CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

Hammster

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Don’t forget the other pet verse I take out of context that I quote also, which shows s how to remain “in Christ”.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


And this pet verse also



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



You what’s strange about your belief?


You claim that Christians don’t sin, while at the same time, claiming that these scriptures that teach to keep His commandments are taken “out of context”.


Which is it?




JLB
I never once said that Christians don’t sin.
 
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JLB777

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I never once said that Christians don’t sin.


Here is your quote.


Christians don’t practice those things. That was Paul’s point.


What things are you referring to, that Christians don’t practice, if not sin?





JLB
 
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Hammster

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Here is your quote.





What things are you referring to, that Christians don’t practice, if not sin?





JLB
They don’t practice sin. They sin, and repent.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Don’t forget the other pet verse I take out of context that I quote also, which shows s how to remain “in Christ”.
Well, at least it's a relief to know that you admit that you have "pet verses" and that you take them out of context.
 
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FreeGrace2

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We don’t practice sin. We sin, but we repent.
Sure, we are supposed to. And don't forget confessing those sins.

But where does the Bible teachd or say that all believers always repent?

Aren't you aware of Paul's concern regarding some of the Corinthian believers?

2 Cor 12:20,21
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Now, are you going to make the claim that Paul was referring to unbelievers within the congregation?

Or are you going to face the reality of these verses?
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"Kris Jordan,

[Having walked with the Lord for over 30 years now and hearing both sides of the debate (and researching the scriptures feverishly), my personal opinion is this:]
There is only one truth ,not two


[We are saved and forgiven when we choose to believe Jesus for what He did for us on the cross,]
No salvation is not up to you and what you do. It is all of God Jonah 2:9.
No person seeks God by themselves psalm 14:1-3

[thereby accepting God's free gift of salvation by faith.]
Believers believe because God enables them to believe
eph2:8-10

[The only way I can see an individual becoming "unsaved" would be if they no longer choose to believe ]
Here again , you have the sinner choosing his destiny and to be saved or unsaved. God is in control of biblical salvation

[Jesus for what He did for them on the cross, since He is the only means for salvation.]


Jesus is not "the only means" for salvation...He has ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION for his people. This is a big difference.
[God never forces us into the Kingdom and He doesn't push us out
.]
God makes us willing in the day of His power Psalm110:3
[He always wants people to repent and be saved (2 Peter 3:9), but the choice is always up to us to either accept or reject it at any given time.]
No...it is always up to God. In 2 pet.3:9 everyone that is spoken of, is going to be saved.


 
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Hammster

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Sure, we are supposed to. And don't forget confessing those sins.

But where does the Bible teachd or say that all believers always repent?

Aren't you aware of Paul's concern regarding some of the Corinthian believers?

2 Cor 12:20,21
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Now, are you going to make the claim that Paul was referring to unbelievers within the congregation?

Or are you going to face the reality of these verses?
Why wouldn’t he be referring to the unbelievers in the congregation. It’s obvious that he’s concerned. Maybe it’s because he knows that Christians repent.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why wouldn’t he be referring to the unbelievers in the congregation.
Because there wouldn't be any. Obviously. Most Gentiles views Christians as idiots and persecuted them. Why would unbelievers be in such congregations?

They didn't have liberal churches then, like we do today, where there are many unbelievers sitting in pews.

It’s obvious that he’s concerned. Maybe it’s because he knows that Christians repent.
Re-read 2 Cor 12:20,21. I think you missed what he wrote.

Why would Paul be concerned if Christians repent? Problem solved. Nothing to be concerned about.

Paul's concern is precisely because Christians NEED to reprent, and as we see in the Corinthian church, many hadn't yet. That was Paul's concern.

btw, concerning the idea that some of the epistles were addressed to unbelievers in congregations, what specific verses give us that idea? And I'm not referring to the "false brethren" that were infiltrating the churches. They were spies with an agenda.

And the way Paul addressed his epistles makes clear who he was addressing and teaching; believers.

So your notion about unbelievers is unfounded and unsupported from Scripture.
 
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Hammster

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Can you share some scripture that says it’s impossible for born again Christians to practice the works of the flesh?


JLB
God won’t let us

How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.
— Psalm 32:1-4

You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11
 
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FreeGrace2

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JLB777 said:
Can you share some scripture that says it’s impossible for born again Christians to practice the works of the flesh?
God won’t let us
There's not much I agree about with LJB's opinions and theories, but on this one I do.

Because the Bible backs it up.

Are you aware of what John called the "sin unto death" in 1 John 5:16? He was referring to God's act of ultimate discipline whereby the believer is simply taken out of this life.

We see this in Acts 5 with Ananias and Sapphire. And please don't suggest that they were unbelievers. Why would God kill unbelievers for doing only what they can do?

We see the potential for physical death for the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5.

We see the entire first generation of the Exodus crowd who all died before entering the promised land because of their failure to believe God's promise to them. This included Moses himself, who you can't argue that he wasn't saved. Only Joshua and Caleb entered the land from the first generation, because they believed God's promise about the promised land.

And this is what Paul thought about the whole deal. 1 Cor 10 -
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. {this isn't literal but spiritual}
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

As if that isn't enough evidence, why did Paul include these verses in ch 10?

v.6 - Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

v.11 - These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

So, what happened to the first generation is an example to us (believers).

How can any unbeliever become "an example" for any believer? Apples to oranges.

Now, JLB will say these are examples of loss of salvation, but I know that you know better.

So, please explain how the first generation, minus Joshua and Caleb, became examples for believers today.
 
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Hillsage

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God NEVER commands people to save themselves. He promises to save those who believe. Totally different.
Actually he kind of did, but through Peter.

Acts 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

And "saving yourselves" has to do with 'working out your salvation with fear and trembling.[phil 2:12] But that "saving" only applies to the salvation of your soul and not your spirit. Spirit salvation gets you into heaven, and the degree of your soul that you get sanctified/saved determines your rewards when you get to heaven.

Only those believers who keep His commandments will abide in Him, and He in them. And this is all about fellowship, not salvation.
I'm going to disagree. Us in Him is about relationship and Him in us comes as a result of fellowship. And that fellowship requires keeping commandments. Your relationship doesn't.

1JO 3:24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

Do you hold to the naive view that in all marriages, there is fellowship at all times?
This is a verse in confirmation with what I just said. Your relationship remains in a marriage even if your fellowship does not. And when it comes to blood or spirit relationship that can't be changed.

IOW, your birth father is your birth father and that relationship can never be changed. You can change you name, become emancipated legally, but he is still, and always will be your father.

But your fellowship is another story. Even the prodigal son was still the father's son. Even though their fellowship was dead.

LUK 15:24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to make merry.

The same thing is true for us as born again believers. We can break fellowship with the father and go sin like a sailor. We will reap what we sow though, temporally speaking. But our eternal relationship cant be changed.

Thats how I see it all work out anyway. ;)
 
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JLB777

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JLB POST: Can you share a scripture that says it’s impossible for Christians to practice the works of the flesh?


God won’t let us


God does not force anyone to walk in righteousness.


If He did, all mankind would be saved.



Paul warns Christians, not to partake of the wrath of God along with the sons of disobedience -


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7



JLB
 
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Hammster

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God does not force anyone to walk in righteousness.
Not true

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12:5-11
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
God NEVER commands people to save themselves. He promises to save those who believe. Totally different.
Actually he kind of did, but through Peter.

Acts 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
This command has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but everything to do with spiritual growth and progressive sanctification.

And "saving yourselves" has to do with 'working out your salvation with fear and trembling.[phil 2:12] But that "saving" only applies to the salvation of your soul and not your spirit.
Salvation needs to be understood in 3 tenses.

Past tense salvation: we HAVE BEEN SAVED from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense salvation: we ARE BEING SAVED from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense salvation: we WILL BE SAVED from the presence of sin. Glorifiation.

Phil 2:12 addresses the present tense understanding of salvation.

I said:
"Only those believers who keep His commandments will abide in Him, and He in them. And this is all about fellowship, not salvation."
I'm going to disagree. Us in Him is about relationship and Him in us comes as a result of fellowship. And that fellowship requires keeping commandments. Your relationship doesn't.
When the words "in Him" are used, it refers to our position in Him. When the word "abide" is included with "in Him", it refers to reciprocal fellowship.

This is a verse in confirmation with what I just said. Your relationship remains in a marriage even if your fellowship does not. And when it comes to blood or spirit relationship that can't be changed.
I fully agree.

IOW, your birth father is your birth father and that relationship can never be changed. You can change you name, become emancipated legally, but he is still, and always will be your father.
Absolutely. Which is why eternal security is true.

But your fellowship is another story. Even the prodigal son was still the father's son. Even though their fellowship was dead.
Yes again!! :oldthumbsup:

The same thing is true for us as born again believers. We can break fellowship with the father and go sin like a sailor. We will reap what we sow though, temporally speaking. But our eternal relationship cant be changed.
True.
 
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JLB777

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Not true

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12:5-11


Of course God corrects us and disciplines us when we disobey.


This is not forcing a person to obey His commandments, but requiring them to obey His commandments.



If everyone obeyed Him then there would be no crime, no jails, no prisons.



God does not force anyone to walk in righteousness.


If He did, all mankind would be saved.



Paul warns Christians, not to partake of the wrath of God along with the sons of disobedience -


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7



JLB
 
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Hammster

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This is not forcing a person to obey His commandments, but requiring them to obey His commandments.
I said God won’t let us. I didn’t say God forces us.
 
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I'd be very interested in how you explain any real difference between "won't let us" and "forces us".
Is there any force in Hebrews 12?
 
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