What is obedience to the gospel?


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TheSeabass

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There’s no mention of water in Ephesians 4, either. You need to stop adding to scripture.

If Rom 6 and Eph 4 are not water baptism, then what kind of baptisms are they since neither mention any thing about any kind of "spirit baptism"?

What is the "one baptism" in effect if it is not Christ's water baptism of the great commission that humans administered, that lasts till the end of time, that saves, that is commanded, that makes one a disciple, that is be taught, where there is a literal burial that one is literally raised up from...….then what is that one baptism? What was the eunuch baptized with?

Per Ephesian 4:5: (my emp)
F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106)

Since there is nothing in the text of Ephesians 4:5 that shows "baptism" is used figuratively then it must be a literal burial in water.

You have yet to provide any proof those verse are not water baptism nor provided any proof as to what type of baptism you think they are referring to.
 
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I didn’t ask if the Bible says what grievous is. I’m pointing out that the verses in question do not say anything about grievous sin. Can you agree with that?

Also, what is your understanding on why the word "grievous" as it is used in Genesis?
Do you think that it means that it is a sin that is exceptionally bad?
If so, then that would be spot on to what Paul says many times in his different letters to the churches.
He talks about exceptional bad sins that will cause one not inherit the Kingdom of God, just as Sodom's destruction was an example to all who will live ungodly thereafter (Please read 2 Peter 2:6).
Paul does not mention minor infractions or faults of character as leading to condemnation.
This is simply a reality of what Paul wrote (Which confirms the rest of Scripture).
 
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Hammster

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The Bible breathes as a whole. I pointed out how Paul refers to what the Bible says elsewhere as grievous sin. Your not wanting to accept that does not undo that truth. Paul does not have to say that these sins are grievous in order for them to be defined as grievous sin in another place of the Bible.

Again, please address the verses in the OP, and explain how my interpretation on those verses does not work according to the Bible.
Please don’t try to say that I’m not accepting a truth. You are the one adding to Romans 6, not me.

So addressing Romans 6:1-2, you are incorrect if you think he’s talking about grievous sin as opposed to all sin.
 
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Hammster

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If Rom 6 and Eph 4 are not water baptism, then what kind of baptisms are they since neither mention any thing about any kind of "spirit baptism"?
Romans 6 is clear. We are baptized into Christ.
 
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Hammster

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Also, what is your understanding on why the word "grievous" as it is used in Genesis?
Do you think that it means that it is a sin that is exceptionally bad?
If so, then that would be spot on to what Paul says many times in his different letters to the churches.
He talks about exceptional bad sins that will cause one not inherit the Kingdom of God, just as Sodom's destruction was an example to all who will live ungodly thereafter (Please read 2 Peter 2:6).
Paul does not mention minor infractions or faults of character as leading to condemnation.
This is simply a reality of what Paul wrote (Which confirms the rest of Scripture).
I thought you wanted to discuss a certain passage. Let’s stick with that, and then we can move on.
 
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Romans 6 is clear. We are baptized into Christ.

That is an oversimplification of Romans 6 that would not be entirely accurate.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
(Romans 6:6-7).

Galatians 5:24 says something similar. It says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
 
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Please don’t try to say that I’m not accepting a truth. You are the one adding to Romans 6, not me.

So addressing Romans 6:1-2, you are incorrect if you think he’s talking about grievous sin as opposed to all sin.

While you are entitled to your own way of handling the Bible, I tend to disagree with what appears to be an isolation of a verse or two alone within that chapter without looking at the rest of the Bible (i.e. without looking at the rest of the book, or other books of the Bible, etc). I believe that we have to look at verses in light of the rest of Scripture. Look at Paul's condemnation of sin (Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:28-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Colossians 3:5-7, and Ephesians 5:3-5), and it is always on serious sins and not minor transgressions or faults of character. When Paul says shall we continue in sin, this would be in reference to the sins he mentioned that condemn a person. Unless of course you can find a verse that proves that even minor transgressions or faults of character can condemn a person, as well. Please take note we are talking about minor transgression after a person has believed in Jesus as their Savior. For Paul is saying, "shall we continue in sin?"

Also, Genesis talks about "grievous sin." If this relates to what Paul is talking about in Romans 6 (based on the rest of what Paul has stated in his entire letter to the Romans), then it applies here. For Paul mentions the same sin in Romans 1 that is mentioned in Genesis as being the kind of sin that is very grievous. Romans 6 flows out of Romans 1 as a part of Paul's entire letter (or entire discussion) to the church in Rome.
 
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Hammster

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That is an oversimplification of Romans 6 that would not be entirely accurate.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
(Romans 6:6-7).

Galatians 5:24 says something similar. It says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
There was a context.
 
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Okay, I am moving on from this discussion if you do not explain things more with the Bible to defend your viewpoint as being superior, my friend.

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree about the Bible).
 
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Hammster

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While you are entitled to your own way of handling the Bible, I tend to disagree with what appears to be an isolation of a verse or two alone within that chapter without looking at the rest of the Bible (i.e. without looking at the rest of the book, or other books of the Bible, etc). I believe that we have to look at verses in light of the rest of Scripture. Look at Paul's condemnation of sin (Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:28-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Colossians 3:5-7, and Ephesians 5:3-5), and it is always on serious sins and not minor transgressions or faults of character. When Paul says shall we continue in sin, this would be in reference to the sins he mentioned that condemn a person. Unless of course you can find a verse that proves that even minor transgressions or faults of character can condemn a person, as well. Please take note we are talking about minor transgression after a person has believed in Jesus as their Savior. For Paul is saying, "shall we continue in sin?"

Also, Genesis talks about "grievous sin." If this relates to what Paul is talking about in Romans 6 (based on the rest of what Paul has stated in his entire letter to the Romans), then it applies here. For Paul mentions the same sin in Romans 1 that is mentioned in Genesis as being the kind of sin that is very grievous. Romans 6 flows out of Romans 1 as a part of Paul's entire letter (or entire discussion) to the church in Rome.
Just so I’m clear, your argument is that because Paul talks about grievous sins elsewhere, that’s what he’s talking about here?
 
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Okay, I am moving on from this discussion if you do not explain things more with the Bible, my friend.

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree about the Bible).
You weren’t part of that discussion. ;)
 
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Just so I’m clear, your argument is that because Paul talks about grievous sins elsewhere, that’s what he’s talking about here?

Yes, because Paul does not say that continuing in minor transgressions or faults of character can condemn you. Paul mentions how living in sin (i.e. walking or living after the flesh) can condemn a person in Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13. We know by Paul's references to other kinds of sins that can condemn a person (Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:28-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Colossians 3:5-7, and Ephesians 5:3-5). Nowhere does Paul say anything about minor transgressions or the sin not unto death condemning a person.
 
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Hammster

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Yes, because Paul does not say that continuing in minor transgressions or faults of character can condemn you. Paul mentions how living in sin (i.e. walking or living after the flesh) can condemn a person in Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13. We know by Paul's references to other kinds of sins that can condemn a person (Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:28-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Colossians 3:5-7, and Ephesians 5:3-5). Nowhere does Paul say anything about minor transgressions or the sin not unto death condemning a person.
Okay. Do you think that if a person refrain his entire life from grievous sins, that they wouldn’t need salvation?
 
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Okay. Do you think that if a person refrain his entire life from grievous sins, that they wouldn’t need salvation?

Every person needs salvation in Jesus Christ. They cannot be forgiven or saved without first believing in Jesus for salvation. Jesus cleans the past slate of a person. This the first step or stage in the salvation process (i.e. the Justification process). The Lord our God then moves in the life of a believer to live holy and to obey His commands. This is Sanctification process and it is the next step or stage in the salvation process. But one cannot put the cart before the horse. Good works flow out of believer because the Lord lives in them after they accepted Jesus as their Savior and they believed in his death and resurrection for salvation.
 
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bcbsr

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What is obedience to the gospel?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
Obeying the gospel involves believing it.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?

In Romans 10 Paul contrasts those who seek justification through obedience to the law (as salvation by works Christians also do), with those who believing the gospel abandon seeking justification by obedience to the law and replace it with trusting in Christ, as it is written "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way ... that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." Rom 10:6,9-13

That's obedience to the gospel

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Heb 3:19 So we see that they (salvation by works Christians) could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience (of the salvation by works Christians)

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Confidence, trust, faith, these are the things that salvation by works Christians lack and as such are disqualified.
 
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Obeying the gospel involves believing it.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?

In Romans 10 Paul contrasts those who seek justification through obedience to the law (as salvation by works Christians also do), with those who believing the gospel abandon seeking justification by obedience to the law and replace it with trusting in Christ, as it is written "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way ... that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." Rom 10:6,9-13

That's obedience to the gospel

I agree. Calling upon the name of Lord is an action or a work.
Sometimes it involves 1 John 1:9.
God's grace. How sweet the sound.
Nobody can be saved without God's grace as their entrance gate and as their foundation.
But obedience or faithfulness to the Lord doesn't stop there.
Why would it unless one is loyal to something else other than God, right?

Anyways, what do you make of verses like Galatians 5:24 that says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? Romans 6 says something similar. Jesus says if we do not take up our cross we are not worthy of Him. What does Jesus mean by that?

Anyways, when you read Romans 10, you also have to read Romans 11:22 that says this:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

So it's a balance. God's grace and being faithful to Him by continuing in his goodness (or good ways).

You said:
Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Heb 3:19 So we see that they (salvation by works Christians) could not enter in because of unbelief.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience (of the salvation by works Christians)

If you were to skip back a chapter we read this.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:11-14).

Anyways, Hebrews 4:2 says, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

They did not mix in faith for them that heard it. They did not believe in Jesus as their Savior.

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16).

Certain Hebrews were not coming bold before the throne of grace to be forgiven by Jesus.
This was not an issue of Grace by Faith + Works Faith.

The reference to "Ceasing from own's works" is ceasing from the Jewish man made religious system that did not even obey God's Old Covenant ways (even when the Old Covenant was in effect before the cross). The Pharisees made salvation into a system of man directed works alone salvationism without God's grace. This is evident if you were to read the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector so as to cry out unto God for forgiveness over his sin.

You said:
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

But if you were to skip back up to verses 12-13, it says a person's heart can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and they can depart from the living of God as a result.

You said:
Confidence, trust, faith, these are the things that salvation by works Christians lack and as such are disqualified.

That is strange. That is not what I read in Matthew 7:23. Jesus does not say, "Depart from me because you did not believe in my finished work on the cross alone and you trusted to do good works in addition to my grace." Jesus actually says words that are the exact opposite to that line of thinking. Jesus says to certain believers who did certain good works that He did not know them and that they worked iniquity or sin. So yes. Iniquity or sin is enough for the Lord Jesus to say to a believer to depart from Him. It's in red letters as plain as day (or black and white letters depending on your Bible) in Matthew 7:23.
 
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Hammster

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Every person needs salvation in Jesus Christ. They cannot be forgiven or saved without first believing in Jesus for salvation. Jesus cleans the past slate of a person. This the first step or stage in the salvation process (i.e. the Justification process). The Lord our God then moves in the life of a believer to live holy and to obey His commands. This is Sanctification process and it is the next step or stage in the salvation process. But one cannot put the cart before the horse. Good works flow out of believer because the Lord lives in them after they accepted Jesus as their Savior and they believed in his death and resurrection for salvation.
So this whole notion of grievous sin isn’t really relevant.
 
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@Hammster

Moving on unless you address the verses in the OP in a more clear and concise way. Please give me a detailed commentary that supports your view or understanding on the Scripture verses in the OP. Please how my belief or interpretation is not correct in light of what these verses say.
 
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Moving on unless you address the verses in the OP in a more clear and concise way.
Please give me a detailed commentary that supports your view or understanding on the passage and show how my belief or interpretation is not correct.
I am addressing Romans 6. I’m trying to understand why you insist on referring to sin in vv 1 and 2 as grievous. How does grievous sin versus all sin change your understanding?
 
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I am addressing Romans 6. I’m trying to understand why you insist on referring to sin in vv 1 and 2 as grievous. How does grievous sin versus all sin change your understanding?

No. I am looking for more of a commentary. Post the verses that I quoted, and then offer your own commentary to what they say. At least a partial commentary or something. My point here is that the verses have to line up with what you are saying so as to show the superiority of your interpretation over mine.

Side Note:

I already addressed the issue of "grievous sin" in Romans 6. Unless you can prove that Paul did not refer to sins that did not condemn in other parts of the book of Romans and or his other letters, your point is moot. Grievous sin was clearly condemned in the verse I brought forth in Genesis. Are you saying that Paul did not condemn certain sins? If so, whey do you think he was not referring to sins that do not condemn in Romans 6?
 
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