.
 
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Jonaitis

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John the Baptist is an enigmatic figure, the Forerunner, the Voice in the wilderness. I have often seen it claimed nowadays that he was an Essene.

Now there is some evidence in its favour:
1. He baptised in water. The Essenes practised immersion as well. Both seem to have expected purity thereafter, a change in the person's life. John practised a Baptism of Repentance and forgiveness of Sins.
2. John was active at the River Jordan, while Pliny records that the Essenes lived around the Dead Sea. Thus geographically it fits as well.
3. John had a group of followers similar to an Essene sect.
4. John the Baptist spoke of the one to come after him. Essene groups seem to have had a lot of messianic content.
5. John practised severe asceticism in diet and lifestyle like many Essene groups.

Against it:
1. John the Baptist was a public figure and widely seen as a holy man, to such an extent that there was an outcry when he was killed and calamities that befell Herod Antipas blamed on his murder. Essenes were secretive and kept to themselves.
2. Josephus never calls John an Essene.
3. His followers do not seem to follow the strict hierarchy we see Essene groups adopt.
4. He is never explicitly called an Essene in the New Testament.

Ambigious evidence:
1. His father Zechariah was a temple priest. Essenes were largely opposed to the Temple service as corrupted. This can be taken either that he was of the Temple or that he rejected the veniality thereof that he saw from his father's life. There is an extra-biblical story that his parents were killed and he grew up an orphan in the wilderness. This can be interpreted either way.
2. Mandaean sects that revere him have some Essene tendencies, but this may simply be from Syncreticism.

This is a subject I would like some discussion on. I tend to discount the Essene connection myself, but there is a lot of evidence backing it up though.
If he was an Essene, then it would explain some Essene ideas that people pick up in early Christianity - which may derive from some of his former followers like Andrew. I have even seen people try to categorise Jesus as an Essene recently based on Messianism and connection to John, something I think holds little water, but I think this an important topic in understanding the mileau of the gospels.

The only other place I've read about the Essenes is Josephus' account, and they sound very monastic and leaning toward Greek philosophical views. I couldn't see John the Baptist follow them, unless there were some who didn't hold to certain things like the rest (like how some didn't see marriage as something inherently wrong).

When I read about them in the the Wars of the Jews, I was curious as to know how he knew about their beliefs if it requires an oath-bound member of the community to have access to that knowledge? Did someone fall out and tell it to others? Josephus has either a private account or making general assumptions: the first would imply second hand knowledge of the possibility he was told partial truth (unless that account was accurate in the minutest points of their main gig), the latter implies the obvious.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The only other place I've read about the Essenes is Josephus' account, and they sound very monastic and leaning toward Greek philosophical views. I couldn't see John the Baptist follow them, unless there were some who didn't hold to certain things like the rest (like how some didn't see marriage as something inherently wrong).

When I read about them in the the Wars of the Jews, I was curious as to know how he knew about their beliefs if it requires an oath-bound member of the community to have access to that knowledge? Did someone fall out and tell it to others? Josephus has either a private account or making general assumptions: the first would imply second hand knowledge of the possibility he was told partial truth (unless that account was accurate in the minutest points of their main gig), the latter implies the obvious.
Some people assume the Qumran sect may be Essenes, so that is one place to derive some potential information from. Pliny the Elder mentions them in his Natural History, and Philo mentions the Therapeutae that are likely Essenes, too. Along with Josephus, those are our sources on them.

According to Josephus, the Essenes were very strict and expelled members that failed to live up to their standards. So there were probably many ex-Essenes about. In fact, John the Essene that led forces in the Jewish War account was probably an ex-Essene, as his active political and military role would not be in keeping with the ethos they otherwise maintained, of strict purity and such. But that is of course, just speculation. Our sources aren't clear enough or of sufficient volume to be sure of such things.
 
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Erik Nelson

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NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

Ac 9:2 ... the Way. It is also not surprising that a group that believed it preached the true divine path would be called this; the Qumran community called itself this too.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Ac 9:2 ... the Way. It is also not surprising that a group that believed it preached the true divine path would be called this; the Qumran community called itself this too.
Many groups called themselves the Way. It is natural if you believe you are following something, to call your beliefs the Way of. Buddhism calls itself the way of the Buddha, or Taoism speaks of the Way too. Even Stoicism is often framed as the Via or road.

As they note, it isn't surprising that the Christians used the term, but that does not necessarily imply Essenic influence either.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Many groups called themselves the Way. It is natural if you believe you are following something, to call your beliefs the Way of. Buddhism calls itself the way of the Buddha, or Taoism speaks of the Way too. Even Stoicism is often framed as the Via or road.

As they note, it isn't surprising that the Christians used the term, but that does not necessarily imply Essenic influence either.
Of those you listed, Essene connections would be the most likely?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Of those you listed, Essene connections would be the most likely?
Most likely if we have to assume a connection, but I hardly think them necessary as such. This is very tenuous to my mind, and that Cultural Background Study Bible also is not asserting that there is any.
 
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Erik Nelson

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According to the book, The Messiah's portrait in the Thanach by Michael Heiser, The Essene Community at Qumran. Called the Messiah the son of God, the son of the most high
Essene connection.jpeg
 
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mark kennedy

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John the Baptist doesn't strike me as a prophet that would join a community like that. He spent most of his time in the wilderness eating locusts and wild honey and preaching repentance, which makes him a pretty typical prophet.
 
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I don't think that there's enough information about John the Baptist for us to be able to put together a very accurate image of him.

I don't think that there's enough information about John the Baptist for us to be able to put together a very accurate image of him.






Bluestacks Kodi Lucky Patcher
 
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