Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

parousia70 said:

The same Jewish state that has Arab, Muslim Government officials?

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Most nations have such. What's your point? If I have a Chinese dinner guest does that mean I'm not Norwegian.

OldWiseGuy said:

Of course.

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Would you care to enlighten us as to what you believe it is?
and if so, can you name a single Jew today who passes that test?

parousia70 said:

Would you care to enlighten us as to what you believe it is?
and if so, can you name a single Jew today who passes that test?

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Being a Jew "inwardly" doesn't mean genetically. Sounds like you have set yourself up as the sole arbiter of Jewishness.

OldWiseGuy said:

Most nations have such. What's your point?

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My point is that Modern Israel has no relationship beyond name and geography to the pre desolation Nation. They aren't the same people genetically, they do not have the same government nor do they practice the same religion.
So what does that make them?

If I have a Chinese dinner guest does that mean I'm not Norwegian.

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The Pre-Desolation Hebrew theocracy of Israel, the one folks like you claim was "reborn" in 1948, had no such non-Hebrew government officials among the Saducees, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Priests and Scribes, etc....

What changed?

OldWiseGuy said:

Being a Jew "inwardly" doesn't mean genetically. Sounds like you have set yourself up as the sole arbiter of Jewishness.

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That does not answer the question.

Scripture is the arbiter of True Jewishness.

What sayeth Scripture on what it takes to be a Jew?

parousia70 said:

My point is that Modern Israel has no relationship beyond name and geography to the pre desolation Nation. They arent the same people, they do not have the same government nor do they practice the same religion.
So what does that make them?

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The prophecied remnant.

parousia70 said:

The Pre-Desolation Hebrew theocracy of Israel, the one folks like you claim was "reborn" in 1948, had no such non-Hebrew government officials among the Saducees, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Priests and Scribes, etc....

What changed?

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Who is claiming a 'rebirth' of anything. A ragtag band of Jews returned to Palestine. There is no priesthood, no temple, fortold. What is foretold is the trouble they would cause to the other descendants of Israel.

parousia70 said:

That does not answer the question.

Scripture is the arbiter of True Jewishness.

What sayeth Scripture on what it takes to be a Jew?

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You tell me. And do you have any plans to inform those living in the State of Israel that they are not really Jews?

OldWiseGuy said:

do you have any plans to inform those living in the State of Israel that they are not really Jews?

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I don't need to.
They themselves already admit exactly that:

"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . ."

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, vol. 3, p. 50).

OldWiseGuy said:

[It makes them] The prophecied remnant.

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How so?
How can people with no relationship whatsoever to the pre-desolation peoples possibly be a "prophesied remnant" of them?

OldWiseGuy said:

You tell me.[what the bible says it takes to be a Jew]

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Hmmm... ok, but I thought you claimed to already know?

Take a look at
Genesis 17:13-14, Exodus 12:48
For starters.

You, on the other hand, don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes! I agree you are God's Israel of Scripture, you must be, for you say so..."

Someone merely makes the claim and "viola", you believe them without question or scrutiny?

parousia70 said:

I don't need to.
They themselves already admit exactly that:

"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . ."

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, vol. 3, p. 50).




How so?
How can people with no relationship to the pre-desolation peoples be the "prophesied remnant" of them?

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We've already determined that there is no genetic test for Jewishness specifically. Jewish is more cultural and religious than genetic. All we have are the prophecies, no science. That's good enough for me.

parousia70 said:

Hmmm... ok, but I thought you claimed to already know?

Take a look at
Genesis 17:13-14, Exodus 12:48
For starters.

You, on the other hand, don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes! I agree you are God's Israel of Scripture, you must be, for you say so..."

Someone merely makes the claim and "viola", you believe them without question or scrutiny?

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I'm a firm believer in British Israelism, which makes perfect sense to me.

You have yet to explain what your point is in all this attempted debunking.

parousia70 said:

Take a look at
Genesis 17:13-14, Exodus 12:48

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I believe that God, through the teaching of Peter, changed that. Remember that the laws of the OC only obtained while Israel was a nation. When Israel and Judah went into captivity all the rituals were suspended, and under the NC they were abolished.

Copperhead said:

There is another aspect to this that I think many do not consider and stepping back and looking at the overall picture could enlighten.

If I am wrong in my position, what have I really lost? After all, Joel 3 and Matthew 25 are pretty clear that the nations will be judged on how they treated Israel. And it doesn't go well for those who diss them. And we are told to love others as we love ourselves. So even if I am wrong in my position, I see no downside positionally before the Lord.

If, however, those that choose to negate modern Israel and it turns out they are indeed a fulfillment, then the consequences are far greater. Can one be positionally in favor with the Lord if they choose to deny what He has said? If the Lord has placed such a standard as "I will bless them that bless you and curse those who curse you" regarding the Hebrew people, then what is the result of negating them? When one takes a look at Joel 3, Matthew 25:21-44, and Matthew 7:21-23 side by side, it can lead one to be a little cautious.

I see nothing but a win-win for my position. If I am wrong, then I still loved my neighbor as myself in regards to Israel. If I am right, then I followed the prescription to bless Israel. In both cases, I am positionally in tune with what the Lord has commanded. Nothing lost and everything to gain.

But y'all choose your own path to take. I will not be held accountable for that.

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Very impressive; Copperhead.
But where you fail is in your application of what the Bible actually says and in your perception of who the people who call themselves Jews, really are.
Re the Jewish people, Jesus described them and what their fate will be. Matthew 3:7-10, Revelation 3:9, Luke 19:27. And don't say; That applies to the Jewish leadership, because the Jewish common people cursed themselves. Matthew 27:25

The major fail of Bible exegesis today, is with people who apply all the prophesies about Israel to the Jewish people. This simply cannot be right, for a number of reasons.
No; it is to all the faithful Christian peoples, the Overcomers for God, literally the Israelites of God, to whom the Blessings pertain. Isn't that perfectly logical and sensible, as well as scripturally confirmed. Galatians 3:26-29, & 6:14-16, Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 3:6, +

So your thinking that even if you are wrong, at least you did the 'love your neighbor' thing, is all very well but you are still in the quagmire of false teachings and the inability to understand the truths of God's plans for His people.
By the way; do NOT think that I or anyone who points out the prophesies that clearly say Judah will be judged and punished, are Jew haters. That is a very wrong and serious accusation, that does , in fact; make the accuser a hater of his brethren.

OldWiseGuy said:

But "you" only means 1st person pronoun, never plural.

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You told us in post 406 "The pronoun you is collective/plural." You were right, then.

From Genesis 49:1 Hebrew:

853 [e]
’eṯ·ḵem
אֶתְכֶ֖ם
you
DirObjM | 2mp

2mp means "second person masculine plural".

OldWiseGuy said:

We've already determined that there is no genetic test for Jewishness specifically. Jewish is more cultural and religious than genetic. All we have are the prophecies, no science. That's good enough for me.

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Does that mean that one can become one of the Chosen People by converting to Talmudism and/or eating kosher?

OldWiseGuy said:

I'm a firm believer in British Israelism, which makes perfect sense to me.

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This British Israelism?:
British Israelism - Wikipedia

Who's central tenets have been refuted by evidence from modern archaeological,[3] ethnological,[4] genetic, and linguistic research.[5] ?

You have yet to explain what your point is in all this attempted debunking.

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My point is simply to provide support for my answer of "NO" to question posed as the topic for this thread.

OldWiseGuy said:

I'm a firm believer in British Israelism, which makes perfect sense to me

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"Most Christians regard it as a cult."

OldWiseGuy said:

We've already determined that there is no genetic test for Jewishness specifically.

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Indeed we have.

Jewish is more cultural and religious than genetic.

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Ok...so since Modern Jews do not follow the same religion as the pre desolation Hebrew people did... then what?

It's just Cultural and nothing else?

And as JGR asked, are you making the claim that one can become a member of "God's Chosen Remnant" simply by adopting post-Christian Jewish Culture for themselves?

All I have to do is switch to eating Kosher, buy a Menorah and VIOLA!? I'm now one of the the Chosen remnant?

All we have are the prophecies, no science. That's good enough for me.

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Which prophesies say modern, multi-ethnic peoples, who choose to adopt post Christian Jewish Culture, fulfill anything relating to Biblical Israel?

keras said:

Re the Jewish people, Jesus described them and what their fate will be. Matthew 3:7-10, Revelation 3:9, Luke 19:27.

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You perceive it that way, The Matthew passage is directed at the leadership, not the Hebrew people proper. I perceive the Revelation passages as speaking about those who do the Replacement Theology or Two House Theology thing. While there is nothing there to uphold that view, there is nothing there that negates it either. And your application of the Luke passage fails to take into account Hosea 5:15 - 6:2.

And back on point. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. For I am adhering to the commandment of Yeshua to love my neighbor as myself. And since the entire earth, all the nations, will be judged on how they treated Israel, it is just good business sense to respect the modern state of Israel as valid. By following this methodology, I have absolutely nothing to lose.

Those that choose to negate modern Israel and negate Hebrew identity to some degree, well, if they are wrong, then it could be a real bad time for them. That is high stakes gambling. Between Mathew 25 and Matthew 7 in conjunction with Joel 3, that should be enough warning. Probably the safe bet is to just shut up and not say anything if one doesn't believe the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of scripture. But by speaking out against Israel, if one finds out they are wrong, it might not be a position they would like to be in with the Lord. Again, with the position I hold, I put nothing about me at risk with the Lord.

Copperhead said:

And back on point. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. For I am adhering to the commandment of Yeshua to love my neighbor as myself.

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I love my neighbor as myself too, even though I recognize modern Israel is not the fulfillment on any biblical prophesy.

It is false to imply the two are mutually exclusive.

And since the entire earth, all the nations, will be judged on how they treated Israel

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When I read the Matthew 25 account of the separation of those on His right hand from those on His left, I don’t see “How you treated Israel” anywhere in the criteria Jesus lists as His criteria for who goes where.

it is just good business sense to respect the modern state of Israel as valid.

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I most certainly respect the modern state of Israel as valid! They are just as valid as Australia, Costa Rica, France, Japan, etc..

No one has said modern Israel is not a valid member of civilized nation states.

Again, it is false to imply otherwise.

I have absolutely nothing to lose.

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Neither do I!

Those that choose to negate modern Israel and negate Hebrew identity to some degree, well, if they are wrong, then it could be a real bad time for them.

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I would suggest it could be real bad for those who blindly accept just anybody’s claim to Be Biblical Israel or Biblical Hebrews just because they make the claim, without holding their claim up to the scriptural criteria to see if it is valid.

I’m curious if your fear of treating Israel poorly extends to its Arab, Muslim citizens & government officials?

Are they also the “Israel” that you say we will be judged for treating poorly?