Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

jgr · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Sometimes 'ya'll', a collective pronoun.

Scripture for that?

OldWiseGuy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
Now come on, you are just trying too hard. Those of us in the pre-trib camp are fully aware that there are still Hebrews among the nations. There has never been any dispute. But like happened when the Hebrews were allowed to return from Babylon, only a remnant did. Nothing new under the sun.

And there is no need to fake anything. Ezekiel is very clear about the regathering of the Hebrew people, and that it would be in unbelief. And also good 'ol Zeke gave us quite a bit of information in that 430 years of punishment the Hebrew people were to endure for failing to observe the sabbatical years. And since only a remnant returned from Babylon, according to Zeke again and tying in Leviticus 26, we can know the exact timing when Israel would once again be a sovereign nation.... May 1948. The math is so transparent a grade schooler could easily do it. I really shouldn't have to show it again, but if anyone needs to see the math, i will go thru it step by step again.

You are still conflating the house of Israel with the house of Judah. Ezekiel goes to great pains to address each individually. According to Ezekiel 4, and using popular dates, the Assyrian captivity of the house of Israel continued for 214 years after the captivity of the house of Judah ended.

jgr · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Do you apply this literalism to the whole bible? That can seriously impede your understanding of scripture. The bible is a work of literature, complete with many literary devices.

A dispensational futurist questioning biblical literalism??

I'm aghast.

Copperhead · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
You are still conflating the house of Israel with the house of Judah. Ezekiel goes to great pains to address each individually.

No, you are still under the wild idea that there is the 10 lost tribes. Never was. 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah all show us that. And those who still may be out among the nations are from ALL the tribes. And Zeke addresses them individually, but what he is saying applies to both. Isaiah did the same thing. Both of these guys wrote their books when the two kingdoms were still in place.

In Ezekiel 36, which is apropos to the the current situation, House of Israel does not mean the northern kingdom but the collective House of Jacob (Israel) which is all the tribes. So many folks forget that Jacob's name was changed to Israel by Yahweh.

When Ezra brought his group back from Babylon, they were called Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. When Nehemiah brought his remnant back from Babylon, they were called Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. The terms were interchangeable. And if one looks at 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah collectively, they will find that 8 of the northern tribes, both southern tribes, and the tribe of Levi are all part of the collective. By the time of the Hasmonean period, Jew and Israelite had become interchangeable terms.

Paul calls himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and a Israelite. What? Didn't he know? Even he understood what I am stating. That a few goof ball rabbinic "scholars" and a sect of the Christian church hasn't figured it out doesn't mean it isn't valid.

OldWiseGuy · May 27, 2019

jgr said:
Scripture for that?

Please.

OldWiseGuy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
No, you are still under the wild idea that there is the 10 lost tribes. Never was. 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah all show us that. And those who still may be out among the nations are from ALL the tribes. And Zeke addresses them individually, but what he is saying applies to both. Isaiah did the same thing. Both of these guys wrote their books when the two kingdoms were still in place.

In Ezekiel 36, which is apropos to the the current situation, House of Israel does not mean the northern kingdom but the collective House of Jacob (Israel) which is all the tribes. So many folks forget that Jacob's name was changed to Israel by Yahweh.

You really should actually study the text of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel doesn't have the all of Israel coming together until the millennium; the two sticks.

Recall that Jesus said he was "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", then he departed 'Jewry' and began ministering in Galilee and Samaria.

Copperhead · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Ezekiel doesn't have the all of Israel coming together until the millennium; the two sticks.

Recall that Jesus said he was "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", then he departed 'Jewry' and began ministering in Galilee and Samaria.

Read Ezekiel 36 again. There is no delineation. House of Israel = House of Jacob = all the tribes. Ezekiel 37 just expands on Ezekiel 36. The two sticks are considered one. There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original. Read both chapters as one. They flow together and compliment each other.

OldWiseGuy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
No, you are still under the wild idea that there is the 10 lost tribes. Never was. 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah all show us that. And those who still may be out among the nations are from ALL the tribes. And Zeke addresses them individually, but what he is saying applies to both. Isaiah did the same thing. Both of these guys wrote their books when the two kingdoms were still in place.

In Ezekiel 36, which is apropos to the the current situation, House of Israel does not mean the northern kingdom but the collective House of Jacob (Israel) which is all the tribes. So many folks forget that Jacob's name was changed to Israel by Yahweh.

When Ezra brought his group back from Babylon, they were called Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. When Nehemiah brought his remnant back from Babylon, they were called Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. The terms were interchangeable. And if one looks at 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah collectively, they will find that 8 of the northern tribes, both southern tribes, and the tribe of Levi are all part of the collective. By the time of the Hasmonean period, Jew and Israelite had become interchangeable terms.

Paul calls himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and a Israelite. What? Didn't he know? Even he understood what I am stating. That a few goof ball rabbinic "scholars" and a sect of the Christian church hasn't figured it out doesn't mean it isn't valid.

I'll see you chapter 36 and raise you chapter 37.

OldWiseGuy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
Read Ezekiel 36 again. There is no delineation. House of Israel = House of Jacob = all the tribes. Ezekiel 37 just expands on Ezekiel 36. The two sticks are considered one. There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original. Read both chapters as one. They flow together and compliment each other.

The theme is the millennium when they will at last be joined together, for the first time since Rehoboam and Jeroboam.

Copperhead · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
I'll see you chapter 36 and raise you chapter 37.

There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original autographs. 37 is just a continuation of 36 and amplifies it. There is no conflict. The House of Jacob (Israel) has always been both Israel and Judah since they came into the land under the leadership of Joshua. Only folks with agendas still stubbornly keep these separate. Either that, or they are having trouble remembering that Jacob's name was changed to Israel, so House of Israel can mean both entities collectively. And chapter 37 shows us that is what is meant by showing us that during this restoration of chapter 36, both Israel and Judah are considered one entity.

And again, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah all show us that all the tribes were intermingled before, during, and after the Babylonian Exile. 4 of the tribes are specifically referenced, present, and accounted for in the NT. One of them a northern tribe. Paul considered and labeled himself a Jew, Benjamite, and Israelite. If he knew that Jew and Israel were interchangeable terms, and that it was all one collective body, then there is no reason to assume any different now. Especially since Paul was probably the most learned Rabbi of his day and also an apostle of Yeshua. If anyone can top those credentials, then they might have a leg to stand on in questioning things. Paul never even hinted at a Jew / Israel distinction like the one going on now.

Copperhead · May 27, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
The theme is the millennium when they will at last be joined together, for the first time since Rehoboam and Jeroboam.

Not hardly. Only the latter part of 37 which states the culmination of the restoration has an illusion to the Millennial kingdom. But they are considered all collective Israel (both Israel and Judah) before that. The battle of Ezekiel 38 comes after the restoration to the land of Ezekiel 36-37. And the Ezekiel 38 battle occurs before the Millennial kingdom.

keras · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
Only folks with agendas still stubbornly keep these separate.

Only folks with the agenda of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church and the visible Jewish State of Israel remaining on earth, stubbornly combine the two Houses.

Ezekiel 37 is an unfulfilled prophecy, proved by how Israel has not yet received the Spiritual blessings as promised. And do not think the Jews will be the recipients of those promises; their fate is well prophesied. Luke 19:27, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, +

Dave L · May 28, 2019

Copperhead said:
Well, Satan couldn't give it if he didn't own it, it would have been just empty rhetoric, and there would never have been any temptation involved. But the scripture said the Lord was tempted by Satan. So.. NO... Yeshua has NOT always ruled the nations with a rod of iron.

Matthew 4:8-9 (NKJV) Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Satan works for God. God created him and keeps him alive.

Dave L · May 28, 2019

Douggg said:
Dave, God is sovereign over all of creation. But it is not until the seventh angel sounds, that God asserts His power over the nations, taking the kingdoms of this world away from Satan's grip, to be kingdoms of God and of his Christ. It is future, but not too far into the future.

Revelaton 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

You need to flee, run for your life from Dispensationalism. Study Jesus and his description of the Kingdom before even attempting to understand Revelation.

Copperhead · May 28, 2019

keras said:
Only folks with the agenda of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church and the visible Jewish State of Israel remaining on earth, stubbornly combine the two Houses.

Ezekiel 37 is an unfulfilled prophecy, proved by how Israel has not yet received the Spiritual blessings as promised. And do not think the Jews will be the recipients of those promises; their fate is well prophesied. Luke 19:27, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, +

There is another aspect to this that I think many do not consider and stepping back and looking at the overall picture could enlighten.

If I am wrong in my position, what have I really lost? After all, Joel 3 and Matthew 25 are pretty clear that the nations will be judged on how they treated Israel. And it doesn't go well for those who diss them. And we are told to love others as we love ourselves. So even if I am wrong in my position, I see no downside positionally before the Lord.

If, however, those that choose to negate modern Israel and it turns out they are indeed a fulfillment, then the consequences are far greater. Can one be positionally in favor with the Lord if they choose to deny what He has said? If the Lord has placed such a standard as "I will bless them that bless you and curse those who curse you" regarding the Hebrew people, then what is the result of negating them? When one takes a look at Joel 3, Matthew 25:21-44, and Matthew 7:21-23 side by side, it can lead one to be a little cautious.

I see nothing but a win-win for my position. If I am wrong, then I still loved my neighbor as myself in regards to Israel. If I am right, then I followed the prescription to bless Israel. In both cases, I am positionally in tune with what the Lord has commanded. Nothing lost and everything to gain.

But y'all choose your own path to take. I will not be held accountable for that.

Douggg · May 28, 2019

Dave L said:
You need to flee, run for your life from Dispensationalism.

Dave, look at my personal description to the left.

"anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist"

I am not a dispensationalist. I am a futurist though.

Regardless, it doesn't change what it says in Revelation 11:15-17.
____________________________________________________________

Dave L · May 28, 2019

Douggg said:
Dave, look at my personal description to the left.

"anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist"

I am not a dispensationalist. I am a futurist though.

Regardless, it doesn't change what it says in Revelation 11:16-17.
____________________________________________________________

Same difference in the end.............

parousia70 · May 28, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
A remnant of Jews returned.

Name one.

parousia70 · May 28, 2019

Copperhead said:
Oh come now. You can't just leave us hanging! Inquiring minds want to know! Proof please!

Copper old friend, surely you know I do not need to prove a negative.
The onus of "proof" is on the claimant of the positive.

So, right back atchya... and Don't leave us hanging!

Proof Please!

parousia70 · May 28, 2019

Copperhead said:
the Israelites have returned and are likewise establishing the nation in the land of Canaan.

Can you name one of these "Israelites" who have returned?

How about this woman?

What tribe is she descended from?

Would you assert she is one of these "Returned Israelite" people who was once dispersed from the biblical, theocratic Hebrew nation but has now returned, and that her specific return was prophesied in the pages of Scripture?

Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

Did event of Israel 1948 fulfill any Bible prophecy?

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Yes

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